"06-11-15: Bob_reynolds
I think the standard advice of replacing an AV type of product with an analog preamp is overly simplistic. Maybe if your music has limited bass, then electronics and such may have a bigger impact on sound.
You need to get some listening experience. I know that you only go by specs to pick equipment. But what you're suggesting will do absolutely nothing to fix the problem. I know you don't like me, so forget what I have to say on the subject. But look at the other comments.
"06-10-15: Loomisjohnson
try using your oppo as a preamp (connect your amps to the oppo instead of the marantz) and see if it makes a difference"
"06-10-15: Pkelly1504
I would recommend a 2 channel preamp with home theater bypass."
"06-10-15: Akg_ca
Just about any quality build high-current 2 channel integrated amp will
handily best virtually any AVR for 2-channel audio performance.
As good as the the AVR can be, you cannot realistically expect it to fully
compete in a 2 channel arena ..... full stop."
"Keep that one in mind. I'm using the UMC200 with an Oppo 105. I let the Oppo do all of the processing. The only thing the Emotiva does is 7.1 volume control and occasionally radio or other analogue stuff. The sound is great. The one really strong point with the 105 over the 103 is audio. Better processors and dedicated 2 channel out."
Every single person who responded to this thread all made similar recommendations. That by itself doesn't make us right, but at some point you may want to look into why we make these types of recommendations in the first place. While there's always some risk when you buy a piece of gear, we're really not guessing. A 2 channel preamp is by far, the most likely solution to this problem.
"But, in general, the several dB variations in the bass region (300 Hz and below) caused by room modes seems to be a more logical cause of sound quality issues. So, I'd consider a Marantz AV8801 while you can save $2100."
There's nothing logical about that statement at all. The OP never said that he had a bass problem. Why single that one issue out, and ignore dozens of other possibilities as to what the problem may be.
I know we've been back and forth on this topic in other threads. Looking back on it all, there is one thing you can fault me on. And that is, I've really never given you the chance to prove me wrong. In all fairness, its something I regret. Why don't we do this. Instead of me just telling you your ideas are no good like I always do, maybe you can better explain the way you do things. If I were to give you specs on something like an amp or preamp, can you tell me what you would expect it to sound like? I'd really like to know if something like that is possible. If I turn out to be wrong, I have no problem admitting it. |
"06-10-15: Pkelly1504
I would recommend a 2 channel preamp with home theater bypass."
I agree. If you don't have a good preamp, get that first. |
"06-15-15: Philkoan
If I replace my current Marantz SR7007 by the AV8801, will the AV8801 deliver quality stereo? Should I put a DAC such as the Oppo HA-1 between the AV8801 and a pair Emotiva XPA-1s?"
There's too many variables in the equation to give an accurate answer. If I had to guess, I would say it will probably sound the same, or better by a small amount. My position is that if you want good 2 channel, then buy 2 channel equipment. If you read through our posts again, you'll see that we all offer similar advice. (Except for Bob Reynolds. He's a very nice guy that means well, but he just doesn't have the experience to make a recommendation like this.). Also, if you get another receiver, you really need to consider the money you're throwing away. A huge portion of a HT receivers cost goes to multichannel features. If you don't need them, why buy them?
I assume you live in the US. If so, why not give The Cable Company a call. They specialize in lending out high end audio components and accessories. Ask them to send you a couple of 2 channel preamps. The best way to judge any component is to try it your own system. |
"06-17-15: Philkoan
I don't have a chance to try some quality preamps, but I think direct connection from the Oppo 103D to a pair of Emotiva XPA-1 gives the purest sound I have ever heard."
I'm glad you found a solution. The only thing better than getting a really good preamp, is getting a bad one out of your system. Good job. |
I bet you guys thought I was a little hard on Bob. lol. He does have a way with words. Take these for example.
"A problem with the 2-channel solutions suggested is that they all ignore the speaker/room interaction."
I see a couple of things here I don't quite get. First is the 2 channel solution recommended fixed the OP's problem. Philhoan has declared that he's getting the best sound he's ever heard. I say, we should just het him be so he can enjoy his system, but I guess I'm not the expert that you are. The second thing is that you're factually incorrect when you say that the 2 channel solutions recommended ignore room/speaker interrogation. The real beauty of the traditional 2 channel solution is that it allows you to keep room integration and electronics 2 separate entities. You're statement that we ignore it is just ignorance on your part. You don't need a home theater preamp to get a flat response. People have been doing without them for years.
"It's still a mystery to me how such a perfectionist group is so willing to accept imperfection when it comes to in room frequency response. At least Richard Vandersteen gets it."
I nearly wet my pants I laughed so hard when I read that. You don't even have Vandersteen speakers. I do, however. Several pairs. You could say I'm a big fan. Since you seem to be speaking for Richard when it comes to what he gets, and does not get, you may want to get your facts straight. The main feature that makes Vandersteen speakers special, it that they are time and phase correct. Its the main reason people buy them. If you use a HT preamp, or any type of room correction device, any adjustments you make, digital or analog, alters phase. Simply put, the answer to your mystery question, at least for Vandersteen speakers, is that it destroys what makes them special. And there's no need to take my word for it, call Vandersteen. He'll get on the phone and tell you himself, in a very mild mannered, low key tone of voice that he's famous for. The answer to your mystery question for other speakers, was already dealt with in the beginning of my post. We deal with the room separately. It's not ignored. |
In one ear and out the other. Bob, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. If I had to explain how clueless you are when it comes to audio, I'd have no choice but to wright a book.
Well Philkoan, you're going to have to start over. We just found out that you really didn't hear the improvements in your system. You're imagining it. From now on, any time you make a change, email Bob with the specs so he can tell you what your system sounds like. You're not to be trusted anymore. |
"The Marantz AV8801 is definitely a steal for $1495 although I can get the Marantz AV8802 for $3200, more than twice the AV8801 with just a few atmos movies. Just as Bob recommended, just live with the AV8801 for three years, then move to 8802 or 8803.
My second option is add a good CD player such as Cambridge Audio 851 series and a good stereo preamp or run directly to the Emo XPA-1. What do you think?
Philkoan (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
I won't speak for the others, but at this point, I can't help. Now were back to what Bob recommends? Yesterday Bob told you that you were imaging the improvements you heard. In this hobby, the only learning comes from experience. Bob hasn't done that yet. And its not my opinion either. I can quote him where he fully admits he does not listen to a piece of equipment to tell how it sounds. All he needs to do is look at the specs. That's a talent that I don't have, so I'll leave you in his hands. |
"I've realized that you and Bob have different views in experiencing the quality of sound, and the differences sometimes go from rich knowledge to subjective emotion that usually influences our judgments as well as reading other's point of view."
I have no problem with specs. My differences with Bob are not that he does things one way, and I do them another way. All of his listening experience comes from reading articles, and he only picks the specs that he likes to talk about. If you like, I can quote him saying that he does not have to listen to a piece of gear in order to know what it sounds like. Those are his words.
And look at what we have here in this thread. If he is so good with specs and how to apply them, then why wouldn't he address any of the technical matters that I brought up? He refused to acknowledge that you still deal with room acoustics with 2 channel. He talks about Vandersteen but refuses to consider the technical matters I brought up regarding keeping the speakers time and phase correct using his methods.
And lets not forget his crowning achievement.
"06-11-15: Bob_reynolds
I think the standard advice of replacing an AV type of product with an analog preamp is overly simplistic."
Yet you did just that and got excellent results. Every single person that responded to your thread, except Bob, all recommended a similar solution involving removing the AV preamp, and going with something 2 channel. So what's his answer for your success? You imagined it. Really? He now brings psychology in to all this?
"So, Phil's response was entirely predictable. No big deal, it's normal. But, drawing any conclusion from it is foolish.
Bob_reynolds (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
If that's not arrogance fueled with stupidity, I don't know what is. He's insulting you. Bob just doesn't want to look like a fool so he'll say anything. He could care less about you or your system. What does he know about Psychology? Nothing. Like everything else, he just guesses. I actually have a degree in Psychology, and I could easily make the case that when you made a change in your system, it really did sound different. Is that so hard to believe.
In the end, Philkoan, I can't fault you for anything. I know you are just trying to keep an open mind. And audio is a learning process. Most of us here has suffered, at one time or another, listening to the Bob's of the audio world. I know from experience. I just get a little emotional when I see people making the exact same mistakes that I did. But that's how we learn, so in the end good will come of it.
|
Sorry. I didn't realize that was what you were asking. Its not complicated if you think about it. Just visualize the flow of the signal through the different components.
For stereo, start with the 851C CD player. The signal starts there and goes to the 2 channel preamp, and then to the amp that powers your front L and R speakers. Its a traditional 2 channel setup.
For Theater, start with the Oppo. The signal from the Oppo goes to the HT processor. What's different here is that you can't send signal from your processor to the amp that powers your left and right front speakers because your 2 channel preamp is already connected to it. Instead, you take the signal what would normally go to that amp and you plug the IC's into the the HT bypass input on the 2 channel preamp. Doing it this way allows the 2 preamps to "share" the same poweramp. When you want to listen to music, you just select any input on your 2 channel preamp that has a source connected to it. When you want to watch a movie, you select the HT bypass input in the 2 channel preamp, and that allows the signal from the processor to pass through the 2 channel preamp and on to the amp. Its really just a switch that allows 2 preamps to use the same amp.
Also, you don't have to use one of your sources with just 1 of the preamps. You can connect them to both. An example would be that you would like to connect your Oppo to your theater preamp to play movies and your 2 channel stereo preamp to play SACD's. You would simply run cables from your Oppo to a input on the HT processor for movies, and run cables from the Oppo to an input on the 2 channel pre for music. You can connect all of your sources like this, that way everything will be shared and you won't have to compromise anything. You'll be able to use every feature on every product you have. |
Sorry I made you pull teeth to get it. |
"06-24-15: Philkoan
I've just realized that besides a good CD player and a good DAC, a very good 2 channel preamp is the key and the heart of the system."
Well its about time. lol. I knew we'd make an audiophile out of you. |
