Bad Experience with Conrad Johnson

What a crybaby, sour grapes, ’me me me’ post. Those two pieces have been around for quite some time. There are ample reviews and descriptions online. I’m not sure where you purchased your pieces, I’m assuming they were vintage or used and the immaturity of expecting CJ to jump through hoops because you, with your engineering prowess and extensive business acumen, called looking for a bargain to solve your problem. You can buy the boxes Big Spender...

So you bought a 10 year old product used. Then you expect the manufacturer to treat you like you bought it new? And they did! The old owners designed it , you’re bitching at the wrong people. I’ll even bet you weren’t real pleasant either. 

Sorry you had issues with CJ. I own current CJ gear, preamp and amp’s running 6922’s but have never had noise problem or eating NOS tubes. Anytime I call they always answer phone or will call you back, maybe I’ve been lucky I’ve always had good luck with there service over the phone.

I always keep my boxes. If you look at the quality of their boxes which are double boxes and very nice skeleton foam inserts I don’t think asking price is that terrible.

I had to buy a Linn LP12 box last year which I thought was high but wouldn’t ship without it.

@vdotman 

I agree with you. This subject has been talked to death, and it's time to bury it. Everything has been said and repeated twenty times.

@yoyoyaya I agree on that with you. They are entitled to put whatever margin they want on the box, and the customer will decide. 

All I am saying is to label things correctly (e.g. shipping $35, handling $35)

Sad to hear this from CJ, well is it still CJ?  I had CJ gear for years. I have talked to Bill and Lew a few times over the in the past. They werr always very helpful.  I have moved on to Pass Labs, but still very sad to hear.

As everyone should already know, it is both the weight and the size of the box that affects the shipping cost, plus I'm sure CJ adds some of their overhead cost into the transaction. I recently contacted a speaker manufacturer about buying empty shipping cartons and after he told me what the actual cost would be, we both agreed it wasn't practical. It is perplexing to me that with so much more important stuff to talk about and share, we still find ourselves going down pointless rabbit holes where at the end of the day, it's a "yes" or "no" decision on the part of the individual. Caveat Emptor.

The OP is angry because he doesn’t like the way CJ designed the product he purchased. How is that CJ’s problem?

The cost of the boxes likely reflects the true cost to C-J. 
 

The company has changed a bit from the early days (I owned an MV-75A-1 until I sold it this year), now catering to the highest income 1%, but my interactions over the years with Lew, Bill, Bill, and Ed showed them to be outstanding individuals who cared far more about sharing their enthusiasm for music reproduction than anything else. I don’t have experience with the new owner, but have heard lots of positive comments. BTW, I live a few miles from the factory, and it’s in an upscale industrial park. Very nice.

The most important aspect of this thread concerns the preamp design that “eats” tubes. It’s precisely why I didn’t consider purchase of an ET-5 or ET-7 from this series when I replaced my preamp from a few years ago. If I had known of the ability to substitute other tube types, then my decision might have been different, as these are VERY nice sounding preamps. 

@lion

+1

thanks for chiming in alan (a longtime, experienced and dedicated audiophile, with whom i have bought/sold with in the past several times), and good to see you posting here

@ghasley

+1 as well on your comment

only thing i would add is if the correct tube is used, the et3se isn’t noisy... as usual if one is properly informed and knows what one is doing, desired results are achievable

OP, you weren't a CJ customer, you were a CJ user. Big difference. When you buy used, you take your chances, you are buying the seller (who probably forgot to tell you it was a noisy preamp).

Not all boxes and packing are created equal.

A proper package is designed to protect the product from damage and is subjected to engineering laboratory shock and vibration testing prior to approval.

Conrad Johnson uses mostly heavy duty double-walled boxes and die-cut polyethylene foam inserts which can be quite expensive to manufacture.

Further, CJ does not set shipping costs. These are set by UPS, Fedex, and others who have gone to a formula called "dimensional weight" for assessing cost.

This is a tricky way of saying that whether a package is large or heavy, the shipper will pick whatever is most favorable to them. So a light, empty box that is large costs basically the same as a box with an amp inside.

The CJ box and shipping prices are a reflection of the lab costs, manufacturing costs, warehouse storage costs, order processing costs, and shipping costs. So sorry, they are not cheap or free. But the proper box will insure damage-free shipping and that is a good thing.

Thx,

A Slater retired Packaging Engineer

Sorry, but no one is entitled to money for nothin’ and chicks for free.  

How about those who play the guitar on the MTV?

OP purchased 10yr old used equipment then expected the company to drop everything so they could assist him.  But the company provided a solution that may lead to better longterm performance at a lower price.  7dj8 and 6h23p are cheaper, better sounding, and last longer than 6922 variants.   This information was conveyed for free.   

Heavy Duty custom size boxes cost money and paperboard prices keep going up.  Insurance, fuel costs and shipping company wages continue to rise…  But corresponding sale prices should remain at 2019 levels….

It is easy to pack a delicate item with sufficient protection to withstand the rigors of shipping   All that is needed are careful thought and time.  
 

I have shipped heavy, glass faced McIntosh equipment to the other side of the world, using my packing materials.  I have shipped 50lb speakers half way around the world, using my packing materials.  I have shipped numerous tube amps to just about everywhere, using my packing materials.   I have experienced just a single incident of shipping damage.   Large, fragile items can take up to an hour to carefully pack, and most items take abt 30min.  I have constructed a wooden case shipping case for a McIntosh MR 71 tuner, then packed the case and made it ready for shipment in abt 45 min from start to finish.  I have less than zero woodworking or construction skills.  

The OP purchased used but wanted a new and sealed purchase experience without paying for the extra support.   
 

Sorry, but no one is entitled to money for nothin’ and chicks for free.  
 

@grislybutter. Your grasp of business economics and syntax is impressive. To be precise, my reference to margin and selling referred to the boxes - which the company was offering to sell to the customer.

@yoyoyaya it seems hopeless but I will try: they are NOT selling shipping. They are selling amps. Putting margin on shipping is not a thing*. If everyone put a margin on everything they are not selling, just their product or service was once affected by, the price of a candy bar would be a 1000 dollars.

*handling is a thing

I ran CJ equipment for more than 25 years.  Still have a 2275 in the closet (with factory box) for a spare if I have to service one of my amps. Never had a problem with service other than at times it was rather slow.  I even delt with Jeff when he was a tech.  Always very personable.  Of  course things sometimes change when you become the boss.  I think what's missing here is the tone of the conversation(s).  I think if the OP was honest, he may not have been the most pleasant person to deal with either.

I live in the area and when I passing by their location the business looks kind a shady, looks like some garage establishment without even company name signs.

The OP refers to having purchased a mint condition set of amplifiers. That implies that they were purchased second hand. The OP might clarify.

The OP called the company and received valuable technical advice.

The OP's request for empty boxes was positively responded to and boxes were offered, noting that the manufacturer has no obligation to supply boxes as a separate item.

As regards the price, I'm sure the company will put a margin on anything it sells as indeed it needs to if it want's to stay in business.

It looks to me as if the OP was well and fairly treated by the company.

protest is a strong word. Enough for me to protest it

@grislybutter : what were you protesting about? Tell me again. I lost track. Bikes? Or why you only have one Ferrari instead of four? You always protest.

@thyname it was a joke. I realize audiophiles have nearly zero sense of humor but that won't prevent me from trying

Hi There clearthinker,

What's with the judgement bro?

Riddle me this Batman. Someone has a preamp in San Francisco for sale but the buyer is in Texas.  How does the buyer listen to the preamp first before buying.

I splurged on the bike. It has breaks!

BRAKES :)

Walmart bikes have no brakes? Shocking!

shipping from Italy is an entirely different adventure though. I regularly ship from and to all over Europe, India - the shipping business within the US is a breeze and a fraction of the cost compared to World-wide shipping.

It's a pretty amazing system (I used to write code for a logistics company's routing components) and Amazon further revolutionized the already super efficient chain of moving boxes.

OP,

I am sorry to hear about your experience.

On the other hand, Conrad Johnson is a small company producing extremely good audiophile products. It does not excuse poor customer interactions… but on the other hand they do not have the volume to allow negative financial transactions on components produced a decade ago. Maybe the person you talked to was having a bad day.

I have a friend that is a dealer. He had to get boxes for a set of Sonus Faber speakers. It cost $900… most of it was shipping… from Italy. I am sure CJ came up with a formula to cover their costs… regardless of what they labeled the expense.

In general, audiophile equipment is incredibly reliable. I have owned different components for a couple decades over the last fifty years and never had a failure (Sonic Fronties CD transport aside). Conrad Johnson makes incredibly great audiophile equipment… I want to point out audiophile… as in expensive. So, while failures are rare, you need to understand, this is expensive stuff, and penny pinchers is the audience they cater to. 
 

I coached a friend of mine into buying a Conrad Johnson preamp and amp thirty years ago. He replaced the tubes about ten years ago. He has loved the system from the first day. This is the typical story.

@roxy54 my daily struggle with the English language :)

I think that you mean brakes @grislybutter , but for $300 I guess they aren't hydraulic disc brakes.

I splurged on the bike. It has breaks!

BRAKES :)

I do not drive a Porsche nor a Ferrari. 

Apologies. I thought you were an active participant on a “911” discussion 

I am happy on two wheels, my 300 dollar bike.

Three hundred American dollars on a bike?!? Last time I checked on my local Walmart bikes were way lower than that! You have been scammed! 🤯

@thyname I clearly said: calling it shipping and handling and charging $70 is fine. Calling it shipping and refusing the buyers label is dishonest. It's a communication issue, not a business policy issue.

@grislybutter : read my comment again. What’s your solution? 

@thyname

Exactly! They should call it shipping AND HANDLING. But they didn’t. Read the post. They said "SHIPPING".

If they said SHIPPING AND HANDLING. that would have been different.

And yes, 70 dollars for the 23 dollars actual cost is unreasonable. I do not understand your point, shipping is SHIPPING. It’s an expense, it’s what you pay for a THIRD party service. Not the seller! It has nothing to do with how much it saves or makes for the buyer.

If they charged X for the box for your reasoning, that would make sense, I see ZERO logic in your arguments.

I do not drive a Porsche nor a Ferrari. I never could have would have said that. In fact, I do not own a car. Luckily I don’t need one. I am happy on two wheels, my 300 dollar bike.

What CJ was going to charge for was handling.

Yeah, that’s why it’s called “shipping AND HANDLING”. Never heard that before?

And of course, if you don’t like the price, don’t do it. Why the protestation?

70 dollars is f-d up.

Really? If that cost will save you hundreds of dollars in selling your components by being able to charge hundreds of dollars more? I do not understand. Too much protesting or protestation. Again.

Or.. You keep the original box. Which I do. I learned the trick 20 years ago. How tough is that?

Of course I am poor, and I don’t understand how the World works.

But you drive a Porsche ( or a Ferrari, I don’t really remember)? 911. Obviously nothing wrong with that, kudos for killing it! It’s just a matter of the priorities where you spend that $70 (seventy American dollars)

What I don’t understand is why would a tube that costs twice as much and lasts half as long make such a huge difference in a preamp that was designed for 6922 tubes.  Yes the 7dj8 is it is a better sounding tube, but the difference between 6 and seven volts shouldn’t be the answer. 

🤷‍♂️

You are very welcome. Have a great weekend!

jperry,

Well, thank you for that wonderful insight.  You are such a cute smatchet

It seems very expensive indeed for the boxes and shipping, as my Dad used to say "they got you by the short hairs" . The FedEx store or UPS store may be a better option. It will suit you fine. 

it's been a slow few days on the forum, wild comments about old members and scolding one for finding 70 dollars high for shipping. 

I know you are (most of you) super rich and don't care. But shipping is for most cases BY WEIGHT! And I just checked, a box this size ships from Boston to San Diego or Miami to Seattle for 23 dollars by UPS. I gave it the exact size and a generous 12lbs.

70 dollars is f-d up. These companies have UPS and Fedex accounts and can ship at discounts. What CJ was going to charge for was handling. e.g. Jasmine to walk back to the storage get the box, fill out and print the form and leave in the corner for the shipping company to pick up. Which is not a criminal act, it's fair to charge for her time but certainly not the norm in this case and she should have called it that. 

I have been printing my own shipping labels on parcel monkey for a decade and nobody has refused it. It makes their lives easier, saves them 3 minutes of filling out the form. Of course I am poor, and I don't understand how the World works. (If I did, I would be rich :)  ) 

I own a gat2, and it’s a great preamp. No tube noise and I use original stock. Make sure the router is located far far away from the preamp as this would cause interference as these are radar tubes.

I have called the company before and sometimes don’t return the call. But they have a very challenging job to deal with all these incoming calls using a skeleton crew I am sure.

I wonder what tubes might be better with the gat2 as I may have to get them replaced soon. I also wonder if a power cord change would be worthwhile but the cord provided seems to be very good. The interconnect cables i use are transparent ultra and they seem nice, pair is listed at $1800 for a meter.

Boxes are very expensive, never ever throw hifi boxes away.

I now have to think about preparing lunch.

@richiekess +1

That has been my experience with Bryston also, above and beyond any other customer service I have encountered.

Regards,

barts

For whatever it's worth, I had to have some work done by Bryston  on my BDP-2 and they could not have been better to work with. It was sort of startling how friendly and helpful they were.

@wkass ,

I've nothing of value to add to this discussion, but thanks for teaching me a new word; 'smatchet.' And the clever context in which you used it!

As a manufacturer, we typically do not order many extra boxes so they become one off orders for units that are no longer in production, plus the box manufacturers are not always in business making the same products so prices can be that high. If you were concerned about shipping, you probably could have arranged to have them shipped to you by opening up your own FedEx account.  Shipping these says has become very expensive for nothing boxes.

Designs change over time and while the preamp probably was competitive back in the day, parts, tubes, etc., all change hopefully for the better.  It is hard for a manufacturer to fix an old issues and in your case offered a solution that did not require you to send them the unit and perform any type of repair.

Overall I do understand your frustration, but they seemed to have answered your question and offered a solution.  They even answered the phone. Maybe not White Glove service but I would say they did respond and offered an easy solution to your issue.

Happy Listening.

Hi there cheapskate.

I agree with most here re the boxes.  The prices are not unreasonable for large hi-tech boxes that will protect these products correctly and the associated handling costs.

And OP should know that overland shipping is priced by volume not by weight.  So the fact they are empty makes no difference.

And why didn't he audition the amps???  Then he would have heard the noise and this saga would have never happened.

jperry,

Well, thank you for that wonderful insight.  You are such a cute smatchet.

I am sorry you made a bad decision on a 10+ year old preamp that was out of production. Also very sorry they took your call and answered your questions, even though you were apparently slow to understand the answers.

I am very sad that they had boxes for the equipment and sold them to you for what seems to be a reasonable price considering the components had not been produced for more than a decade.

I hope you have better experiences in the future.

@smerk Exactly, could not agree with you more.  I have his SET 400 power amp. 

By the way, I hear he is having some healthcare issues right now so I hope he gets well soon.  Take care.