BaerWald vs VPI setup protractors

Dear @slaw : That's precesily what I do each single day_ Enjoy the Music.

If you know enough in what ever audio subject and you read a non-sense post as the one by syntax where he only speaks because has mouth but he gave no single fact where he founded his post:

Do you stay quiet when those kind of false almost stupid post only contaminates to each single audiophile?
Maybe you can stay quiet but I think that each one of us that post something in audio forums have a responsability with all other members and the first responsability is not share false statements.

Well, that's me.

R.

Dear @melm : What did you not understand of what I posted?:

"  0.18% in that precise groove and that gentleman said produce a " sonic impact " that could means he can hear it ! .................................................................... whom can detect ( human been. ) a diference of only: 0.003 ! ! and this trend goes groove after groove and is imposiible...."


@melm , the noise floor of your audio system is way higher than that distortion levels and by a wide marging.

Obviously that only an ignorant of those facts can posted as that gentleman on that OP regards. 

And an ignorant person is that who knows nothing on a specific subject like the one we are dialoging here.

And if you insit in posts as your latest then you are an ignorant too and not because you don't agree with me but because you can't prove I'm wrong. Those values were measured through the alignment calculations.

Come on melm.

R.

Dear @gillatgh and friends: That no sense post by @syntax only speaks about his extremely high ignorance levels in that specific alignment regards.

Look:

if we take a 254mm as the effectuive length on a pivoted tonearm the alignment calculations with Löfgren A (Baerwald), Löfgren B and Stevenson A shows what we can look in this VE calculator through the charts:

https://www.vinylengine.com/tonearm_alignment_calculator_pro.php?arm1=Arm+1&l1=el&a1lv=254&a...

taking the results between null points we can observe that between Löfgren A(Baerwald) and Löfgren B the higher distortion level difference in between these alignments is around:  0.28%, that's around 85mm in the recorded groves area.

Which is the distortions down there?:  Löfgren A  : 0.57% and Lófgren B:  0.39% so the difference in between is only: 0.18% in that precise groove and that gentleman said produce a " sonic impact " that could means he can hear it !

Now, I said that if any two decent kind of alignments are made it in accurate way it's almost imposible that we can listen that " soniic impact " because the distortion% levels are changing at each single groove.

If ( example ) we take Löfgren B difference between 85mm  and 86mm the distortion levbel is just unlistable for no one because at 86mm the distortion level is: 0.393%

whom can detect ( human been. ) a diference of only: 0.003 ! ! and this trend goes groove after groove and is imposible to detect through all the LP recorded surface that " sonic impact ".

We can detect a sonic impact when we use that stupid Stevenson A alignment becvause the distoertion level differences are way higher than both Löfgren alignments.

If we analize against VPI alignment the differences are extremely low as between Löfgren A and B.

People think that because an audiophile owns a megabuck ( $$$$ ) audio system he must be an expert but that gentleman is everything you want but an expert and not only that here are facts that proves his ignorance level. What he shows in your system is that he is a whealthy gentleman and nothing more than that.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @2channel8: Many of us, it appeared maybe 30+ years ago.


Dear friends: 

The main subject here other that @gillatgh has his answer is what @melm : """  But as for me, as long as I'm bothering, I try to get it as close to Lofgren A as I can. At least it makes system evaluaton more consistent. """

The VPI owners always been " there " using the supplied VPI JIG and don't try to change the VPI alignment type because is totally useless. You can't have a true advantage because on pivoted tonearms in any kind/type of alignment exist trade-offs. The VPI are very good choosed trade-offs.

Other than Stevenson A we all need to choose only one alignment set up that be made it with accuracy.

Sellers of protractors always are trying to sell us protractors that comes with several alignment choices, why?: because they only want to take our money and their arguments on why we have to have their protractors has no true foundations but only takes advantage of our very high level of our IGNORANCE about .

Over the years I gave as a gift to the sellers of protractors  my money because my  very high level of ignorance on the alignment tonearm/TT/cartridge set up.

The culprit of all that has its origins in the irresponsability of almost all the tonearms manufacturers.



R.

Dear @melm @lewm : """  Audiophile insecurity and smart promotion drives many hobbyists to the most expensive devices when the simple one will do the job. """

That statement is correct, the issue is why audiophiles go or gone looking for those protractors including the very expensive ones.

@cleeds posted something critical for that issue :  "  That precision is iffy and varies depending on the gauge and the arm. A dedicated gauge doesn’t suffer that problem. "

The key words there are: DEDICATED GAUGE:

that is a MAIN responsability of any tonearm manufacturer, it's him whom must gives that dedicated gauge along each tonearm to each of their customers as VPI is doing it.

The problem is that almost all of us, no, all of us through the years accepted ( by ignorance. ) to bougth/buy tonearms with a " ridiculous " align gauge that were totally non-accurated.

As time pass on we all started to learn step by step the critical importance of accuracy when we do our tonearm/TT/cartridge geometry alignment parameters set up and was through the time that we took in count that what the tonearm manufactures gave to us just is totally unaccurated and we have to look for an after market protractors.
I own no less that 15 protractors that includes all the ones named here but the more expensive and I did not buy it because I already understanded that that protractor can't gives nothing different that can help me, even can't really helps to any one.

So, it's the tonearm manufacturer whom must gives that accurated alignment gauge.

The after market protractor manufacturers took advantage from that irresponsability of the tonearm manufacturers and from our each one ignorance levels.

Even today some tonearm manufacturers and several audiophiles just understand in fully way the overall theory behind the tonearm/cartridge alignment set up.

Was Löfgren the gentleman that invented ( yes invented. ) the necessity of tonearm/cartridge accurated alignment and he gave his solutions through his mathematics ( geometry mainly. ) on those Löfgren equations.

Was from his equations where other persons try to made modifications with out real success. Baerwald is one of them where his solution is the same as the one invented by Löfgren ( A ). But was not only Baerwald whom made it something similar but other gentlemans too even Stevenson who had a similar solution to Lófgren A and other solution named Stevenson A where he made on purpose that coincide the inner null point exactly with the must inner groove distance that's a Löfgren input parameter in his equations.

So, how many kind of alignments we really need? 2 or 3 or one dedicated for one specific tonearm?

Not really, we only need one accurated Löfgren A or B alignment protractor and that's all and that is what tonearm manufacturers must have to understand and are responsable to give to each of their customers.

The input parameters in those Löfgren equations are: effective length, inner must groove distance and outer must groove distance.
Then the equations gives the alignment parameters: overhang, off-set angle, both null points and by difference P2S and that's it.

As some one posted here:  " no brain cirgury " or " rocket science ", really easy to understand.

Anything out of standard Löfgren solutions are only manipulations of those equations but nothing more and are no better than the original Löfgren solutions but at the end even if could be a sign of better alignment you can't detected if what you have was accurated set up.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @gillatgh:  """  about half a millimeter. Can this small amount of variance have a sonic impact? """

none.  Think on this: the difference between Löfgren A(Baerwald as you said. ) and Löfgren B is around that half mm in the overhang value with the same offset angle.

Differences in tracking error between both kind of alignments are at minimum both Löfgren alignments shows traking error distortions and the real true difference is where those distortions happens, this is before, after in between alignment null points. What changes is where its happening on each Löfgren alignment type.

Now, overall and does not matters if Löfgren A or B Or VPI the distortion level is changing at each single groove through the LP surface and this means that no one can detect a true difference ( with sonic impact as you said. ) due that changes at each single groove are so so to small. You can measure but can't detect tghose so small changes no matter what.

So, stay with VPI alignment . If VPI and Löfgren/Baerwald alignments were made it in accurate way then no sonic impact detectable for you.

Regards,
R.

Dear @gillatgh: If the tonearm is mounted by VPI just forgeret to use other kind of alignment geometry. The VPI JIG was made it expressely for your 10.5i and in reality doing a change to LÖfgren A/Baerwald or Löfgren B  can´t makes a true and listeabler differences for the better in your tonearm.

I don't have evidence or read evidence that says the VPI JIG is non-accurated, as a fact I read it's.

The advantage to use the VPI JIG is that the tonearm is mounted with very high accuracy degree and the JIG works around that.

Which the problem you are listening with the VPI dedicated JIG alignment. Are you unsatisfied and why?

The name of the game  in any tonearm/cartridge alignment type geometry is accuracy and if your set up is accurated this is enough and you don't have to change it. Why should you or any one VPI owner?

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.