The biggest downside of B&W are there crossovers in general. I owned the 802N and 800S in the past. When I auditioned the 800D I stopped. Why? Because a deep and wide stage is the most stunning part in highend audio. When it is not there you miss the essential part to the absolute sound. At shows I hear it is still the same problem. The stage is not as wide and deep as could be. These days I only sell and focus on 3-diemnsional image for all my clients. Most shops still sell most of the time 2-dimensional sound, this is old fashion and less involving compared to 3-dimensional sound. I still send my clients to shops where they sell speakers like B&W to understand the difference between 3-dimensional and 2-dimensional sound. It is that simple!
OMG!!!! Bo the OP in NO way asked about the 2D- 3D that you use as an agenda to criticize B&W All OVER the forums. GIVE IT A REST ALREADY!!!!!! He asked about the design of how the woofers are attached to the baffle.
If you do not have a comment that is directly related to the OP why do you insist on posting the same CRAP over and over to the point that it is nauseating. WE get it, YOU ONLY LIKE A SPEAKER THAT CAN GIVE A 3D SOUND STAGE WITH A HUGE DEPTH AND WIDTH. AND ACCORDING TO YOU B&W DOES NOT.
And because you and you alone know what is best because you worked all those years in the business.
Get over yourself. YOU JUST HAVE NEVER SET UP B&W PROPERLY IN ORDER TO GET A 3D STAGE THAT IS DEEP AND WIDE FROM THEM.
What a troll.
I see using crossovers which cannot make a deep and wide stage as a downside in general. It is my personal opinion. I owned and sold them for many years. It is based on facts. They still make fine speakers, but it is as it is.
Per Bo...."I owned and sold them for many years. It is based on facts."
Bo1972, kindly site the "facts" that the B&W's cannot make a deep soundstage? I would like to read this in writing. If you cannot provide these "facts", then please understand that your conclusion is based merely on your opinion. And as the above poster pointed out, perhaps its based on your inexperience - you simply don't know how to properly set up a pair of B&W's to achieve a deep soundstage.
but if you have "facts", then that is another story. I would love to read about the "facts". Have a nice day.
Bo, I've seen you state many times that it was the crossover in the B&W's that prevent them from giving the soundstage that you prefer. I'm interested in how you came to this conclusion as I would think it could be the crossovers, the driver designs themselves, the cabinet shape and construction or a combination of all four variables that would cause the B&W's to fall short of your standards.
What sort of experiments, or substitutions of crossovers/drivers/cabinets did you do that allowed you to so definitively come to the conclusion that the crossovers themselves are the single culprit?
It is very simple; You use the same amo, pre amp, source, cables and conditioner on different speakers with the same music. So you can vompare how the stage is build. The stage with the 800D was quite small and not a lot of depth. When you use the same stuff with other speakers and the stage is superior in wide and depth you understand what you miss. I had to admit that it was a lot. So I sold the B&W. A deep and wide stage is another level in listening to the same music with a small stage. You can't go back anymore. You would be a fool. It is that simple!
When I am at shows and I listen with my own music to the new B&W speakers I think; mannnn you don't want this!! That is why I demonstrate only 3-dimensional sound. I send people to shops where they sell B&W. That is how I use these speakers still. Only to let people understand what they will miss. This is a very simple and convincing way that 3 dimensional sound is superior to 2-dimensional sound. You have to keep things clear and simple in audio!
Today's infomercial from Bo is even more irrelevant to the OP's question than usual...
Ok, Bo, which brand of speakers give the 3d sound? I remember you poo-pooing the JBLs, but you admitted that you haven't heard the latest Synthesis models including the S4700s I currently use.
Open mouth and insert foot (again) does the Bo-meister.
Funny I get 3D soundstage with any speakers in my system. I
always thought that it came from the preamp that I design and
build. I wonder, if I had Bo speakers I may get 4D???
Me make funny!!!
Today's infomercial from Bo is even more irrelevant to the OP's question than usual...
So true, however, I'm sure he just couldn't hold back. If you only read the title of this post, "B&W design quality observation. Any downside", that's like the straight man of a comedy duo giving a "feed" to his partner.
You Always can compare the depth and wide of any speaker with eachother. When you do this for a living, that is a normal thing. Selling audio is Always about comparing and you choose for the one you prefer most. Yes or no? My focus is on giving people a more deep and wide stage. It is very easy to let people hear the difference in stage. And what the advantages are compared to a less deep and wide stage. There is no hocus pocus in this. The same we do with amps. When you use the same speakers, cables and source you hear the difference of an amp in sound, control, individual focus, resolution and stage depth and wide.
B&W can give some depth, but it is not of the same level as Magico, Avalon or Monitor Audio Platinum this does. This is not subjective. This is something what is the most easiest thing to hear and understand. I sold B&W for many many years and I owned them also for a long period. Then you can compare them with many other speakers. In this profession we compare and test so many stuff.
Many things in audio are a lot more simple and predictable when you compare all the time.
And some people are predictably simple all the time.
I have great sound staging and holographic (3D) effect with my 800's. In my experience, almost any speaker can present a great soundstage with the right setup and equipment. In fact, many people who listen to my system comment how much it sounds like surround sound with equally impressive wide separation. I guess I have been lucky that I am not on the speaker roller coaster ride.
You'll all laugh but my favorite speakers were B&W DM602's. I paid $600 for them new in 1997 and they were just amazing for me. I bought CM7's that I thought sucked the head after that but those 602's were some rock and roll speakers. I was tipped off by a friend who worked at a high end store about them.
I now have a different taste in music and I will not refer to it as more mature, although it might be. Who cares. It's not Important. I'll always consider those B&W's some amazing favorites.
Audioquest4life, This has happened to me too with my 802D;
"In fact, many people who listen to my system comment how much it sounds like surround sound with equally impressive wide separation."
I used to have a pair of B&W 805 Sig for the rear surrounds. Well I turned them off and while playing a movie or music I would ask people how well can they hear the rear speakers? Then I would ask them to check them by putting their ear up to it. When they found out they were off the whole time it just blow their mind. They could not get over how IMMERSED AND 3D THE SOUND-STAGE WAS!DO YOU HEAR THAT BO!
I was at a dealer before I bought my 802D. They had a pair of 804 that I was demoing. I could not get over the 3D sound stage it was producing. I got up and walked around them and the room trying to see if they were using something else to make this happen.
So I say to Bo, OPINION IT IS NOT, BULLSHIT IT IS. Saying the moon is made out of green cheese is not an opinion, it is BULLSHIT. Saying the the sun revolves around the earth is not an opinion, it is BULLSHIT. Saying it is the crossovers is not an opinion, it is BULLSHIT. YOU have NO STUDY or PROOF of it.
And PLEASE do NOT site 'I heard them at audio shows" as PROOF. I have heard some of the best sounding equipment in the world sound HORRIBLE at shows and dealers.
Now do not misunderstand me. Some speakers do a better job of it then others. But NOT to the extent that Bo says of B&W, at least of the last several generations, maybe more.
You tout yourself as an authority and that is way I can not let you go unanswered. And because your opinion is not an opinion it is BULLSHIT.
Speaking of bullshit, Bo likes to poo-poo certain brands of speakers, and in this case B&W, which he relishes in bashing. While touting his favorites and stuff he sells like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. I mean Monitor Audio? Really? They're Chinese made, and to me are just ok but no big deal. I would say B&W are better, imo. As I said before, he did the same to JBL citing that the crossovers were poor, and then later admitted he did not ever hear JBL's high end Synthesis line! lol.
Bottom line, take this guy with a grain of salt. He's really not worth our time, attention, or anything else really. However, reading his crap and the responses here make for some good comedy!
We compare loudspeakers all the time. We Compared the B&W as well often with others. B&W also has a factory for there speakers in China. Think before you speak. It is a lot cheaper for all these brands to have a factory over there. In our country many people in audio know the differences in stage. JBL makes different level in speakers. A JBL 250 ti cannot give a deep and wide stage. Read better, I said; I did not test the horn speakers of JBL. Every person I invite overhere to compare B&W with Monitor Audio in stage. Things are exactly as I wrote them. Go to a shop and use Pass Labs amps. Compare a B&W 800 and Monitor Audio Platinum loudspeaker in wide and in depth. We do this all the time.
Audio ia about facts. B&W makes there speakers in China. So Dave now they are crap? There are reasons why they make them over there. Respons and depth and wide is something you can easily compare. Question: Is there a test with a direct test of a B&W 800 speaker compared to a Magico, or Avalon or Monitor Audio? There is not. Why? Because they have not the gutts to test it like this. Many tests are done with only one pair. In higher price levels you seldom find tests where they compare speakers togheter. They will not take the risk. Brands often pay magazines a lot of money for advertising. I prefer direct comparison. This is what I do all the time. I just give a demo of speakers, amps, cables, conditioner, sources etc. These people have all the freedom to compare. It is my work to give them the best sound for there money.
More Bo'isms or since Bo loves music so much, a few more of Bo's greatest hits.
"I owned and sold them for many years. It is based on facts."
You posted this on 10/16 and I asked you for the facts to prove that B&W's cannot make a deep soundstage. I am still waiting.
"Audio ia about facts, B&W makes there speakers in China."
I got news for you Bo. The science of audio equipment design and engineering is based on facts. How it all comes together and what we eventually hear, is all subjective. But you seem to believe, and this is the scary part, that what you perceive while listening, is a fact. You perceive that B&W's cannot make a deep soundstage, so you proclaim your opinion as "FACT". I guess your the type who would proclaim that world is ending during a total eclipse of the sun too. It is merely your opinion Bo and nothing more.
So in conclusion, either your hearing is so absolute that you are truly the final word in audio and therefore something other than human. Or you have no clue as to the definitions of opinion vs. fact or the subjective vs. objective. I believe it is the latter and suggest you need to go back to school and spend a little less time in audio forums.
Stage wide and depth is not about perception. It can be heard and it can be compared. Yes or no?
I will make a thread and aks if there are people who also did the comparison with 800 speakers.
Follow the thread.
I know this is a little deep for you.
Yes, it can be heard and compared. The opinion given by the listener on whether it is wide and deep is perception. Nothing more. It cannot be measured.
So chill out Dude. As I said earlier, the world isn't ending just because there is a full eclipse of the sun.
Have a nice day in your alternate universe.
A good tube preamp can 3D a 40 year pair of Advents.
Bo, B&W's 800 Series Line IS NOT MADE IN CHINA!! They do make others in China.
HOWEVER, and this is not just for Bo, WHERE AUDIO EQUIPMENT IS MADE HAS NO BEARING ON HOW WELL IT SOUNDS OR IS MADE.
Some of the BEST sounding Audio is coming from Poland, Italy, Eastern Europe, Taiwan, etc.
If you want or believe that your equipment should be made in the USA, well God Bless, but that does not mean the other Audio equipment made elsewhere is inferior.
Schubert, I agree, it is SYNERGY. Even the room can have a great impact. And MOST people DO NOT know how to properly set up speakers to give their best sound (Bo, you hear me calling your name) so they look to better cables, amps, etc. Meanwhile all they had to do is move the speaker into the right position and BOOM it all falls into place.
It is NOT easy getting your speakers in the best position.
There are still many speakers and amps as well who cannot give a very deep and wide stage. Ofcource it doens't matter were it is made. Audio is all about sound quality. There are many speakers which wil not give a lot of depth and wide. Most presentations at shows are 2-dimensional.
Bo: Again, you're referring to an old discontinued speaker, which is actually really good to be honest. Thanks for admitting that you've never heard the Synthesis line. I swear that you wrote that JBL are 2-D and lacking in depth with poor crossovers. I'm almost positive in fact. Imo, I think JBL Synthesis smokes Monitor Audio and is as good or better than the B&W 800 series. This is of course opinion, and not fact.
The first times I have cross paths with Bo on this forum I have tried to reason with him, but as you all here know, trying to have a dialog with him is like trying to have a dialog with a talking parrot. Over time I grew tired with him trashing one post after another and I have expressed my dissatisfaction with him quite a few times. I have even alerted the moderators about him. Strangely enough, I was most often in minority - people seemed to be more amused by his bad English than annoyed his lack of respect for the threads and the contributors to this forum. I am very glad to finally find a thread where I am not in minority anymore. :)
You are not alone Paul and I believe you are actually in the majority. I think our friend Bo has lost so much credibility here at Audiogon, that most don't even bother to comment anymore.
As amusing as his inability to spell or write a coherent sentence is, that was never what I objected to. It is his almost condescending manner to push his opinions, based on his mere perceptions and nothing more, as absolute fact. And, as you point out, disrespect other contributors of this forum in the process.
His thread asking for comparisons of B&W 800 D series speakers vs. those that he touts isn't exactly going his way either. He rebutted one of my earlier posts by advising he was going to create it and I should follow it closely.
Well I am Bo, I am. And, I rest my case.
Hi Paul: Exactly right. And we don't need any infighting in an already small community of people. But, it exists, too much in fact. And I would say that there's more Bo's out there, but Bo is certainly one of a kind that's for sure! lol. :D
"Audio is about facts"
-anonymous inexperienced agenda driven vendor
Well, I buy and own what pleases ME.
And that's a fact.
Donjr, totally agree. I had a pair of 602s when I graduated college in 1997-GREAT speakers for rock, house, techno. People loved coming over to my place to listen to my radio.
Great memories, great speakers.
Bo...you should change your nick in a "axegrinder"...it would suit you much better...admit to us all...B&W CEO molested you when you was a kid...while bowers not my favorite speakers definitively not as bad or 2D sounding as you describe them...or some haters on this forum...so please put the bong down and go to sleep...just my 0.02 cents...
I only autioned the new 800 speakers at shows, often this is not the right place to Judge. These demos were not so good. The 800D ( older series) I listend with own stuff. We could compare it with other speakers. Stage comparing we do all the time. When the stage of the 800D would have been bigger I would have bought them. When you have the chanche to compare many stuff all the time you think differently about music and audio. All the good parts you hear in other systems you want it for yourself as well. There was depth, but not the level other speakers could give. Audio is about comparing the outcome of parts you test. When I am talking about a 3 dimensional stage. I talk about playing 4-5 metres behind the sepakers, but also 1.5 till 2 meters beside the speakers. That is the level you compare other speakers with. And you do it with the same stuff all the time.
Compared to B&W 800D's most speakers just look like a box.
I think their form follows function with the 800 series and the Nautilus is exceptional. That said, I would like to reinforce the baffle of these tiny Concept 90 CM1's and upgrade the crossover but need suggestions/directions how.