REL. Martin Logan. I have a 10” REL and it’s great even with speakers that are tough to integrate with a sub. I would recommend a 12” if you are looking for just the lowest octave.
I also use a Velodyne SMS 1 EQ which I think is part of my success. I would look at some of the new subs that have built in crossover freq and slope along with EQ
Maggie’s are great but you need a really good sub to augment their bottom end. Anything sluggish and boomy will ruin their sound.
The integration problem is that of room modes and not so much of the subs themselves. Dipoles do not excite room modes that much, so combining with ordinary subwoofers highlights the problem. So, for solutions look at
1 dipoles subs, to address the problem at the root.
2 multiple subs, to smoothen the response
3 room eq (e.g. Antimode 8033).
How large is your room and what kind of music do you listen to that has such low tones? Those bottom frequency waves are mighty long. :)
This info might be helpful.
Nothing wrong with any of the above responses, but I would recommend you get another loudspeaker rather than trying to augment the .7s. I recommend either larger Magnepans or Eminent Technology 8b loudspeakers. My reasoning goes that the a good sub really won't work as well or cost much less than buying a different loudspeaker.
I have no tone controls.... dont really need them . That is until I turn the sub on. I have a nasty room mode with a huge bump centered around 40 hz.... its bad. I could never get large floor standers to sound good in this room because of that. So I've used a number of different smaller speakers with a sub, that SMS 1 really tames the peak and the two different subs I've used it with have really benefitted from it. That said if I were buying a new sub it would have to have the same type of correction that the Velodyne Digital Drive series had , adjustable freq, slope, EQ.
The biggest challenge in adding any subwoofer is room integration.
I know you want to have 20 Hz response, but I wouldn't worry about that as your primary issue. The room response itself can extend or impede the behavior of a sub.
IMHO, your speakers are fine, I would keep them, and get a sub with really great room correction. You'll have a much better result than merely going with larger speakers.
When you audition a sub, you need to audition the sub and the room correction software. See how easy and comprehensive it is to use, and listen for the final results.
Since I build speakers, I do my own room correction with a MiniDSP unit, but that's beyond what most want to do. The solution for you, IMHO is to get a sub that does this for you.
It has everything to do with the room, I agree. I’ve had some really good speakers in this room that just did not sound good due to their size , radiation pattern, required distance from wall.....etc. my last speakers were great but they sounded bloated when too close to the wall. The speakers before them were front ported and therefore worked better in this room and honestly were better. PSB M2 Platinum, wish I never sold those.....
I run my mains full range, they roll off around 60 and use the crossover to apply a crossover close to that and experiment with the freq. and slope until the bass is tight and no overlap to impart boominess
@@Eric Squires +1 !
FWIW, As an experiment, I picked up a pair of very inexpensive Andrew Jones 8" Pioneer subs. Frequency response starts about 40hz. They took at least 200 hours to break-in, and a few hours of experimentation as to placement, but they work surprisingly well with my .7’s. I wanted to find out if subs were even viable in my listening environment and were at least relatively compatible with the Maggies before I spent more money on a pair of better subs w/ room correction, which now will likely be my next step.
Overall, I’m pretty amazed at how good my rig sounds.
Unclemode? For 150 bucks I highly recommend a Shiit Loki EQ, as long as you don’t need a balanced thing…or you can loop it…in any case, unlike a digital EQ that’s on all the time making decisions for you (unless it’s off), this thing has 4 bands to be used whenever you feel like it, and the lowest pot, centered at 20 hz, is a very useful lumpiness extractor...you get 4 knobs to play with so it’s also a useful cymbal enhancer and mid weirdness adjuster. Also can be used as a paperweight, a really bad flashlight, and if you remove the top that can be used as a mediocre ashtray. It’s extremely quiet with zero switching noise or bothersome snoring. I use mine sparingly but hey…it’s a cool gizmo. Schiit should pay me for this plug but do they? NO…damn...
The Antimode does a detailed analysis of the peaks, and then applies precise parametric equalization with 28 or 36 filters, i.e. it reduces the peaks targeted at precisely the required frequency, and with as narrow a range and as much amplitude as is needed. No fixed frequency equalizer like the Loki can get even close to the Antimode's accuracy.
I had some .7's and had the same issue you are talking about. I had one 10" Klipsch sub from the early 2000's and bought a matching sub for it on ebay for $140. I put them in opposite corners of the room and they filled in perfectly. They wanted a really low crossover too, I had them at a little under 80 Hz. I also had an Outlaw Bass Controller (ICBM) to pull some of the low bass of the .7's. I think that helps too.
FWIW, still ended up getting rid of the Maggies, they just couldn't hit hard for the music I liked (Rock and Roll).
I agree on the Vandersteen 2Wqs. I have had a pair for a number of years and they are excellent, and a good match for any speaker that reaches down to 40Hz. Easy to place, easy to dial in and because they take the signal from your amp's speaker jacks, they will mate well with your main speakers. I would recommend eventually upgrading to the outboard M5-HPs crossovers, as I did notince more transparency with them as opposed to the basic and less costly in-line filters.
The Schiit Loki is an interesting alternative. Unfortunately, having measured a few different subs in a few different rooms, it's going to be a little limited. I mean, it's worth the $150, but often in a sub there are 2-3 narrow bands which need to get cut by a great deal between 20 and 80 Hz.
Add to that I like to use a descending FR, from 20 Hz, loosing 1-2 dB / octave. (JL does the same).
Also, I have never heard a downside in using a miniDSP or similar in a sub only situation.
Still, the Loki may be worth having for other reasons. It is certainly cheaper and more effective than swapping cables to dial in the right sound. :)
I understand how "digital nannies" work, I've experienced them firsthand (a friend who produces some of the concerts I mix is an early adopter of an Antimode), and will assume the esteemed willemj and additionally steamy mister Squires have not tried a Loki, and why would they? It doesn't necessarily replace the Aunty Mame nanny, but it works as I described it, and allows the user to infinitely tweak things to their hearts desire over various frequency bands allowing one to simply become Knob Turner. Sometimes simple is better…much better. My issue with digital nannies is that there is an extremely wide range of choices made by engineers in mixing recordings, and over decades of not only testing home audio bass response AND live concert bass reinforcement (using state of the art testing systems), my ego refuses to let nannie designers call my shots, so to speak. Plus, I don't have room in my gear rack for a DSP…that might be the main reason right there.
From what I understand the Loki is a Baxandall type tone control, covering a pretty wide range, whereas a system like the Antimode (or an REW corrrection curve) is a very precisely targeted precision weapon. And it is very small indeed. Mine just sits behind my power amplifier, out of sight and out of mind.
Excellent advice and ideas…gotta love this forum.
My listening room is 20’ X 28’ X 9’, and it has an additional 7’ behind the speakers with stairs to a lower level. I have no boomy issues, so perhaps the stairwell acts as a trap for low frequency reflections (that’s using my second set of speakers, which have SEAS 10” bass drivers and extend below 30Hz).
I agree that RELs and JLs are fast enough, while big and slower drivers (15”) might not work well. I’m going to demo Martin Logan’s 210 in a few days, and I’m interested in the Vandersteen 2WQs, which are new to me. Also interested in Antimode 8033 which I don’t know at all.
The Maggies deliver plenty of detail, but in my (new) experience they need to be played loud to bring it forward, so I may rethink this, as some have suggested here.
You may want to look into the Martin Logan, "Descent i" subs. There are still some available "New" at a close out price. Three 10" aluminum drivers, Three independent amplifiers, "All servo corrected transducers", with "Room Correction", in the "i" models I've heard. I have the original "Descents" and swear by them . They are a 106lb. sealed box, triangular array that is inherently vibration/distortion canceling and well damped. With an balanced, XLR connection choice. They work great with my line source array system.
They can be driven to tremendous levels. They actually cracked the end of my homes foundation squarely off at the end. So I had soft expansion joints installed.
Running military grade sub bass system its about 1000lbs and it doesn't crack concrete but it can bend the steel door to room when running tests. Since I know a bit amount about material science I would say expansion contraction due to thermal stress or earth movement most likely cracked the concrete foundation. Infrasound is less damaging to hearing since it is mostly conducted by the human body it can damage eyes by retina detachment or may cause other issues our human whole body resonance is from 2-10hz the human diaphragm about 40-60hz eyes about 16hz.
My Schiit Loki is usually in its bypass mode, but if a recording lacks treble energy (or "Fletcher Munson Curve" based late night low volume tweaking is necessary) the highest frequency (8kHz) adjuster will bring sparkle in, and really get the cymbals highlighted smoothly, and the same with the reduction or addition of bass. I rarely use the midrange bands. It might be the best 150 bucks I’ve spent on any hifi gadget as it’s really useful and I haven’t had tone controls on a preamp for a long time. My current trepidation regarding an Antimode box regards my hesitation of adding another thing in the line to the amp, and the fact that I don’t seem to need it in my listening room. But if I find one cheap enough I may still give it a shot for fun.
This is what The Absolute Sound had to say about the Audiokinesis Swarm (and it seems to make sense): https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:vtIuKJVOkCoJ:https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2018/02...
So JohnK, has weaponized sub's. You must REALLY not like your neighbor's! My hearing is still fine. I just wish "Allstate" had thought like JohnK. In that case I wouldn't have had to pay "out of pocket", to fix the foundation.
The initial hook up for the first Descent I purchased really surprised me. I had the front grill off to tweak the controls and was watching the transducer as the song playing was quite sub-sonically challenging. As I watched the high excursion on the driver facing me, the frequency passed below my hearing threshold. And in total silence to me, that's when the excursion took a turn to the violent. It was moving so much in fact, that as I jumped up and ran over to adjust the level I just knew that I was going to have three ruined woofers. Amazingly the sub has never shown itself to be any worse for the wear! Still more articulate than any other I personally have heard.
I would try a "Weaponized", sub system though. It sounds neat. And definitely a "guy" thing. But it seems I am fresh out of enemies.
Check out the RSL Speedwoofer. It's a great value for money, and supports my Maggie MMGi speakers really well. Here's a review: https://www.soundandvision.com/content/rsl-speakers-speedwoofer-10s-subwoofer-review
I won’t be adding a sub to my newly acquired 1.7i’s, but when I had the .7’s I employed a small REL which, to my humble ears, meshed very well. I forget which model I used, but the driver was 8”.
My 1.7i’s are 40hz, as well and yet I’m finding that adding a sub at this point is unnecessary. Perhaps because the bass panel is somewhat larger on the 1.7i, perhaps because...I don’t know.
I prefer Rel’s ease of integration. Only took me an hour or so to get it sounding well.