Prof not disagreeing with you. The advances in electronic room correction are huge.
At Axpona the Paradigm 3F on the Anthem STR showed this beautifully.
The room had 0 acoustical treatments and with the Anthem Room correction the little 3F had ridiculous bass extension and definition in lower frequencies, even the addition of a $6,500.00 sub did little to improve the sound.
When we did the New York Audio show in 2016 with the Persona 9H in a Hotel room that was of similar size we got a tidal wave of clean tight bass which would have been impossible without electronic room correction.
It can also be noted that while it is absolutely true room acoustics are very important in getting the best out of any speaker set up, it’s also been shown via the research from the NRC, Floyd Toole etc that room influences are most important in the bass region. Otherwise, it’s been shown that we are quite good at "hearing through" the acoustic of a room to the character of a speaker. After all, that’s what our hearing system evolved to do, account for varying acoustic environments when trying to recognize sounds. That’s why you still recognize a familiar voice in any number of wildly varying acoustic situations.
I’ve found this to be the case, and especially so if you know what you are doing when auditioning a speaker in unfamiliar environments. Personally I evaluate a speaker from all sorts of angles and seating distances, from nearfield, to far field, to in between, off axis, under axis, you name it. By the time I’m finished I have a very good lock on the general "voice" of that speaker. I can not remember any case where I have actually been surprised by the sound of a speaker I’ve auditioned when I’ve encountered it in another room, or when I have brought it home to my own listening room. The essential characteristics were discernible in a careful evaluation.
Along those lines, and following Toole et all’s work, if a listener can get himself in to a reasonable position, not too far from a pair of speakers at a show, he should be getting enough direct sound to "hear through" the room effects enough to get *some relevant* degree of the speaker’s character.
Of course, truly awful rooms and incompetent speaker placement can make this harder.
Michael your attitude is counter to most of the industry and what most real audiophiles can actually do.
Most people don’t have the luxury of having a room totally devoted to audio in a way that you would espouse.
Most people’s listening room is their Living Room, or spare bedroom, sometimes with a few modifications in terms of room tuning, lucky are the few audiophiles with rooms devoted strictly to their music systems.
We are not disagreeing with you that it is nice to be able to pull off such a room.
We have heard purpose built rooms which were mediocre at best some were over damped, vs some real rooms that sounded excellent. There is a lot you can do with a some carefully placed furniture, rugs, bookcases, and a few room tuning accessories, yours included.
The point of a show is to get a gauge of what products may sound like in a way that product X will intrigue you to move to take the next logical step of wanting to check that product out in a controlled environment, or not, and in that way regional or national shows are a valuable tool. The reality today is that there are large parts of the country where there are no audio dealers or the dealers selection is very sparse or the dealer sells good speakers but doesn't have complimentary electronics.
We are not saying that the room isn’t important it is however, many audiophiles face room constraints that their rooms are too big, too live, too small, and they don’t have the luxury of being able to employ tons of tube traps, or acoustic panels because their wives or girlfriends would object to their Living Rooms looking like recording studios.
So yes you can have a mutually exclusive dedicated music room where you can hide away from the world and listen or you can choose to tweak up a Family Room or Living Room and still get excellent sound in the light of day without excluding others from listening with you.
One of the reasons for the explosion of Sonos is that music everywhere brings the joy of music to a much wider audience.
We are not saying that because we endorse Sonos but higher quality streaming products encourage others to join in on the fun hence we recommend Naim who makes excellent streaming loudspeakers and amplifiers.
Another trend is electronic room correction which we feel will still not obviate the need for room tuning but goes a long way into making shitty rooms sound better without having to employ panels everywhere.
The demo at AXPONA with the Anthem STR integrated and a pair of the Persona 3F was done in an untreated room and the sound quality of this little system was tremendous because of the advantages of room tuning done in the digital domain.
The demo with Legacy at the New York audio show also demonstrated that power of electronic room correction. The system of the Legacy Aeris combined with a $10k Raven integrated amplifier and a $5k Wavelet room correction processor/dac was roughly a $35k-40k package.
This system was pure magic and they had 0 acoustical treatments in a regular sized Hotel Room and the sound was thrilling, a huge soundstage, all frequencies were balanced, the system sounded better than many $100k setups we have heard.
So Michael you should welcome any and all audiophiles into this hobby with the understanding of what works for some doesn’t work for all us included.
An excellent post! I get concerned when folks come away from a trade show as if it was a listening experience of meaning and judgement. I think they're a good thing but for critical evaluation? Not so much.
I'm also concerned with some dealers of late. Posting with one yesterday I asked where their dedicated listening rooms were and they didn't know what I was talking about. A room full of speakers and components is not a dedicated listening room. In playback a dedicated listening room means that room is "dedicated" to that particular system and setup. It was like I was insulting them when I explained they didn't have any dedicated rooms for listening.
Sometimes I wonder if this HEA thing will make it past the next few years. Sure makes one appreciate having a real system in a real setup though, regardless of the spins the industry has created.
as my second audio show in 30 years I did enjoy axpona but I'd probably not go again unless I was specifically wanting to hear a speaker that I was seriously interested in buying and was otherwise unable to audition (i live close so could consider it an audition of sorts). For me personally the unfamiliarity of most music meant I really could not decipher what I was hearing in relation to the systems average signature. Many rooms were playing midrange centered music with good recordings often just vocal and a couple of instruments so with eyes closed I'd have been hard pressed to know if I was listening to a 1.5K shoe box or a couple of 50K giants to be honest, I'm always amazed at how big some small speakers can sound if the music has limited bass.
Although I haven't heard many say it, MBL sounded the best to my ears. Just seemed right across all frequencies with zero harshness. I am sensitive to high frequencies due to tinnitus and I felt no affect. My biggest surprise was when I asked what they were using for power conditioning and the guy doing the demo said "nothing". That had to be some dirty power on Saturday.
I also loved the Avantguard horns, but on one track I noticed the symbols coming from the far edges of the soundstage, both left and right. Bothered me once I noticed it.
Ozzy the big T+A speakers are $75k a pair, I would love to see a speaker built like that for $7,500.00 the other Criterion small aluminium loudspeakers are $15k a pair so maybe they were being listed at $7,500.00 each.
The thing with the Triton 1R is that you are getting a loudspeaker with incredible bass via two built in subwoofers, and a big soundstage for $6k which does make them a wee bit of a bargain.
We are now looking at adding Golden Ear to our staple of floor standing loudspeakers which would then give us in the $4-8k price range: Kef R 11, Dali Rubicon 6, Paradigm Prestige, Quad Z4, PSB T3, Elac Adante, Legacy Signatures.
What do you guys think of that line up are there any other mega value loudspeakers that we would be missing from major manufacturers?
If you’re referring to T+A Solitaire CWT 1000-40 electrostatic hybrid, then yes. They are listed for $73,500. The whole system from T+A demoed in that one room listed at $192,500.
I think some of the differences in opinions on the various speakers sound quality had to do with the music that was playing at the time of the visit. I swear most of the rooms only played subtle, midrangey type music. Nice, but not very taxing on a system.
P.S. I also thought the Triton R1 sounded pretty good.
Question: My notes on the T&A speakers have them listed as about $7500 a pair which I thought was a real bargain and they sounded great! But,... did I miss a zero in the price?
Did anyone have a chance to listen to the new speakers from Raven Audio? Interesting since they are no longer teaming up with Legacy and put out there own speaker. Looks good on paper and pricewise.
I can honestly say that many of us seasoned veterans can walk in a room and know, immediately, if the system has potential, and in what way the room has influenced what we are hearing ( yes, with or without music we are familiar with ). Plus, we all know how significant it is to dial in a pair of speakers to a room, for a sweet spot. Not enough time when setting up for a show. Been there, done that.
Funny how taste is so individual. The Tritons sounded mechanical to me. I heard all the notes, but not in a way I found particularly pleasing. For me, they would be a top choice in a home theater to reproduce movie sonics. They aren't terrible-hell they are good- just not my cup of tea.
@audiotroy
The Golden Ear Triton 1R were in our mind one of the standouts for the money for $6k they sounded totally different then the sound we associated with Golden Ear which tends to be either too bright or too boomy. The soundstage was huge, the bass tight and the top end was balanced. Was it the room the gear the new model?
You're the second I've heard from that said the Triton 1r's were the best at the show for the money. What were the Triton's hooked up to? I've seen them use Primaluna amps at some shows. I'm wondering because I have Triton 2's. When I had them hooked up to a 200wpc solid state amp I wasn't that impressed. I thought they were also too bright or artificial sounding in the highs and boomy in the bass. When I hooked them up to my Primaluna Dialogue integrated they are much more compelling and enjoyable. I'm not saying the Triton 2's or 1r's aren't good speakers. I've just noticed mine sound much better using tube amplification and I wonder if that's what was being used at Axpona.
Manger drive unit with woofer really grooved, great timing and coherence Spendor/Chord beautiful synergy and balance. Alta audiophile delight Loved the outgoing exuberant Wilson Sabrina Kef great "budget" towers in white Klipsch Forte impressed sonically and visually LSA BIG sound Some italion pyramid shaped standmounts BIG sound
Are there any “treatments” that would help these rooms or is it the space limitations that make them hard to make sound good?
Might be a huge way for a company to sell some treatments to have 2 rooms set up with the same dimensions and equipment; one with treatments and one with normal “show” setup.
Jchip, agree with some of your points but disagree with the last.
You are rarely going to hear these products sounding exactly how good they can sound when optimally setup however you can get an idea overall of the flavor of the product.
For example all the Magico's sounded the same which to us is boring, clean, but boring in every room similar sound.
There were a few exceptions which lead us to rethink the sound that we have generally associated with some of these products.
Most rooms using Wilsons at this show sounded very good, still think that you can get better sound for the money with some of the other brands but overall some of the demos were very impressive.
The Golden Ear Triton 1R were in our mind one of the standouts for the money for $6k they sounded totally different then the sound we associated with Golden Ear which tends to be either too bright or too boomy. The soundstage was huge, the bass tight and the top end was balanced. Was it the room the gear the new model?
Have heard the Mura Electrostatics and these are always fantastic.
Another big surprise was the Grande Utopia EM this new version was amazing, especially on the big Naim Statements what a sound.
Vimbergs sounded superb.
New Dali Calistro active speakers were impressive for $5,700.00 speakers, streaming hub and Blue OS just plug in the speakers and you are good to go.
Heard the Elac $1,200.00 monitors they sounded bright did not impress us at all.
The Paradigm 3F with Anthem room correction sounded excellent.
The T+A gear in both room was very good as well.
So the take away was that some of the rooms really did showcase the products well or at least well enough to see if someone would want to take the next step and explore that product either at a dealers or in their home.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ, T+A, Paradigm, Anthem, Dali, Elac, dealers
1) see the latest releases from attending manufacturers 2) pick up on the latest trends in the industry 3) discover previously unheard demo tracks 4) gape at equipment way out of your price range
Reasons not to attend an audio show 1) evaluate the sound of equipment being demonstrated
My picked. Bending wave room, Magico set up with Krell sounded good but mechanical sound, Most balance on towers speakers Gryphon room... monitors Vanalstine room , Devore room wavac combo very musical, very impresss with the new Elac ribbon monitors.
I've not been to an audio show in almost 3 decades so was a bit overwhelmed and only had 3 hours to make sense of things. I decided that I was going to simply see which rooms automatically engaged me with the music played, I imagine the type of music and recording factored heavily. I found myself most engaged in the parasound/buchardt room and the Wharfedale linton room, that was good news considering they are amongst the lowest priced speakers at the show. I also heard the Kii 3 (with the new lower section), maybe it was the recording, everything was solid and tight but I found the experience fatiguing. I feel sometimes I have a reverse placebo effect, the bigger and more elaborate looking the set up the higher the expectation is to be somehow floored, the tiny buchardts by contrast seemed to make a sound that belied what you were in front of. The lintons were playing a heavy electronic track which I enjoyed, they might be coloured and tubby sounding? but at that moment I was really enjoying myself.
-The Audio Note room with the live professional Cellist was the Class Touch of the show. Thank you.
-The Carver Towers were decent but that room guy never stopped his mouth. Carver seemed like the discount Laufer. Somebody needs to be.
-Way too many rooms picked POOR music. Shall I say it again? These people are in the sound business. I am hands up over the situation as my Korean friends used to say.
-Yes Technics missed the boat. The 40.2 Harbeths sounded worse that the 30.2s next door at less than 1/2 the price. Room was way too small. Thanks for closing the door early by the way. People were wanting in. Some bad vibes there.
-Sanders anemic??? Wow you heard something nobody else I spoke with did.
First timer at AXPONA. First off, really enjoyed the venue. Lots of walking, typical elevator waits on Saturday. Friday we had primo access to rooms and sweet spots, plus one-on-one conversations with owners, engineers, and knowledgeable staff. ( and easier possibility of listening our choice of music ... although we should have pre-warned Hungarian designers/engineer, Zoltan Bay from Bayz Audio exactly what would happen when he played our Yello selection ( "Shake & Shiver" ) on their $95,000 "Counterpoint" masterpiece. First of all, it was magnificent + and showed the excellence of his company's work ! Secondly, it cleared the room of most of the "classically inclined" listeners. And "yes" he refused to recognize any of our further requests. ( But if I had the money, I would own these ! )
I disagree with audiotroy on the Carver speakers. I found them quite enjoyable.
The Vandy Wood CT's and Magico's were a disappointment . (Sadly stated )
I was pleased with the Audiovector SR3 Avantgarde Arrete' , the Atohm GT3's , the Triangle Magellan Quatour's, and the Muraudio SP1's .
A standout moment was in the Jeff Rowland room w/ Vivid Audio Kaya 90 's when a gentleman named Myles ( reviewer ? ) pulled an album by Dead Can Dance and wowed everyone in the packed room for a solid 15+ minutes of pure magic.
The B&W300 D3's in the Audioquest room were stunning as were the 802 D3 Prestiges's in a MacIntosh room. ( I own 802D2's )
It was pleasure to meet Yutaka Miura of ATM and Paul McGowan of PS Audio ( My Hero ), but his new AN3's (prototypes), although beautiful didn't wow me the way I expected. Second chance will be given out of respect.
Lastly we unknowingly met Samuel Laufer of Laufer Teknik upon arrival at the hotel and did enjoy his entire set-up ( and they did let us play some Yello on their system to test his mettle. We were not disappointed. )
There was so much more, but I'll cut it short ...
On another note, the JTR Speakers Home Theatre setup was off the chain !!!! 19 mindblowing Channels of " I want this in my house !!" , but I really need to get a bigger house. The JVC laser projection unit was the clearest thing I have seen ever.
I was at AXPONA all three days this year. My favorite room--the Finest Fidelity Room--they spun records on a Steve Dobbins restored Garrard 301, Reed 2P tonearm ($13,500 together), $12,000 van den Hul catridge and a $25,0000 van den Hul phono pre. Accustic Arts pre and mono-amps driving Magico S3 MkII speakers. I have heard these speakers quite a few times and this was the first time they sounded really great to me. The analog rig was the star. When I had the guys in charge play me the same track digitally immediately after hearing it on the analog rig, the magic in the room quickly faded. If you missed this room playing records, then you missed a treat. The four rooms that surprised me: (1) The MSB room--underwhelming. An $85K DAC that did not impress. I stopped by twice to make sure I was hearing it correctly;
Astewart=agreed that the FF room with Dobbins 301 was great. Having A.J. Van den Hull sitting there in the room meditatively helped. And I could not agree more-this room made the Magico's sound good. On the other hand, the CH Precision room with Magico's was unbearable-etched, screechy, off in just about every way. I agree too that the MSB room was disappointing. I thought the equally expensive MBL room was also disappointing. My favorite room all said and done was the Audio Note room. But admittedly it is due to my taste/preference for natural tone/timbre. I think it is no huge surprise AN sounds good at shows-the speakers and associated gear suit the small rooms and corner placement suits the need to tame bass that cripples to some extent most of the other larger speakers placed in small rooms. Vincent Belanger was fantastic to listen to both playing cello and describing what AN strives for. The Vivid Audio room with Jeff Rowland sounded awfully good to me. Call me a homer (I own Devore O/93's) but I really liked the room with DeVore O/93's being driven by Leben gear and I was also equally impressed by the room with DeVore O/96's being driven by Wavac. And lastly, I loved loved loved the room with Dynaudio Confidence 20 standmounts with two subs, one behind each speaker stand. With a lot of the big names, I heard an awful lot of what I call "hi-fi" sound. Ultra-detailed and revealing but not quite relaxing and easy-flowing. And at the other extreme, with the lower priced gear I heard a lot of for lack of a better word is "mechanical"; sound that covers the range of frequencies but again, is not natural to my ears.
Most satisfying: the Acora Acoustics room with their $28k granite speakers playing the analog remaster of Gary Karr 1981 Albinoni Adagio in G minor was wonderful.
I was at AXPONA all three days this year. My favorite room--the Finest Fidelity Room--they spun records on a Steve Dobbins restored Garrard 301, Reed 2P tonearm ($13,500 together), $12,000 van den Hul catridge and a $25,0000 van den Hul phono pre. Accustic Arts pre and mono-amps driving Magico S3 MkII speakers. I have heard these speakers quite a few times and this was the first time they sounded really great to me. The analog rig was the star. When I had the guys in charge play me the same track digitally immediately after hearing it on the analog rig, the magic in the room quickly faded. If you missed this room playing records, then you missed a treat. The four rooms that surprised me: (1) The MSB room--underwhelming. An $85K DAC that did not impress. I stopped by twice to make sure I was hearing it correctly; (2) The ELAC room with the small monitors--a huge value proposition IMO. This room showed you don't need an armor truck or gigantic room to get quality sound--oh, the tracks Peter played while I was in the room were great--I will be buying both those CDs; (3) The Laufer Teknik room--Kind of weird and wonderful. "The Note" speakers in the room were very tall and very thin but produced more quality sound than I imagined possible when I walked into the room (with the substantial help of a large subwoofer). The 64/16 Memory Player with the built in DAC was impressive; and finally (4) The Technics room--Every time I walked in these guys were playing digital files while the Technics SL-1000-R loaded (with an Ortofon MC Winfeld Ti cartridge) sat idly by. I found that strange. I got them to play it; and it sounded pretty good with the Harbeth speakers in a ridiculously small room. If I just launched a new product that had a bunch of buzz, I would have been showcasing that product in a bigger room. Seemed like a missed opportunity to me.
I was disappointed with the Sanders room. Sounded anemic to me. The Carvers room was just ok but Frank the room presenter talked Wayyyy too much! The Gryphon room demo was ok, but we were listening to about $1M worth of equipment! So for that amount money I was not impressed.
I DID NOT like the choice of music in most of the rooms. It was music to fall asleep to with mostly midrange recordings. Most of the recordings I never heard nor ever care to hear them again. Only 3 exhibits would play some of my HR music files that I brought on a usb. I wanted to hear how the speakers/system handled dynamic rock music! Playing only preplanned canned music makes me wonder are they hiding something? How would these systems perform at my home with my choice of music?
1. What I did like was the GT Audio works GTA 3R speakers. They had some great dynamics and they even domo’ed playing them with some Led Zeppelin!
2. I also liked the Fonica Flag L Isodynamic System these are some very thin planer speakers and were quite impressive.
3. T&A Solitaire Anniversary edition electrostatic speakers sounded very good! I would like to here these more.
Honorable mention to the Laufer Teknik "The Note" speakers. Sounded pretty good , but I have to wonder where the $40,000 cost comes from?
P.S. The bathroom availability on floors 4-16 was non existent. Probably a health code violation. And the parking situation was terrible!
The best three: 1. Ultra Fidelis with the Vandersteen 4CT. They just got it right, dialed the system in to the room. 2. Vinnie Rossi 3. VTL/Stenheim/Nordost
I've never been to Axpona but I'm going to try and go next year. Besides listening rooms, what other exhibits to they have? Can you buy vinyl, supplies etc? The classes sound fun---this would a great way to get more young people interested in the hobby. There should be a Audiophile 101 class for beginners. I hope everyone has a safe trip home
Classes would be better as 1/2 hour max. Better topics would help. Restrooms on 3-16 inadequate. The Show Seems well attended. Anyone see: -Laufer Teknik’s "The Note" line array speaker at $38k -Bayz Audio Tube Speaker at $99k -Gryphon played at 92db average. My ears were shot after that. -ATC 50’s were amazingly defining. Perhaps to bright on the top though. -PS Audio- Forget Arnie's Legacy. The prototype was awful-Sorry Paul! Consider room correction. Paradigm Persona used it and their speakers sounded excellent. Anthem unit he said. Seems to me ALL the rooms need one.
I hit a few seminars on saturday. Turntable setup: was good pretty basic stuff. Critical listining: ehhh. Not too good. Lots of people getting up and leaving during the presentation. Future of hi-fi resolution: good. Interesting. Informative.
Axpona has been fantastic this year. The app is very helpful but could use at least one additional feature. It would be great to sort bookmarked exhibitors by floor. There were so many great sounding rooms. However, I am not on the lookout for great sounding rooms this year, though I have heard lots. I am looking to network with the companies whose equipment/cables I own and may want to own. In particular, on my to do list was to get a pair of MrSpeakers at meeting pricing (done), and shop for a Roon core alternative to the Nucleus/+ or the Nucleus/+ itself. I checked out Innuos and Wolf so far. Great meeting and the best tips were here just before the meeting. Start at the 16th floor and work your way down via the stairs. Also make a list of the vendors you want to see. Fremer’s turntable demo was good too. Great meeting. Enjoy!
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