When someone reports that bass disappears after some time, it really could be something somewhat different--it could be that the midrange or highs have gotten stronger rather than the bass getting weaker. It is not absolute level that matters so much as the balance.
Again, I will theorize that after the system has warmed up, the tonal balance has changed and the original poster may simply not like the tonal balance of his system in a warmed up state. |
Larryi, You just duplicated my post from the beginning of this thread and after 150 posts I still believe this is the OP's problem. Tonal balance is a delicate thing and it doesn't take much to throw the sound off. |
The lower octive has depth & moves air when it is playing optimaly..
After a time that quality receeds in to the background and the fundamental tones are no longer satisfying
I had Electician over today & found nothing wrong with phase,ground,connections or voltage |
I think you should have Johnny at the Audio Connection loan you a pair of Vandersteens to see if a warmer speaker cures your problem. |
I have tried every outlet in the apartment with same results.
|
Mcintech,
Curious what your assessment of the MF amp into 4 ohms is based on?
I think we have seen where the OPs PSB speakers present a challenging load even lower than 4 ohms at some points but nothing that indicates the MF amp is up to the task of driving them well without running out of gas, which seems to be what is happening for some reason.
Thanks. |
Mapman
You're assessment may be the correct one.
As I have tried every variation imagionable.
Two reasons that keep me hopeful:
I am satisfied with PSB Synchrony's overall balance with my system & would like to keep them.
It seems improbable the the manufactur nor any other user of these speakers can identify with this problem. |
Fish,
Can't you get your dealer who sold you the amp and/or speakers to help you sort through things?
You have a nice published resource here in this thread for reference, with feedback from various knowledgeable members, to help them help you sort through things and cut to the chase, which in my opinion means as a next step being able to try an amp that is better suited to drive the speakers on paper WITHOUT ANY QUESTION BASED ON KNOWN/PUBLISHED AMP SPECS/MEASUREMENTS. |
Here are the things ruled out:
speakers
amps (3 amps used, from 60 to 200 watts/channel)
hearing
electrical
The only clues are: bass might come back on its own or when messing with speaker cables.
This points to another component. What happens if you listen to an LP, and not only have the digital off but entirely disconnected, even unplugged from the wall. This is sounding more like an RF interference problem, and malfunctioning digital can do that. |
Atmas,
WHy rule out the amps when there is nothing indicating any of them are/were up to the task of driving the load of the PSBs without running out of gas.
RF from digital, malfunctioning or otherwise, might have an effect but my experience with that is effects are noticeable from the start and not cumulative over time. Not to say any listener might notice ANY negative effect more so over time in general.
Regardless, testing with a different source to see if same results if possible would be worthwhile. |
Can't you get your dealer who sold you the amp and/or speakers to help you sort through things?
My dealer thinks I'm a kook or have hearing/mental issues..
The support @ PSB are even worse & dismissive.
I would say for the record they are rude with no patience,interest or respect
That was my experience with PSB phone support.
I would never recommened this brand to anyone even though I like their speakers.. |
Here's an additional thought for the OP to consider:
In my experience as an electrical engineer, when a baffling problem occurs that defies diagnosis by the usual methods, including substitution of relevant hardware, it often turns out that TWO problems are present at the same time, both of which happen to produce similar symptoms.
Not sure what this might mean in this particular situation, but it's something to keep in mind.
Regards,
-- Al |
"What happens if you listen to an LP, and not only have the digital off but entirely disconnected, even unplugged from the wall. This is sounding more like an RF interference problem, and malfunctioning digital can do that"
I have not tried to unplug digital
Video sources loose their oomph too:
The soundrack on a James Bond DVD will go from viceral groans in the backgound that heighten tension to just background sounds.
Voice loose depth & personality
These are world class $5500 speakers highly rated by everyone.
They have (3) woofers to support solid bass. |
Tell him the gang on A'gon does not think you are a kook and that we will boycott his store (wherever it is) unless good customer service is demonstrated! :^)
Good customer service including ability to audition gear when needed is pretty much the only reason to buy audio gear from a brick and mortar real store any more.
Does the dealer still have the PSBs set up?
If so, maybe listen to them there (or anywhere else/another dealer if possible) and see if you hear anything similar to what you hear at home. Take note of the amp being used and investigate its specs versus yours in terms of ability to drive loads of 4 ohm or less. See if there is any correlation between what you hear there and what you hear at home and use that as a reference point for deciding what to do from there. |
Unfortunally my dealer is not located in NYC rather Chicago & Florida
I purchase from online authorized dealers to get a modest discount & avoid paying high NY state sales tax. |
Open letter to My Audio provider & dealer:
Dear Sir:
After 150 posts to my bass loss issue the consenses is for you to
use your resources to find the right person to assist me.
Please read some of the posts
I assumed they would have given up by now but are pretty determined
I had an Electrician check the connections but there was no problem
Most informed members of A'gon are convinced my speakers being 4 ohm are not up to the task or losing there bass grip after a period..
I request you ask PSB if they can be more involved and less dismissive
Please reply |
Fishing, where do you live? I'm sure one of the knowledgeable would be eager to help you out.
Mapman, why do you persist in pointing to the amp(s) as suspect when the phenomenon only occurs after a period of time? If they are not up to the task, don't you think that would be evident from the get-go?
Fishing, does your system support headphones? If so, see if you hear a similar phenomenon through phones as you do through the PSBs. |
My current system does not support headphones
I live close to Brooklyn |
Mapman, why do you persist in pointing to the amp(s) as suspect when the phenomenon only occurs after a period of time? If they are not up to the task, don't you think that would be evident from the get-go? No, not at all. And I agree with Mapman. If the ability of the amps to handle 2.7 to 4 ohm loads (at frequencies where most musical energy is concentrated) is marginal, it seems very conceivable that symptoms would not manifest themselves until internal temperatures have had time to rise, and more or less stabilize, following a cold start. The one factor that seems to rule out the amps as being the culprits, of course, is that three different ones have been tried. However, all of them are integrated amps having specs that are not suggestive of robustness in dealing with very low impedances. Yes, it seems improbable that three different amps would cause similar symptoms, but whatever the cause(s) of this problem may turn out to be, it seems clear at this point that they are improbable. "When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -- Sherlock Holmes Regards, -- Al |
Yes, maybe someone reading this in NYC area can help. If dealer is not local, it's hard to audition, for sure.
At this point, I just think the over-driven amp theory has the most evidence communicated to support it. Find one that will not break a sweat into 4 ohms or less and has plenty of gas to spare as a reference for comparison. That means on paper its specs indicate double the power into 4 ohms as eight. Its the only way to know for sure.
If there are any online sellers or vendors that offer money back satisfaction on amps that might be tried, that would provide a worthwhile option to pursue with little risk, other than shipping costs maybe. A good Class D amp might fit the bill and be practical to try due to small package and lighter weight for shipping. |
A respected dealer suggested I purchase a sound level meter.
Measure a bass test one when it sounds good then again when it changed
Does this route have potential to lend "credibilty" to my claims
AP |
Not only credibility, which isn't too important unless you are running for some type of award, but more importantly it might lead to a solution.
I have not read all of the posts. This has probably been addressed, but I'll risk it. When using a SPL meter as a guide once your system has 'warmed up' you just might find that by moving the listening chair (I assume you do all your critical listening from a centered seat in a close to equalateral triange) backward or forward (as little as 6" can may a huge difference in the bass) or the speakers but not so much, and take advantage of nulls or nodes caused by your room and or speaker/listening chair placement.
Just a WAG, but judging from your system photos you might yet have something to learn about set up and room acoustics. Just a guess mind you.
If you need help learning how to use a SPL meter just ask.
Good luck. |
I wish to retract what I said earlier about PSB support
I spoke to a representive at length today
He was patient+responsive but feels it's an acousticial issue
|
Fishing, Al (Almarg) and Ralph (Atmasphere). I just read above that there is speculation about the ability of the variosu amps used to drive low impedance speakers. Dunno for sure.
But if that is the culpret, then I see 3 options: (1) change the speakers; (2) change the amp; or (3) Zero Autofomers. Not sure what the least expensive route to take is.
As regards option #3, check the web site. I think the guy who came up with the idea will take the Zeros back if they don't work. I think #3 is about $1,000. Bummer. |
As I stated earlier, I am a Synchrony owner and have been in agreement with Al and Mapman from the start, due to the below 4 ohm impedance of the spkr in combination with integrated amps which do not list specs for 4 ohms.
BUT, Fishing716, I agree with using a SPL meter for the bass. Take a reading when amp is cold, then after an hour take another reading when amp is warmed-up. We'd all like to know the result.
After the test, I would move speakers 3' away from wall and 8 feet apart, toe-in and tell us what you hear. That is how my setup is and was recommended by my dealer. |
The naked autoformers are a lot less than $1K, IIRC. I'm going to discourage buying an amp w the intention of using it as a test vehicle and then returning it. It's not ethical and contributes to the difficulty in getting items for legitimate home demo. Can't fault your dealer- when you buy on-line there is not much that they can do for you. I think that buying and using an SPL meter is the best way to get an objective handle on the extent of the problem and point toward possible solutions. It certainly should help your credibility w dealer and manufacturer. |
Yes, SPL meter readings would help confirm that there is something truly going on physically with the setup as described. I do not doubt you hear what you hear, but it would be nice to be able to prove that what you hear is actually occurring and can be measured. Its much harder to get an obsective measure of what one hears as opposed to what the speakers are delivering. |
Fish, if it were me, with those speakers i would not use any integrated if I had the option in any case. I think you would find the right dedicated power amp to be a clear improvement all the time. That's why I suggest the option of buying/trying one. My assumption is that you would keep it if it resolves your problem and sounds better. If not, then have the option to return it. That's a good and fair practice anytime one buys a product in good faith. If it does not work out, then you always should have the option to return within a reasonable time period. Nothing wrong or unethical about customer satisfaction.
Now what to do with teh current amp in that case? that would depend on if it is working as designed, which it may be, or defective in some way. Testing it with an easier pair of speakers to drive would be needed to determine. If it can't drive an easy speaker load, then it may be defective, as opposed to just not up to the task of driving the PSBs specifically to their full potential. |
I agree with Mapman regarding a power amp. One option is an Emotiva; order online with a 30 day audition return policy. But first let's get the SPL test results. |
In order to use a power amp that means purchase of a preamp as well,correct?
I was interested in Bryston new line of pre/power & was informed by Mike there is no difference from the B135 integrated (which I owned) |
Sorry, Mapman. I misunderstood. I thought you were suggesting to get one just to test the theory. My bad. |
In order to use a power amp that means purchase of a preamp as well,correct? No, not necessarily. As I suggested previously, you could borrow or purchase a separate power amp, and drive it from the pre-out jacks that are provided on your M6i. You would then be using only the preamp section of the M6i, together with the separate power amp. Regards, -- Al |
I will ask my dealer Audio Salon if he would lend me an amplifer to try this procedure.
Also to Ralph,I tried your suggestion of pulling out interconnects when the bass fails then reconnecting..
I'm afraid that didn't work.
AP |
If someone lives close by in NYC would be welcome to come here & troubleshoot.
I admit not being an expert on these matters
Perhaps I'm doing something wrong |
As I have followed this post and looked around on the net, I just found this review on the AudioPrism III conditioner. I believe Fishing uses the II, which is very similar. What is interesting is the comment made in the 3rd paragraph from the end. They also make reference to a similar conditioner. Hopefully someone with more technical knowledge can explain why they say this. http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/db02.htm. |
Foundation II is placed on the floor behind components.
I've tried plugging the amp directly in the wall. Ocassionaly it would restore the better sound but generaly not.
I'm very impressed you noticed that in the article as it was easy to overlook.
I'll try moving the power conditioner or adding feet.
There certainly are alot of details to this hobby..
I allready know it's expensive,fustrating & not g/f friendly. |
Fish . . . I looked the dealer up on the internet. It appears he carries Bryston. If a Bryston amp can't drive those speakers, nothing can. I like the idea of trying an extremely robust amp like a Bryston.
But do check out Zero the autoformer web site. As I said, I seem to recall, if not satisfied, I think the guy will take the Zeros back and issue a refund. If nothing else, check out the web site to understand what Zeros do. In short, they are an impedance multiplier. Simply stated, under one setting, the Zeros can make your amp think its driving twice the impedance load than it really is, i.e., nominal 4 ohms x 2 equals 8 ohms. Your amp will take a vacation with shades. ;>) |
I had 2 Bryston integrated amps before switching to MF |
I hear the "correct sounding bass like blood flowing through the music..My feet are toe taping & I am never figidigy..
After between 1 hr & 3 the sound changes and the patient no longer has the same "blood type"..
My toe no longer taps and it's not worth listening any more.So I would say the difference is like night & day.
Today after the desired sound left I waited a few hrs but it didn't return.
I pulled out the speaker cables on one side of the amp and reconnected the other side in it's place.
After 3 tries back and forth the bass returned in full bloom with one speaker connected.
I settle with this as I don't wish to risk blowing the found sound trying to have both speakers working.
But a major clue seems to be that I can usually find a way to get one speaker working with deep bass after losing the sound from one or both.
For some reason when the amp peaks after an hr.or so there is a distruption or short somewhere.
Like the amp or speakers need to reboot
I resent having to go though this nonsence daily |
No way! Are the Bryston integrateds as muscular as a separate Bryston power amps. Call the factory and ask the techs. I can't go back to read all the steps taken to isolate the problem, but I assume working backwards you eliminated your source components (i.e., CDP and phono, as applicable), cables, etc.
If so, that could mean, as has been surmised above, the "true" impedance of your speakers may be lower than the nominal 4 ohms I seem to recall being mentioned. Actual versus "nominal" reported impedance stats can vary quite significantly and often do. Very few amps "like" driving into those kinds of loads. If a monster Bryston doesn't work, I think you go back to "Zeros" and see if that helps.
Btw, just an "fyi" I picked up some time ago when talking to Kal at ARC. He mentioned that ARC tube amps were used to drive Wilsons which have notoriously low impedance stats. Just an fyi.
Otherwise, as Al says, you have to consider the only remaining possibility, no matter how improbable: Poltergeists.
I'm going to see if your PSB speakers were bench tested by any of the reviewers. If so, I'll be back. |
I asked mike at Bryston when considering Preamp BP17 & power amp 2.5BSST
He said they were the same as B135sst integrated in seperate boxes |
Ok Fish..., here's what I got off the web.
HT Lab Test (12/07): The Synchrony One's listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +1.18/2.24 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz. The 3-dB point is at 56 Hz, and the 6-dB point is at 50 Hz. Impedance reaches a minimum of 3.32 ohms at 70 Hz and a phase angle of 37.55 degrees at 27 Hz.
SoundStage (1/08):
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/psb_synchrony_one/
The impedance magnitude and phase angle graphs are absolutely amazing!! I've never seen flatter. Problem is impedance over large swathes of frequencies is unbelievably low, especially in the bass frequencies.
Al and Ralph -- take a look at the graphs at the URL above. I'd like to read your thoughts about whether a solid state amp, or any amp for that matter, would get indigestion from those impedances. Fish ..., if Al and Ralph come back expressing concern, the Zeros are seriously looking like the solution.
BIF
|
Fishing, here is an article about the other conditioner that was referenced in the AudioPrism review. Its long, but read carefully @ Listening Up
the Game is Afoot. The last 3 sentences of the 1st paragraph seem to somewhat describe your problem. The next paragraph talks about positioning the conditioner, and further down shows a picture of a fairly extensive setup. http://www.soundstage.com/noisy15.htmI may be grasping at straws, but just trying to help. The best way to determine if the AudioPrism is causing a problem is to take it out completely. Just use something like a heavy duty outlet strip to get enough plugs for everything, and you probably will notice some degradation of sound, but play the system to see if the problem occurs. If it does, well just keep looking for other ideas. At least, this is something simple to do, and I don't think it is something you have tried. |
I've tried power strip recommended by Naim/one by emotiva/wall outlet & Audio prism.
The best sound was with the Foundation II.
Bass issues were never stabilized by anyone of them. |
that was very informative article
I often feel my turntable seems to sound better/longer than my cd player lasts.
And the Video dosen't last long at all
That's why I've been playing records alot lately.
Analog can't be beat anyway..
The best CD players I've had were
Linn ikemi,Bryston BCD-1 & Sony SCD-1
Ayre wasn't my cup of tea for some reason..
Currently autitioning Naim CD5 XS but after one cd the sound changes for the worse.I prefer not to misjudge this player when the full frequency's are messed up.
This probably happened while auditioning Ayre CX7 eMP.
Source components with relatively low voltage power supplies (usually 25 volts or less) will tend to have broader current pulses with lower peaks. Larger components with higher voltage power supplies, like amplifiers, will have current pulses that are shorter in duration, and higher in magnitude (amps). This is because amplifiers have to get all their power during the small portion of the AC waveform that is higher in voltage than the power supply in the amplifier. The current pulses vary in frequency and peak depending on the frequencies and volume level of the music being played. These current demands may well be the reason that it is not too unusual for mid-priced PLCs ($300 - $600) to sound like they are limiting amplifier performance instead of making them sound better. Mike VansEvers is designing his PLCs to cope with those short duration, high current demands from audio components. |
Bifwynne
What does "the zeros" are looking like the solution mean? |
I would not use any power conditioner on power amp or integrated (which includes power amp) unless it is rated to deliver enough power and current. Use it with source devices and pre-amp but not device that provides power (integrated in this case). Most power conditioners that are suitable for use with high power amps are somewhat expensive due to build quality and power delivery capability needed.
I would keep power conditioner out of the equation with the integrated for now. Once issue is resolved, then you might try it and see. IT could well be contributing to the problem. Wish I knew it was in use earlier...... |
Here is the info on the Autoformer Zeros DevicesI agree that these appear to be a viable solution for providing your amp a load that it is more suited to drive. Resulting sound should be different, but assuming the amp/speaker load match is the issue, which seems the most likely still, this should resolve any issues with not enough gas for the bass at reasonable volumes. |
Should be different for the better.
I'm pretty sure the BRyston amp you would need to drive the PSB load effectively is not the same as what you would find in any typical integrated amp, but have not done the research on Bryston specs to say for sure. I would not equate any high power integrated to top notch similar powered separate amps without having the numbers in front of me that establish that. |
I would keep power conditioners out of the equation period. The symptoms occur with system warm up. If anything the OP should be backtracking to find out where it all started. |
