Best value record cleaner/cleaning system

this is thread i posted asking for info 3.5 years ago... glad it is still serving a good purpose

to close the loop i bought an okki nokki some time back... i am very happy with it

I used the VPI 16.5 with a three step process (enzyme, cleaner, ultra pure water rinse) for 15 years. This was when used albums joined my collection and employed a one step for new pressings.  Once that was complete rarely was it revisited. The machine was reliable and a solid performer, though it is a little loud so I used ear plugs.  I have since moved to ultrasonic cleaning and sold the VPI to another who is continuing to achieve good results with its use. 

Hi,  I'm considering a VPI 16.5 ($800) versus a Pro-Ject VC-e ($499) or VC-S2 ($699).
The VCI does not have a reverse button; The VC-E apparently has a hole on the base below the record which is sucked up when spinning the records so the bottom side of the record gets dirty while being cleaned. I heard they have a plate to cover this that they are including in newer models.

I'd appreciate any recommendations, i.e. which brand and model would you recommend and is the reverse feature that important in cleaning albums?

I just got the newest iteration of the Pro-Ject (marketed as the MK II in the UK) and have been pleased with it.  I paid $499, and the dealer threw in a dust cover. I still use my Spin Cleaner for the really dirty records first...don’t want to stress the new baby yet 🙂.   I am still experimenting with my cleaning process.  

The company has a recommended cleaning process of adding drops of their (diluted) cleaning liquid, turn on the machine rotation, use the goat-hair brush to spread the liquid, reverse the rotation and use the brush again, then vacuum two rotations and reverse for two more rotations.  

My dealer recommended another process that he uses for his record cleaningservice: he uses a Spin Cleaner for the initial cleaning of very dirty records, then attaches the record and cover, adds liquid, then gently scrubs with a Mobile Fidelity cleaning brush.  He then vacuums the machine in one direction.  

I have seen a marked improvement in the sound quality, and my cleaning and drying time is halved.  Love the fact the RCM has no platter.  I have had only two minor problems:  the aluminum arm rests on a plastic collar and is so tight I could not manipulate it; a little engine grease fixed that.  Also, the vacuum arm when fully swung over touches the record lock and causes aluminum shavings to fall on the record.   Slightly adjusting the vacuum arm avoids this. The factory-provided liquid seems to work well

Oh dear...

Terry, 
It seems the Vinyl Stack Kit is reasonably priced but does it include a tank and if so what are the exact dimensions. Is a wider tank more handy in practice ? Do they provide any chemicals/solvents, or are they needed at all ? And how much time does it take to clean one record set ?

I agree that ultrasound is the best method, by far. I had a VPI machine, and tested those results against an Elmasonic US machine running at 80 KHz. No contest. The Elmasonic was far superior.

To spin the records I use a spinner from Vinyl Stack: the Ultrasonic Spin Kit. The spacers also protect the labels.

It's a good combination - they both work well, they both look good, and they both have a fine fit and finish. The Elmasonic is German, and looks it; the Vinyl Stack looks German but is domestic. Good companies, good products. Highly recommended.

slaw, I've not read this post for awhile, so going back a month to your comment I'll add this.

While my VPI was set properly as delivered, a friend received one which was not.  He is not a person with much patience so I offered to help.  Contacting VPI I was told (by Mike, though this was several years ago) about the 185 degree setting for the suction tube.  Thinking it through that makes perfect sense, but I agree it should have been in the manual.

slaw,

Very well, I see your situation now. I just got the impression from your previous post that disgusts me. Whatever/by whoever it was meant to be I do not like calling names.

I come from a very different culture, some things are much insulting than in your culture I´d assume.

I haven´t read all this thread and I have no idea what the heck is going on here since that two weeks.

Someone/thing intruders your posts ? That´s another story. Truly annoying.
Contact customer help, they will do their best I strongly believe.
I have been mistreated too. Someone spread misinformation of my activities. Very tiresome.

I will delete my posts here soon ´cos I suddenly lost all interest to this particular thread.

Have a great day

...having said this, and based upon your comment "you've explained your strange behauviour" had an effect on me.

I'll no longer try to be a member that attempts to have a real conversation on music. In fact, I'll most likely go dark.

Happy listening.

harold-not-the-barrel,

There has been an intrusion on my posts.

On another topic that I had started, I made clear yesterday of this fact.

Right now, all I can do is apologize for things (out of my control).

I shut my computer down yesterday and ran all of my Norton system controls in order to do what I could on my end.

I  don't know what else I can do on my end.

FWIW: Looking at our conversations now, I see the (extra, overlay (content) that I advised the Audiogon people two weeks ago. There has been some kind of intrusion regarding my posts here.

Father-in-gay

harold-not-the-barrel,

Your post was misplaced! Should go to another thread?

^ Ghost Riders by Outlaws blows the dust off your cart/cantilever :_) Gotta listen right away...

Maybe what I've failed in getting across is, with steaming, in good lighting...the water/light allows you to actually see anything left on the lp.

I've cleaned lps through my AD/16,5  time and again, still, there are just some times where steaming is THE only way to get an lp clean.

Ex: I was just listening to my Outlaws lps, I pulled the "Live" record out. I had marked previously.."re-steam?". Mind you, this was way before I had my 16.5/AD cleaners.

I was re-steaming under my under-cabinet led light and can see the little "flakes" on the lp that are stubborn, but will come off when you apply first, common sense, then a more aggressive application. These are the types of things that will not come off just through any automated process.

This is why I believe that being able to actually see what's going on while cleaning is essential ti The Best process.

Same here, other machine: Moth RCM/II. 10 years´ faultless service, deep cleaned over a thousand albums. Price app. 500 euros. Noisy but does the job. Highly recommended.

Have had my VPI 16.5 for 4+ years now. No other HiFi purchase has yielded results that equal what the RCM has provided.

Record Doctor V using the mofi brush and the audiotechnica   AT6012 for pre play cleaning.   

bdp24,

Good luck. Let us know how everything works out!

a friend of mine bought a HAAN after watching me using my Mapleshade years ago. I went to his house one day just to test it out. I was disappointed in that unit. Much lower steam pressure, lesser steam pattern..

...the dbtech has much better ergonomics (compared to my Mapleshade) which makes for better contol. It has a very good steam pattern as well. These two things make a difference!

nkonor,

If you can find the dbtech with the larger tank, go for it. That one is a no-brainer.

Are you familiar with the Gem Dandy cleaning system? I've often thought about making my own (simple pvc stand w/ basic tools) but taller to set in my sink. After spreading the fluid on a lp, attach it to this and voila'! I will do it at some point.

ebm,

Yes, I've even used mine to clean out the mold that accumulates inside of an  in-door ice maker. Lots of uses.

After you steam the records you can do your suit as well.

slaw,

Thank you for the tip. I found a half dozen steamers on Amazon. Guess I'll pick one and have at it. Not expensive. Might add to the labor but I will take your judgement on this! 

Thanks
Norb

nkonor,

I've found that all of the hype over protecting the label is just that, hype. Early on in my record cleaning education, before the 16.5 and the AD and the steamer, I use to actually dip my lps into a sink full of distilled water to rinse. I never had one issue with the labels. (Of coarse you don't let them soak.) On older lps where the labels have aged, if they get wet, just blot them off, don't rub. Having said this, if I see my cleaning fluid seep onto a label, I'll blot it off.

While I'm steaming, during the time when the steamer is recharging, I'll blot off the label when necessary. As I mentioned earlier, I hold a record over a sink against my torso while steaming. This allows everything to drain off as much as possible.

Have fun!

Slaw, Rushton and others,

What do you use to protect label during steam cleaning.

Thanks in Advance 
Norb 

Bradf was considerate enough to email me links to information about the "budget-priced" CleanerVinyl version of an osmosis cleaner. At around $700 for the 12-LP version, I do believe I'm gonna get me one!

I purchased mine through Galen Carol Audio.

The main point is/should be, (The VPI (manual).).... to my knowledge (as usual), did not have any information on any of these situations. (When did you find out that VPI specifies the slot should point in any direction?)  When I bought mine, the (manual ?) did not have any of this. This goes to my main point... If this was true during the time frame I was (drooling) about a 16.5, and the reviewers NEVER wrote about this, I can only assume, that the VPI (manual) never included such.? (Also, I asked questions to my dealer at that time.  The response was, as I remember, "It's not a intricate/specialized device..(paraphrasing)

BTW, I get complete drying in 2 revolutions as well. This happened only after I figured everything out for myself.

Please, someone, post one link showing  (any) issues I've posted from any reviewer in as long as the 16.5 has been in production

Happy listening.

slaw, more than reviews (who knows what experience many online posters have?) it seems like both VPI and your dealer were to blame.

I've owned two VPI 16.5s and had none of your problems with either one.  First it is hard to imagine your platter was not secured properly but obviously that somehow slipped through.  Regarding the strong suction, that is simply a function of the angle of the slot in the tube relative to the record surface.  Viewed from the outside end, if the slot points straight down (180 on a 360 degree reference) then the vacuum will be too strong.  If set backwards (< 180 degrees) it will not pick up the fluid.  VPI specifies the slot should be at 185 degrees for efficient vacuuming.  It seems your dealer should have checked that.  The two I've owned have been and I get complete drying in two revolutions.

FWIW: When I was finally able to buy my VPI 16.5 years ago, after reading about it, after dreaming about it, I was so disappointed to learn that it did not work as I had read for years.

Upon first using mine, I found that the vacuum was so strong that the lp would adhere to the vacuum tube while the platter would continue to spin. I found out from my dealer that there was a screw that can be tightened once you poke through the cork platter mat and find the 3 screws that will allow you to remove the platter. Then you can barely access the allen screw (at an angle) that will allow you to tighten the assembly. If this wasn't enough..read on...

I then found out that the pick-up tube would not release as I've read for years, automatically. This, I later found out, on my own, is a very delicate melding of several factors.

(1) The position of the pick-up tube in relationship to the lp, in terms of how much it should be twisted, left or right of center.
(2) How much actual fluid one applies.
(3) How flat a particular lp is

None of the reviews I had ever read prior to this purchase ever talked about this. This purchase, became my first in a long line of events to come, that reminded me of how little one can rely upon the reviewers of products.

Don't know what velvet strips the Okii uses, I've found the Disc Doctor strips to be the best I've used.

jjss49,

You should consider shelling out $30.00 for the steam cleaner I mentioned if only to clean your cleaning tools/velvet lips. Small initial investment, for a large ultimate payoff in terms of replacement velvet strips and ability to clean off any contaminants between cleaning and rinsing cycles.

Happy listening.

Regarding the method I mentioned earlier along with my complete regimen,
cleaning just one lp at a time does take a while. If you start cleaning another lp while your 1st one is in the US cleaner, this reduces time considerably, more of an assembly line approach.

rec'd my okii nokki - really nice machine

my records never sounded better 

sweetness

i bought a used Nitty Gritty here on the Gon. A model 1.0 very happy with it !!!!
The seller The Music Room in Colorado was fantastic to deal with !!!!!
I got all the needed brushes, fluids, etc direct from the factory. Makes a massive difference in noise and sound quality..IMO

I agree with Rhoneman.
I have a VPI 16.5, but I think that cleaning up to 12 records with the Pro or even up to 24 records at a time with the max is probably the only way I am ever goin to get all the records I have cleaned and keep up with the new purchases. Load 12 records at a time, push a button and walk away, while your records are cleaned ultrasonically; all for around $700.00.
Reviewed by Michael Fremer http://www.analogplanet.com/content/cleanervinylcoms-reasonaly-priced-multi-lp-cavitation-based-reco...

http://www.cleanervinyl.com/

I have found steam cleaners on Amazon and videos on You Tube.
My current regime takes (20) minutes per record. Is labor intensive already. The extra step of steam cleaning will add more time and looks messy. I will continue to look into it and imagine ways to accomplish the steam cleaning regime in the most efficient way.
Stll no leads on cost and obtaining an AFI Flat in the USA.. 

@nkonor, 

Rushton's thread links to an article that details all the chemicals etc. and where to buy them, all for ultrasonic, not steam. I use that method and then do 2 wet rinses & vacuum using a manual DIY spinner made from an Ikea lazy susan which works quicker than my VPI 16.5 used to. You can see my description in that thread and pics on my system page. Cheers,
Spencer

The original Mapleshade I own. The newer Mapleshade, by Pierre's own admission is not quite as good. The Walgreens that use to be recommended is no longer available last time I checked. I bought a db tech steamer off of Amazon years ago that worked 95% of the original Mapleshade. I recently bought a new db tech with a smaller water tank. I was disappointed in this one. I plan on searching for a larger tank version soon.

With my Mapleshade and my 1st db tech, I made the cardinal sin of refilling the tank before it was cooled enough. Do not do that!

I have seen mention of obtaining steam cleaning equipment from Walgreens and Mapleshade and KAB. Any thoughts on the best one? 

nkonor,

That AFI Flat sounds (fantastic) from what I've read. There is a thread here on it that I assume could point you in the right direction. If you obtain one, I'd love to hear your impressions. Good luck!

Could you explain exactly what you're looking for regarding "point me in the right direction for equipment and sources to obtain?"

slaw,

Yes, I think that we are mostly on the same page with equipment and methods.
My method takes 20 minutes per record.Yes, labor intensive.
 I think steam cleaning would be great; Can you or Rushton point me in the right direction for equipment and sources to obtain?
Also technique for safest and best results? I would appreciate it.

 I the meantime; I am still trying to get a handle on the AFI Flat and its Relax function. Cost in US $, And US distributor? Any help from anyone would be appreciated.

When I start running out of the L Art d' Son ; I will start using the Down with dirty enzyme solution.

Best wishes to All on this journey.
Clean records and stylus; There is no substitute.

The other major benefit I failed to mention above is the ability to clean your lp cleaning tools and velvet lips on your stationary vacuum cleaning machines. I could argue that over time, this benefit alone would pay for the steamer in the absence of having to buy new velvet pads/ tools over time.

nkonor,

We've visited on the Rushton thread. I believe we have mostly the same equipment and processes except for, (in my experience) one factor...I do the steam clean as my initial step.

I've cleaned many records with out the steam/DWDC, and put them through my 16.5, then the Audio Desk. Then later added my steam regimen, and the results were positive. I posted on Rushton's thread not too long ago about my experience with the Neil Young lp. The result in my system was noticeable. The result in KC's system was like a component/cable/cartridge upgrade, IMO. He had his $10K statement phono stage playing. So, the more resolution of one's system, the more of an impact that a great cleaning method can offer.

Steamings'  benefits: ( I hold the lp over a sink while I steam so the lp is washed off)

(1) You can spread any fluid you choose onto a record.
(2) The addition of heat that other inexpensive options, and most others'  don't allow for, along with a great cleaning fluid, removes a very high percentage of contaminants.
(3) It has a built in rinse factor.
(4) You're not using old dirty water to clean any other lps.
(5) Inexpensive.

Steamings' negatives:

(1) Labor intensive.

The method Rushton uses with his filter is very well thought out and solves one of the main problems with US cleaning, the re-use of contaminated water.

Happy listening

jayh,

Check out Rushton's thread.

You're correct that "full treatment" does make a big difference.

Regarding the OP's point as to the best value... I may have misinterpreted that as to include (lowest cost = greatest impact) as part of that "best value term".

Regarding a Spin-Clean. Based on what I've read and seen in print, I'd go with the Gem Dandy over it, mainly because in the (initial cleaning), the dirt/crud that comes off of the record won't go into a bath that the next lp will see.

 slaw,

Last I heard from Dave Burton @ "Record Genie" .com Is that he really has NOT made money but does stay busy with his record cleaning services and three (3) young kids.
If I stay focused; I can clean (5) records in an hr. Will I complete all of my 3000 LPs with my process. Absolutely Not. I will get all of my special recordings done and listen to them.
Using just my Audiodesk; I clean LPs as I want to listen. Only special recordings get the full enzyme, rinse, Audiodesk, rinse treatment. The full treatment does really make a difference over just the AD clean only.

I'd be interested in any info from everyone out there who's had experience w diy ultrasonic cleaners.
Thanks

I've done a lot of research.  The most effective cleaning method is ultrasonic.  Results are demonstrably better than vacuum machines and results are repeatable.  Improvement is noted with new unplayed records, and records that were carefully stored.  Cost varies from a few hundred dollars (DIY Kit) to several thousand (Audiodesk and others).   I will purchase a DIY ultrasonic setup in the near future.  It will replace a process of Spin Clean followed by Nitty Gritty Vacuum.    The basic Ultrasonic process is adequate for most cleaning purposes.  Some have reported better results by incorporating an enzyme pre clean and scrub, rinse with purified water (distilled, lab grade etc) then a US clean.  Some feel that a post bath rinse and air dry improves results.   My takeaway is these are tweaks around a basic process that is sound and effective.  And as I stated previously, I will purchase a DIY system in the near future.