Hi Bryan, after trying Analysis Plus Bi-Oval 9 and Virtual Dynamics Audition Biwired, I now am enjoying great success with biwired Acoustic Zen Hologram II. Although I only have about three weeks on them, I can say they are very full sounding with decently good extension at both ends while throwing a huge soundstage.
I own a Bryston 4B as well and think a full sounding cable would compliment this amp better than say a silver speaker cable.
Although they retail for $1100 new for an 8 foot run, if you e-mail me I can tell you where to get them much cheaper.
zu cable "wax". I replaced 2 runs of cardas neutral reference for the wax and never looked back
I am second Zu cable'VAX';but if you can afford ZU cable IBIS-go for it-thats another level and significantly better than VAX...
The best bi-wired speaker cable under $1000 (or over $1000) may or may not be bi-wired.
I'm not pooh-poohing bi-wiring at all. But bi-wiring benefits is certainly system dependent and depends on the listener's preferences. In other words, don't buy it simply because someone (or even a mfg'er) said you should.
One should assume that they could afford a better quality mono-wired over the similarly priced bi-wired terminations.
What speakers are you using?
If you are going to bi-wire, use separate cables for top and bottom, not cables that are internally bi-wired. This is just my opinion.
Rather than making a suggestion, why not let us know what you think your system lacks right now with the Monster's and that may give us a better idea as to what may be more suitable. We can all share what cables we personally like but helping you find cables that you like would be the main goal of this thread : ) Sean
Try the Zu WAX in a single run - way better than the WAX in a Bi-Wire set up.
Hands down, Analysis Plus Solo Crystal Oval 8!!!
WAX Bi Biwire...no jumpers.
I would second the Acoustic Zen Hologram, it's the best cable at the price, good luck
Sonoran Plateau is the best bang for the buck and mayber regardless of the buck. Great cable. Check out audiopoints.com.
Why do you need biwire? Very few speakers actually benefit from it and think about this: The crossover was designed to have identical signals at both the woofer and tweeter input circuits. Whe you biwire, the voltage at the two inputs will be different. Does not make sense.
Makes more sense to buy a really good single-wire cable with your $1K and some really good jumpers to replace your factory jumpers.
Zu Wax is a real bargin, and is better than many cables that cost significantly more. Plus, the guys at Zu are great to deal with. You will not be disappointed.
Audioengr: your comment "The crossover was designed to have identical signals at both the woofer and tweeter input circuits" would only apply to a speaker that offered bi-wiring as an "after the fact" attempt at marketing features. The above would not apply to a product that was designed for truly optimized performance under optimized conditions. Whether or not the mass majority of bi-wirable speakers are of this nature would be another matter. I just wanted to point this out for future reference.
As a side note, a crossover network is nothing more than a voltage dividing network based upon frequency. As such, minimizing the amount of stress placed upon any individual component by removing some of the signal that it might have to pass would typically be considered a "good thing". I am talking about both thermal and saturation factors here. I can see no technical drawback to "true" bi-wiring so long as the signals presented to both the top and bottom section of the speaker are in phase with each other and the total series resistance of both cables remains equal to or less than a single cable.
As always, i would love to compare notes on the subject with those that have varying points of view so as to widen my grasp of the subject. Sean
PS... Does anyone know what the first ( one cabinet ) speaker was to make use of multiple binding posts, specifically for the use of bi-amping or bi-wiring ? I have my ideas, but i'd like to see if anyone else has another answer.
I email to Stehno and told me about audience A24 I was
leaning toward other same prize cable, this audience
au24 made my 3k cable like a piece of junk,I hate to
mention brand sometimes, in the past Iam bold about it.
all you get on a24 is music,EXTREMELY MUSICAL CABLE.
audioengr and sean, i called b@w regarding bi-wire application of my nautilus 801 speakers, they said the speakers were designed with bi-wire in mind and while they work fine with the jumpers, the eng.at b@w find they sound best bi-wired. sounds like what sean said. since b@w could care less about how you wire the product since they don't sell wire, i think i got the straight scoop on the bi-wire issue as it relates to nautilus speakers. i replaced long [20ft] runs of dunlavy bi-wire with much shorter runs oval 8 bi-wire and the soud is great. i think that some of us spend too much time trying to outthink the designers and when you think about that and the business ramifications, it takes some mighty ego's to challenge the guy who designed the product. i know i know the argument that all products are designed to a price point but in the case of bi- wire vs single wire plus jumper this makes no sense. as usual sean your analysis is right on point. it's interesting to note that the analysis plus eng. dept agreed with b@w eng dept on this issue. so i guess the issue is ,are your speakers really designed with bi-wire in mind or as audioengr infers as marketing hype. call befor you buy!
Naim makes some inexpensive cables I'm real pleased with.
Capeguy: I don't want to make it sound like i was challenging Audioengr or anything like that. What i was trying to say is that there are different design approaches and that nobody can design a product that will work universally well when dealing with all of the variables that one can run into. As such, knowing what variables apply to your specific situation will typically give you further insight as to where to look and how best to spend your money. You were smart to call B&W and find out their thoughts on the subject, as they "should" ( not necessarily always the case with every manufacturer ) be familiar enough with their own product to know how to get it to perform optimally.
Other than that, people do hear differently and have different tastes. It is quite possible that even though a product was designed for use in a specific manner, one may find that they like a slightly different presentation than what the designer had in mind for that product. If you can take that product and find a way to make it work to suite your needs / personal preferences, that is great too. So long as one enjoys the music and their system, that is all that matters : )
As a side note, i'd just like to remind people that many of my posts are based on "theoretically perfect audio reproduction" and trying to achieve that with the least amount of compromises. Whether or not one strives to achieve that ( i do ) or can afford the "ultimate system" ( i can't ) is another story. Most of my posts should be taken as food for thought and information to compare with others' points of view. You will have to decide for yourself what you think will work best for your individual application and go from there. Nobody can tell you what you like or can hear better than yourself. Sean
Is it possible for Bi-wiring a speaker to cause an extra frequency dip? For Instance a 2-way might be crossed over
at 2800 would the Bi-wiring add a dip at 600 or so?
I hope the question makes sense? and i would appreciate
Depending on the design of the speaker, the individual cables used and how the amplifier loads into the various combos, i wouldn't say it was impossible.
I'm guessing that this is what you experienced when you tried bi-wiring with no other changes being made at the same time ? Sean
Yes im getting an unexpected dip (its actually at 800hz)
my in-room response is +/- 3db worst case.. above 80hz except for 2 spots one at 800hz and one at 2600hz. Now this is with the RS digital meter and 1/3 octave test CD. I have found the RS digital meter to be very unreliable. For instance I used the Infinity RAMBOS (better than 1/3 octave)
measurment and found the RS off by up to 5db on the bottom.
What i havent done is un-biwire and test again.
Sorry for the mutated response on my last post.. I was running out the door to go get my son.
The most important thing i didnt mention is.. i have
never measured this system without bi-wire so i
dont know for sure.
Can i just unhook one of the sets of wires at the speakers
and re-install the jumpers to test? Or do i have to take
the 2nd set off at the amp also?
sean, well said! i didn't think you were challenging audioengr it's not your style. i agree that we are all seeking the holy grail of musical truth and we all have our version of what that truth is. i was not challenging audioengr either he has the creds. i was just pointing out that as far as nautilus speakers go, bi-wire is the real deal.
Voodoo: I would pull the second set of speaker cables off of the speakers and take measurements with a single cable and jumpers hooked up. You can then hook things back up and take another set of readings with the complete bi-wire arrangement. I sincerely doubt that you'll see any major differences.
Other than that, it sounds like you might be running into some form of cancellation from room nodes. The spacing between 800 Hz and 2600 Hz almost equals a primary and a third harmonic, so that could be coming into play. Then again, you might have a node at 800 Hz and the 2600 Hz drop could be crossover related. Too many variables without knowing any of the specifics.
As to the RS meter, none of them are real accurate in stock form. I know nothing about the digital meter, as i've never used it or read about it, but you can probably find out how to correct a lot of the deficiencies of this unit at Eric Wallin's DIY Audio Website
Thanks... That makes alot of sense... But before i pull the
bi-wire im going to set the test CD at 800 and move around
the room to see if it varies at all. It didnt even cross my
mind till you said room mode. Then if that doesnt make a
difference then i will pull the second set of wires and re-test.
I talked to Rives about the difference between RS Analog
and Digital SPL's.. he is more familiar with the Analog
but he felt the Digital is supposed to be closer to flat and doesnt require the adjusted tracks.. But if i had to
do over i would get the Analog and use the adjusted tracks
atleast they know how far off the Analog is.
Oh well live and learn... Thanks again.
Take a look at LAT-International SS-1000 at their website (www.latinternational.com). They take a long burn-in, but my, did they transform my system. I second the most enthusiastic review you'll finf on audioreview.com
What a great responce. Thanks to all. I need go through all the great responces. I left out that I have two sets of speakers. The main set is a pair of Revel F30 and the second is a pair of Harmon Kardon 50s. I have been trying to find out the name of the Canadian company that made the Harmon Kardon speakers but have never been able to find out.
I think that my system is lacking in detail.
Analysis Plus Crystal Solo
I second Purist Audio Museaus. I've been auditioning lost of stuff from cable company - Goertz, Analysis Plus, Cardas (two different), Synergistic (2 different) and Harmonic Tech in addition to the AQ Midnight and Straightwire Sextet I already owned. The Museaus was the clear winner in my system with the Harmonic Tech coming in second.
I too own Bryston ....4Bsst BP25 Exposure Classic CD Player
I Use Harmonic Technology Cyberlight between Cd and Pre amp,
Pro Silway 111 between Pre Amp and Amp, and H/T Pro 9 Bi- wire Speaker cables. I get detail, clarity and transparecy.
Harmonic Tech Pro 9's killed Cardas neutral Ref and I preferred them over Cardas Gold Ref speaker cables. Great Value cables .... worth twice their price. Good luck with your search.