Stefanl, hese guys know alot more about this than I do, but since I'm learning this stuff too, we may as well learn together. I hope something in my post here will help.
I just the last two days going throught this very exercise. I've become bored with life, so I decided to switch back to my Benz Glider. Partly to compare the performance to my 103r, partly 'cuz I thought I might be having tracking issues with the 103r on my Vector arm, partly 'cuz I have sado-masochistic tendencies. But mostly 'cus I need the practice listening for the changes.
Your very question has been on my mind. The answer came quickly for the Glider as Benz is kind enought to put the recommended angle on the little piece of paper that came with it. It says 20 degrees, so I was betting that would mean "tail up". After going throught the method spelled out on the Walker Audio page DougDeacon referenced, that is just how my Vector has ended up. Way, way "tail up". I have devised a method using small blocks of hardwoods and and old deck of playing cards so that I can record which block of wood and how many playing cards it took to get the Vector at its current position. ( You guys who do "on-the-fly" VTA have to be rolling on the floor at this! :) )
So now I want to go back and do the same for the 103r. But where to start? Denon doesn't provide a recommended angle. I've read where some users of this cartridge have ended up a bit tail up and some prefer abit tail down. I guess I'll start with the head level while the stylus is resting on a regular weight lp. It's as good a place as any to start. Then follow the "Walker method" until I get that range where the soundstage opens and I begin to here the spatial effects.
Fortunately, the Vector comes with a mirror guage so setting the overhang and azimuth are not much of an issue. I could use a better eye piece to see with. |
DougDeacon, there actually walnut and hard maple. I've been in New England long enough to start turning Yankee. I don't through anything away, especially from my humble wood shop. The blocks I am using are from my audio rack system. I pulled them out of the scrap pile and they seem to be about 1/8 inch different in thickness, so each one seems to get me in the ball park with the Vector depending on if I have the Glider or the 103 mounted. The Glider likes to be way up, the 103 likes to be up just a little.
I don't get the comments from some that the best VTA is always near parallel. Not to say that they are wrong just that I have not found that to be the case with my setup, nor did I find that to be the case with my old MMF 7 and V15VxMR setup. Seems most cartridges in my system like to be somewhat tail up. Perhaps it is because my 10t's are kind of difficult to tame in the lower frequencies. I am finding that I usually have to raise the arm to focus the bass, which is great cuz the HF seems to like that. |
Thanks, DougDeacon and Sirspeedy, for pointing out where I am going wrong.
I do have trouble with the 103r in finding that spot where Walker says the bass goes heavy and the highs drop off. Perhaps I am too focused on the bass and not listening to the whole sound, and I'm probably making changes too quickly based on Sirspeedy's comments. I doubt that my amps are having any problem controlling the 10t's so most likely I'm just listening for the wrong thing here. The Glider is fairly easy to setup because there is a range that I can quickly find where the soundstage goes from being flat to large and deep. Small changes from here are what I believe are desirable. But the 103 keeps fighting me. Now that I think about this some more it may be that I'm trying to "fit" the 103r into what I experienced setting up the Glider. |
Eureka! It's all about methodology! I went over to VA and did a search on VTA postings by jnhvac just as DougDeacon suggested. I found a post where jnhvac describes his method of starting with the cartridge level with respect to the record surface, then lowering from that position about 5 or 6 playing cards. (Real precision measurements here!) Next you start raising the arm 1 card at a time until you get the air around the instruments and the soundstage opens.
This method has worked very well for me tonight with my 103r. Listening to Jean Luc-Ponty's Enigmatic Ocean I can hear every cymbal at a distinctly differenct location. All instruments have much more presence in the room. The most dramatic impact is how the instruments just off center can clearly be heard adding to the sounds. That's the spot I remember stumbling on to with the Glider. Now I believe I have a methodology to re-create this with another cartridge.
Not to put down what is on the Walker page, but I think the talk of lowering the arm until the bass goes heavy was just to much for my pea-size brain to deal with. I understand what they are trying to relate, but it really is all about the presence of the instruments in the room and not the tonal balance, just as you guys have said. You guys keep talking, it will eventually sink into my thick skull!
I can't wait until my Graham tonearm cable shows up so I can mount that 2.2 and really get some precision adjustments! |
So I was bock over on VA last night and found a post that suggested weighing records and then making slight VTA adjustements based on the weight. I assume that the theory is that since the records are approximately the same surface area the weight differences must be due to the thickness differences. I haven't tried this but it seems to me that this is a crap shoot because it really depends on the cutting angle when the record was made. Maybe it will work sometime, and maybe even most of the time. The poster who proposed this was also careful to say that you still have to make the final evaluation by ear. What the poster was offering was a way to guestimate the VTA adjustment when one is experiementing with a record who's VTA setting has not been previously found. I'm not sure I'm ready to do the VTA adjustment for each record while fumbling with my playing cards. Maybe I'll try settings with a few normal weight records and then a few heavy weight records and just settle on a happy medium. |
Sirspeedy, my comment about real precision measurements was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. I don't remember what arm you have but with the Vector the mounting cup just slides up and down when the set screw is loosened. It is very easy to move it too much either up or down, and sometimes not move it at all. The stack of playing cards provides a sort of poor man's micrometer, so it is much easier to get repeatable settings. For me that is paramount while learning to listen for the changes. I need some way to get repeatable changes to help convince myself that I am not imagining something I think I hear. Maybe once I've done this a few thousand times I'll know just by ear whether the arm needs to go up a gnat's whisker or a gnat's arm length. Yeah, I could spend the $800 on the Basis VTA adjuster and get this in a precision doo-dad, but the cards work well enough for now and the 2.2 will give me this. |
Speedy, I didn't take it that way, and you're post are extremely helpful to me. So please don't stop on my account. I just felt I needed to explain what I was about. It's pretty hard for me sometimes to get my thoughts across in written posts. (Wow, physical, vocal and facial expressions are really important!) Part of the reason I was looking for some method to use is that all of my analog front end is new to me, all of it coming in the last 6 to 9 months. I probably broke that rule about not changing too many things at once, but I gotta feed the beast.
I don't remember having this much problem with my old MMF 7, but then I only had the one cartridge for it. I had it dialed in pretty well and then pulled the arm to upgrade the wires and clips. Since I knew the position I could just return the arm there and be done. Right now it's not so easy cuz, as you say, I'm still learning and getting to know my stuff. I image if it had taken futzing with more than 4 or 5 cards I would have gotten frustrated and just done the gross movement thing. I think that's how I got messed up with the 103 in the first place. I'll get there before long. |
I know what you mean, Rockinroni. I'm already fighting the battle with static. This time of year it's bad one day, completely gone the next. It also takes about 2 hours to lift the temperature in my listening room (finished basement) using only the heat from my system to warm me and the cartrige suspension. It averages a 5 degree rise, but I'm saving money on the oil bill by not having to turn the heat zone on down there. At this rate I could pay for my stereo equipment in 100 years or so.
I am coming around to the idea that level is the best place to start. I have read about cartridges being made so that their stylii are set at a certain angle with respect to the body, which is usually spec'd at being parallel with the LP surface. Beyond that I'm joining the camp who believe that you should set the arm to what ever is needed as dictated by what angle the stylus should be at to properly trace the groove. Now that I have a better feel for dialing in from scratch, it does seem that this optimum setting is generally going to be within a few degrees of level, but that is really not the goal. That is, the goal is not to keep the arm level as much as it is to get the arm in whatever position it needs to be in so that the diamond is in the proper attitude with respect to the groove angle.
That's all I can manage for now, Jack is calling my name. And loudly! |
