Bel Canto REF1000M vs. Simaudio Moon 400M

During the past year Simaudio has come out with a class A/AB mono amplifier, the Moon 400M, which appears to have the virtues of class D amps. It puts out 400 watts rms into 8ohms and peaks at 56 amperes, runs cool to slighty warm and weighs 25 lbs. Cost is $ 6500.00 a pair. Very few reviews, and the Soundstage review is outstanding. The Bel Canto REF1000M puts out 500 watts rms into 8ohms and peaks at 45 amperes. Cost is $ 6000.00 a pair. The Moon 400M has a larger power supply. Has anyone listen to both of these models and how do they compare to each other? I suspect the Sim Moon is better but I haven't listened to the 400M. Has Bel Canto finally met its match?
Just heard them with the 350p simaudio preamp coupled with a high end MSB dac driving a new pair of MARTEN DJANGOS >.wow was i trading in everything i have for this setup minus the dac which is 16k ..will substitute either the new esoteric coming do7x or sim 380d....
the 400m made these speakers just sing..
Zuigisland..before you jump on the Esoteric bandwagon, consider the MPS-3 or MPS-5 players from Playback Designs.
The designer of these machines is Andreas Koch, the King of digital engineering. He designed the original SACD technology for Sony when he worked for them back in the ninetie's, and he built the worlds first outboard D/A processor in 1982. No digital engineer can top Koch, not even Mike Ritter with Berkeley Audio. He worked for EMM Labs and Ed Meitner but was ticked off at Ed and left due to the lousy analog stage that Meitner designed in the EMM players. Andreas designed the digital stages for all the EMM players. The Playback Designs machines will smoke or equal any other brand regardless of price due to the algorithm, rail array topology that is exclusive to Koch. No other SACD/CD player in the world has advanced engineering that can equal Koch.
It appears a bit larger and heavier being Class A/B rather then Class D. That would probably account for larger power supply. Also probably not as energy efficient I would expect.

I've not heard the Sim so cannot compare the sound, other than to say the BCs are really good in the right system with the right speakers. Same probably true of the SIm. On paper it would seem to be competitive with the BC ref1000m and fairly similar in specs otherwise. Not totally an apples/apples comparison though.

Audiozen thanks for the feedback, will be grabbing a pd mpd3 dac for audition today, dont need thr transport as I am now streaming so
Will report bavk, the 5 btw is out of my range but may stretch for the 3 if its killer
Mapman..for the power that the Sim Moon 400M puts out, which peaks at a whopping 56 amperes, the amp is light and very efficient. Sim recommends keeping the amp on at all times. In idle mode the amp runs on a low 22 watts. Each mono block weighs just 33 lbs. Due to their advanced Renaissance circuit technology, they are the lightest high powered A/AB amps on the market. The whole idea with class D amps years ago was to make a light efficient amp. Now Sim has achieved the problems with class A/AB amps where a class D amp is no longer necessary, and no class D amp will ever equal the superior musicality of a class A or A/AB amp.
Im in for the 400,s thanks
"Now Sim has achieved the problems with class A/AB amps where a class D amp is no longer necessary, and no class D amp will ever equal the superior musicality of a class A or A/AB amp."

Have you compared?

Sounds like your mind is made up.

I'm not certain about that. My Class Ds are pretty "muscular".

That's a nice size package but still considerably heavier and somewhat larger than the smaller Class Ds, FWIW.
Mapman..what is important to make the comparison is the gain output, the max amperage output and voltage storage.
Class D amps work best with dedicated 20 or 30 amp a.c.
outlets since they move current by means of pulse modulation or switching modualtion. Comparing the Simaudio 400M to the Bel Canto Ref1000M, The Sim has 100,000 microfarads of storage if you count all main and secondary caps and has a max output of 56 amperes where as the Bel Canto peaks at 45 amperes, the Sim has a superior power supply. I have owned Class D amps in the past. They are great if the recording is good quality but since Class D amps are known for being extremely neutral, they can be brutal on poor red book CD's. Class D amps do not have the full, liquid midrange of the best tube and S.S. amps. I had the Nuforce 9SE V2's, and they where too dry in the upper frequencies. A close friend of mine in Chicago has the Sim 400M's with a Levinson 326S Pre and a Playback Designs MPS-5 SACD player. He describes the Sim's as very organic with a very full rich and smooth midrange, with outstanding transparency and echo decay. Class D amps are good if you are on a budget and want a short cut to obtain high power, but they are cheaper too make and do not possess the superior beefy power supplies and larger transformers of conventional amps that will always have greater power reserves then Class D.
Audiozen, for whatever reason i am not hearing what you relate having heard with the class ds in my system for whatever reason. My conclusions are a lot more positive than yours. Class a/b andclass d are radically different technologies. Hard to base comparisons on any one or two specs alone. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree maybe.
Audiozen , thanks for the feedback on the PBD mpd3 i went and got a piece to audition home and was blown away , certainly the best digital i ever heard ...although my limited dac vocab has consited of Bel Canto Wyred for sound hegel and the 300d from Sim ...oh and the the high end MSb and wiess which i htink the PBD beat hadnitl thanks V
I have a Bel Canto e.DAC 2.5 upstream and have heard their mono blocks at AV shows/stores. I am looking into the 400Ms now. I dont think the Bel Canto monos have enough bite to properly complement my present system.

What I am getting at, is that both amps sound very good depending on what you are running upstream. I have a Bel Canto DAC, a BAT tubed pre, and a SS Pass Labs x150. The Pass Labs is impressive, but since I have a tubed amp, I need more bite from SS.
If I had a SS preamp, then I would go for the Bel Canto Monoblocks to smooth things over, and make up for what I would lose from the warmer sounding BAT tubed pre.

For what is is worth, I have found that ICs used to feed my Bel Canto ref1000m monoblocks can make a huge difference in resulting sound from smoother and more laid back to considerable bite, at least with some speakers and associated room acoustics that might have any inclinations that way at all. My preferred ICs for good "bite" along with all the rest are DNM Reson. MIT ICs with their network device boxes tend to be smoother and more laid back. I have used both to very good effect but prefer the DNMs these days in my main system with the BC amps running both Dynaudio and OHM speakers.