Azimuth 2020


How do you set your cart's azimuth in the 21st century?
128x128fuzztone

Showing 10 responses by cleeds

melm
"VTA and azimuth are two completely independent angles." Only with a tangential tonearm, not with a pivoted, offset, one. The effect may be minor, depending on the degree of offset, but it's there.
Your claim can only be accurate if the pickup arm (or turntable) itself is not "true."  That is, the arm cannot be raised or lowered while also remaining absolutely perpendicular to the turntable platter.

Or perhaps, like mijostyn, you don't understand what these angles define.
lewm
I think what can happen, if azimuth is set at any angle different from 90 degrees, is that as you raise or lower the VTA. the contact points of the stylus, depending upon stylus shape, might alter their contact with the groove and certainly the distribution of forces on the groove walls would shift a bit.
This actually makes perfect sense, @lewm,  and it's nice to be able to discuss this with someone who understands what azimuth actually is.
But this effect, like very small changes in VTA, is tiny.
Quite!
If azimuth is set at a perfect 90 degree angle to the groove, none of this would happen.
Exactly. Azimuth should be independent of VTA, unless something else is misaligned or, as I explained previously, not "true."
mijostyn
Peter Lederman is the last person I would take advice from ...
Really? Lederman has a decades-long track record as a designer of speakers, electronics and phono cartridges. He and his team at Soundsmith also provide expert service on audiophile equipment - including tricky things such as Tandberg TD20As - and I’m saying that from firsthand experience. So I’d be inclined to consider his advice, even though I may not always heed it.
The vast majority of us have offset tonearms. Because of the offset as the arm goes up the stylus leans toward the spindle. Azimuth in offset tonearms is elevation sensitive.
Huh? For that to be true, you’d have to have a horrible misalignment between the turntable platter and the pickup arm. If the platter and pickup arm base are both level, azimuth cannot change as you change VTA, even if you want to call that "elevation."

I suppose it’s possible that the pickup arm itself could be defective, such that the arm could not be raised in a perfectly vertical fashion. I’ve never encountered that, though.
mijostyn
Cleeds, Lederman is a business man and obviously his approach has worked on you. Everything he belches is common knowledge ...
I’ve met Lederman several times and never heard him belch. Whether you care for his products or style or not, his accomplishments in audio probably dwarf yours.
As you raise the VTA of an offset tonearm the stylus leans towards the rim of the platter. As you lift the head shell the stylus leans toward the spindle.
Wow, you obviously either have some seriously defective or misaligned gear, or you’re confused about basic geometry. VTA and azimuth are two completely independent angles. Offset is independent of azimuth. Perhaps you are confused as to the definition and measurement of azimuth.
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Insults and invective are bad enough, but when the vitriol rises to the level of doxing and physical threats, I exit the conversation. I care a whole lot more about my family than I do this forum.

There are obviously some angry and frustrated people here. I actually feel sorry for them.
roberttdid
Bit hard to follow the conversation to know if any conclusions were reached ...
That was the deliberate result of the two users who turned this conversation into ugly nonsense. They've since been given a temporary "time out" from the group.
If the pivot angle is perpendicular to the offset portion of the arm, the azimuth will not change as the cartridge is raised and lowered.
Exactly!
For most tone-arms, the pivot angle is perpendicular to the main arm.
You make a fair point and for those arms, azimuth will change slightly as the arm is raised or lowered. I don't know whether that represents "most" pickup arms or not, but it's arguably a design deficiency.
luisma31
I missed something with cleeds, did he was threatened through a PM?
No, I was threatened right here on this thread. The posts were deleted and the two users given a "time out." Pathetic.
looscannon
... it would seem to me cleeds that you might own certain people and apology. I don’t condone hot headed behavior ...
I’m not sure I understand you. Are you suggesting that I apologize to the two users who the moderators independently decided were in repeated violation of the group’s rules and - despite warnings from the moderators - not only continued their violations, but escalated them to the point of threatening my family and me? I’ve been around this forum long enough to know that being temporarily banned from the group is the only way some people understand that the rules apply equally to them as they do everyone else.
... it does seem to me that you have a hard time admitting you are wrong.
When I stated that azimuth is a completely different angle than VTA and that adjusting one doesn’t alter the other, I should have added "in a properly designed, manufactured and installed pickup arm." I’ll be more careful with that next time. Thank you!
I think it would be sporting if you had those people re instituted.
You’re apparently new to this forum so I’ll explain this for you: It’s not for me (or you) to "re-institute" the two violators. Only the moderators can do that. If you feel they were treated unfairly, you might want to contact the moderators and plead your case. Perhaps they’ll share with you the actual content of some of the deleted posts. That way you’ll know what you’re talking about.

Of course - given that @looscannon just joined this forum in the past week - it’s possible that he is actually a sockpuppet for one of the two banned users. No matter. I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt, as a courtesy.
melm
... you are still incorrect if you are talking about a pivoted arm with an offset.
If the pickup arm’s pivot angle is perpendicular to the offset, changing VTA will not alter azimuth. (Disclaimer: that applies only if the arm is properly constructed and installed. If its manufacture or install deviates from "true," then all bets are off.) Why don’t you try it and see for yourself? It’s silly to argue about something that can actually be measured.

You might want to try and find a Wallytractor azimuth tool. You would likely find it quite revealing!! Malewicz understood these things.

This is all pretty basic geometry, folks.
looscannon
It seems there might be a problem with definitions here.
With any offset arm changing the VTA ...
Good point, and it is quite likely that you are correct. I suspected earlier in the thread that some here did not understand some of these definitions (such as VTA, SRA and azimuth) and so of course that's an obstacle to understanding.

I can't help those who don't understand the geometry of pivoted pickup arms. I can only suggest to them that - as a starting point - they listen to someone such as Wally Malewicz (RIP) explain. There is an introductory video here.

Azimuth can be measured, by the way, so it's silly for this dispute to continue.