B&W 802D vs Wilson WATT Puppy

Atmasphere,
yup you're right again :-)
ain't nobody's gonna make me drive my b&Ws with tubes .. :)

krellm7
I think specs usually translate to actual performances...especially when it comes to mating a right amp...
- I'm not a speaker engineer by any means...

and last time I heard the live music? a month ago..:-)

i love classical music, and I've been to say .. 100+ live performances and I think B&W speakers are quite (not 100% of course) faithful when it comes to reproducing the realism I get from the lives :-)

btw... I love your system.. the original matrix 800... AWESOME!
good day, gentlemen

ok... you guys cannot compare the 802D against the grandslams, Nova utopias, or even W/P7s!
they are all much more expensive than the 802Ds!!!
W/P 7 should be compared to the 800D and the rest should be against the *shell* Nautilus (B&W doesn't really have a competition for the grand slamms!)

I just had a lenghty A/B session this weeked comparing the 803Ds and 802Ds
the 803D sounded a little colored in the mid and the bass lacked a little
but No way these were true for the 802D!

I've heard both sophias and the 7s.. they are all great speakers- comes down to the personal choice..
yet the wilson speakers never appealed to me that much.. not only aesthetically but also sonically (I agree with Michael on the "muddiness" of the wilsons -at least the 7 and sophia)

Atmasphere,

1. you are right on B&Ws sounding better w/ SS than tubes- 800N with AR tubes were the worst set up I've ever heard. very sharp observation indeed! :-)

a point to consider, though.
2. WP7's impedence plot shows that it too dips down near 2 ohms- stereophile sept. 2003
and JA also recommends a high current amp.. BUT you're still right that WP sounds better with tubes than the 800s with tubes ;-)

it is general notion that the wilsons are easier to drive.. (true for sophias) but.. could this be a marketing stuff?
the sensitivity and impedence are no where close to say.. JBL S9800 horns, which sounds FNATASTIC with anything....

looking at other measurement there are more resonance in cabinet and in the waterfall plot on the WP than say the old 801N or 800N... not to be a geek or jerk.. but I'm wondering where this superior midrange of WP is coming from?
I'm not trying to start a war or anything.. just MHO :-)

Dgad
though I totally agree with you that the WP7 is an excellent speaker

I recommend you go listen to the new 802D or any of the new lines (802 or up) just for fun
the new bass driver is sooo much better (faster!) and I think the improvement is there from top to bottom.. tell you the truth, the old N800 didn't imipress me that much either but the new 802D was simply Da Bomb!

agree with Krellm7

Trust me, Dgad,
the new ones are totally different *Top to Bottom*
and you're more than welcome to disagree with us after giving them an auditon :-)

one sonic picture worth a thousand threads...

Cics,
it's true that the magnet change was first introduced in the sig 800, but NOT the crossovers
the 1st order xover is the new for the new 800 series

btw, what kind of music do you mostly listen to?

Dgad,
I agree with you that the bass of WP7 is awesome.
it doesn't lack a bit

btw, IMHO, the midrange of the 802D was much better than the 803D's..I don't think you can claim that the midranges of all the 800 series are the same- why would they put the head in the first place...

I'm gonna go do A/B on the 802Ds and the Sophias this weekend -
who knows I'll become an wilson fan after this weekend :-)

Cics,
for me to buy the Alexandria?
not in next 20 years :-)

I gotta have something before then, right ?
yor analogy applies not only to the B&W speakers but also to any lesser speakers than.. say Alexandria or Nova Utopia (i.e. I'm sure I'll desire more bass from the Sophia, according to what you say) To my ears, the bass of the 802D was enough... I don't listen to much rocks at all
btw, did you see the THD/frequency plot of the 800D in their white paper? it doesn't seem high to me...at all :-)

and..I've seen some pple switching from the wilsons to the B&Ws... again, it boils down to the personal choices

my next speaker upgrade will be a long-term temporary settlement- at least 5 yrs- I gotta get new mcintosh or pass amps, too...

anyhoo,
I'm not completely leaving the wilson's out from my future path- my current options are - Sophia, 802D, Aerial 9T, or ML Summit... happy choices :-)

as far as the bass go, the ML summit goes lower than any of these guys! a self-powered woofer for my mama's sake :-)

good day, gentlemen

Cisc,
That'll be very kind of you if you can send me a copy of the review ([email protected])
I understand what you're saying and I do agree with you on the excellence of the wilson's; your choices of the wilson speakers are very well respected. Like I said, the wilsons, especially the bigger ones, are simply astonishing!

however, here is a little catch on juding speakers solely on the measurements:
take the paradigm signature 8 (or even some NHT speakers). it has less THD than both the 800D and the WP7s. Not to mention more flatter response over the entire frequency range.
Does it mean that we should all buy the paradigms and a subwoofer for total $10K and save the other $10K for say... diamonds for wives? :-)
(based on the measurements published by soundstage.com) I'm not a speaker engineer but THD of the WP7 and the 800D seem about the same... :-)

to me, buying hifi equipments are based on 1. science and 2. X-factors (all kinds of stuff...).. of which the latter often prevails..To me, at this high end, arguing one is better than the other is like saying "my wife is better than yours cuz she's got___" (fill in the blank with whatever you wish ;-)

I'm trying not to be judgemental as possible in life and like i said in the other post, I might become an wilson fan as early as next week, too. However, for now I'll stick with what sounds better to my ears which have heard numerous live classical concerts :-)
to me, consumers at this level are not dumb at all.. they cannot fool us with some junks with ridiculous price tags.. I re-empasize, I believe all the speaker companies discussed here make great products!

btw, I envy your system, ML 33s etc. I hope I can afford that kinda goodies when I get a little older :-)
(post some pics of your system that I can drool on !)

good day

here is my update on the battle between the Wilson and B&Ws

I had a very long session comparing the ML summit, Wilson Sophia, and B&W 802D
electronics were MuFi A5s (int.Amp and CDP) some thick transparent single wire speaker cables and it was the same room as the one I heard the 802Ds last time, but different directions (the longer side of the rectangular room)

ML Summit: very transparent clear.. arguably the best on vocals (both classical and jazz) but it sounded so much laid back.. easy on the ears but not so involving..
generally very good bass.. however, I'm not gonna consider this speaker any more..

B&W 802D: sounded much forward compared to the Summit.. maybe a little harsh.. bass didn't really impress me this time.. amp? room placement? it sounded equally good at vocals and instrumentals

Wilson Sophia: ... well I have to admit.. I retract all the comments I've made about the wilsons... it was a revelation... I can see how I and others perceive this speaker as cold, analytical, and not involving...
it is so DARN NEUTRAL and ACCURATE !!!!

it was right in between the logan and BW... superb imagery.. focus, and seamlessness top to bottom.. and the mid sounded acutally clearer than the 802D's!!! (I can't belive I'm saying this...) Bass does not yield at all either.. very firm, tight and deep.. (deeper than the 802D). No muddiness at all! every aspect sounded better than the 802D..... simply..musical!

--one minor point is that the 802D was not biwired-.. I'm a beliver of biwiring..and belive that single wiring to the tweeter side always makes things sound more forward and weaker in the bass.... or is the MuFi A5 not good enough for the 802D?... but sure it was good enough for the Sophia...

I'm going to have at least one more head-to-head comp. between these guys before I make up my mind (with a better amp and biwiring etc..)...I still prefer the aesthetics of the 802D... and the bling bling on the top.. :-)

good day gentlemen

Michael,
your impression is more or less the same as what I felt before... until I had a serious session with the Sophia...

like I said.. there are some things about t the B&Ws that still attract me... and I think the Sophia is butt ugly...
but.. I should have mentioned this on the previous post.:
The darn ugly sophias disappeared on me... (for the first time for any speakers..)

the difference became more obvious when the music was more challenging than say jazz or contemporaries... (i.e. some serious concerto, orchestral pieces)

I might change my mind if I give a few more auditons.. (hopely?!?!)... jeez...I sound like almost desperate for the 802Ds...

btw, whatever I say is true only to my own ears.. :-)
and I don't mean in any way that the ML Summit and the 802Ds are inferior to the Sophia.. I just liked it better in my last visit to the dealer... YMMV..

TGIF...
Jay

goatwuss
Thanks! Good luck with your *Mission: Sophia* as well :-) don't forget to put up your system pics here when you get'em
btw what color are you gonna get?

Kw6
thanks!
allow me to elaborate a little more on the comp. b/w soph and 802D
I should say that my comparison is 99% based on reproducing classical music (orchestral, various concertos, choral, and fat ladies singing etc.)

with Sophia
voice sounds more round and organic/rich
sound stage is more holographic
bass is a little deeper and more well defined (room?)
clarinet and violin sound much more sweeter and realistic
the mid sounds so much realistic... the 802D sounded kind of *shouting in your face* at times like my 703s.. blame the kevelar?? yet the mid of Sophia.. omg...!

and finally to answer your question
to be 100% honest.. I'm becoming skeptical about the diamond tweeter... it sounds more extended and silky compared to the old ones.. but still a little harsh...compared to the Summit and Sophia

sadly, I do not have any experience with or means to give auditons to any of the speakers you listed other than the Wilson duos in my area..(give some steroids and plastic surgery to the Sophia and than it becomes WP7)

Not me, but my dad has heard the Eggleston Andra II (sorry no Rosa) and he actually preferred it over the WP7 and N800 of B&W.. and put it par but different with the JBL K2 S9800 (if you can find this guy here in the states…)

Good Luck!
Jay