For me it was most certainly worth it. Have you had the chance for yourself to compare the two in the same room and system?
I can tell you that the Eidolon Diamond is a better speaker in every area of performance. Only you can say if it is worth the extra $$$ "for you".
Thanks Tom. I was hoping to get a pair of Isis one day but they never show up used on Audiogon. : (
I could never afford the Isis new from a dealer. I have not heard the Diamond anywhere period but they are within my reach new from a dealer. What amp do you use w/ your speakers?
If you don't mind, I have a question for your regarding the differences between the regular Eidolon and the Diamond version. (Nick, I hope you don't mind my slightly hi-jacking your thread!)
The specifications for the regular Eidolon, (I assume it is the same as the new Eidolon Vision), state it goes down to 26 hz. (I'll be honest and state I really thought it only went down to about 30 hz, based upon listening to it). The specifications for the Diamond version states it goes down to 24 hz.
Question: Can you really tell the difference between the two as far as their bass response is concerned?
I ask, because the bass response on the regular version, while very good, was not great. (And it took a powerful amp (200+ wpc) to get to that level.) If the Diamond really does go down to 24, that would probably be sufficient for my needs.
I am looking for a more full range speaker than my Revel Studios, and the regular Eidolon had about the same bass response as my Studio.) The mid-range and the soundstaging/imaging on the Eidolons was always pretty spectacular (IMHO), so if the Diamonds can just give me that last bit of bass response, I would be interested in them.
Thanks for the help!
and don't forget Kurt: To listen with ROCK and ROLL.......
Kurt - you will not get the bass slam you are looking for from the Diamonds. There is not much of a difference in bass slam between Eidolon Vision and Diamond. If you want more bass slam get the Wilsons or ... the Isis.
I am an Avalon lover,and owner.Yet,once Avalon switched their philosophy from "sealed" enclosures to a ported design,I became very suspicious!
Yes,I know it was under new ownership,but c'mon,the attitudes,especially those expressed in the "superlative" owners manual(which is a superb "read") about the significant advantages of a sealed enclosure,really got me thinking(something I don't like to do-:).
So,I gave the original Eidolon a good audition,and stayed with my "way underrated" Ascent Mk-II.I'm really glad I did,because(though some might feel otherwise....I certainly don't)the Eidolon was simply a sidegrade,to me....At best!!
I felt it definitely had more WAF,but the Ascent is an absolute textbook design,and "way overbuilt",not unlike the stuff Magico is doing today!
Six inch thick front,sealed design,external crossover,88 db sensitivity,easy 6 ohm load,and "the" sophisticated damping circuit in crossover,allowing each driver to basically see their own amp,from just "one"!....Not to mention it still has an amazing level of inner detail and air!...I've been really open minded about replacing it,but I no longer am susceptible to industry hype....As long as my ears tell me otherwise.Btw,they are simply gorgeous too!!
Charles Hansen(I think we know his credentials,by now)really went for it,in this speaker...so...
What I did was to employ a REL Stentor sub,to reinforce the "lowest" octave,as in my room I have the speaker out about seven feet.They replaced a big four tower Infinity design,so the "absolute bottom octave" does benefit here.
I admit I've been fascinated with the "labeling" of the Eidolon "Diamond",and I am sure it IS superb,but I have not heard it,and am not going to drive fifty miles for an audition.I can't believe(I do hope I am wrong)it is SO much better than the very good Eidolon!
Just my two cents...and personal taste!Nothing more!!
Sirspeedy what is your system?
I've seen many great post from you but I don't know what components you have.
Sir Speedy's advice is good. Sealed boxes are usually better in bass transient response ( less bass but generally tighter and more accurate ).
If all you are missing is that last bit of bass response then why not get a sealed sub like a JL F113...
Please don't misinterpret my comments(just opinion).If you feel the "Diamond" is what you "want/like" then I am sure you will be very happy!
My system consistes of "modded" Avalon Ascent Mk II's,Rel Stentor sub....HIGHLY MODDED Audio Research SP-15(Great Northern Sound now has it again for a second time,for V-Teflon cap additions)....Three very low noise Siemens CCa 6922's in phonostage of pre....A "custom" Jeff Rowland two chassis 8t amp(Jeff was nice enough to give me a his latest thoughts on how the latest technology aids this amp,in the new seperate power supply chassis).
A Sota Cosmos series IV table/Graham Phantom arm/Transfiguration Orpheus cartridge....Cd player is a Levinson 390s....Most importantly(surprisingly)an Exact Power EP-15a line regenerator,with an additional Exact Power Ultrapure connected for "balanced" regenerated power....All in a dedicated purpose built room,and a nice LP/cd collection....Thirty five years worth of collecting music seriously....but too much angst lately,as the system has gotten quite complex,and I am getting tired of "voicing" it,to the latest gizmo....It's nice to just play music!
Cables from Transparent,Cardas tri wired speaker cables,Electraglide.
Power cords from PS Audio(for power conditioners)and Harmonic Technology. VPI record cleaner/DIY LP flattener/Furitech CD demag unit.
All in all I am very pleased with how it sounds to "me",and it is NOT the best system around,but I like it alot....Oh yeah,I've been having gremlins for a few months,but the fix is on the way.
Sorry to seem a bit ego here,but someone did ask about the set up,something I don't mention alot....I have friends with better stuff...particularly the amazing set up of Sid Marks,who defies science/physics with his sound,it is SO good!!AND half of his system is NOT the latest stuff,but absolutely DOES MUSIC!!
I have owned Avalon Eidolon, Eidolon Vision & currently the Avalon Diamonds. There are signifcant differences. Is it worth the extra scratch?? To me it was!! It is more relaxed has more resolution and a bit better bass. Most people will not be able to tell the difference in bass response, but the Diamond does have a bit better bass. I will continue to listen to mine until I can afford the ISIS!!
Nickt.... you can flog me for jumping on this thread...and I am truly sorry. But I have owned a pair of Avalon Eclipse's ( sealed enclosure ) for over 7 years and I still enjoy them. As Sirspeedy stated, something can be said about the sealed enclosure designed by Charles Hanson. Please don't shoot me here....but would a good sub be a nice match for the Avalon Eclipses's ????? As they say ; ''mo bass, mo problems ''
I'm using BAT 150se mono-blocks and the BAT REX preamp. I prefer the virtues of good tubes over good solid-state. My front end is digital only at this time which consist of the EMM DAC-6se and the EMM CDSDse. Cabling both interconnects and speaker is Nordost Valhalla. Power cords for the most part are also Valhalla. Equipment rack is the Finite Elemente MR. and Zoethecus (for now) amp stands.
The funny thing about going from the Eidolon to the Eidolon Diamond for me was what I heard at the very first was not the diamond tweeter but the bass. The tweeter is very unassuming and is in no way attention grabbing.
I can remember when I first hooked the Diamonds up in my room and started the long break in process, within the first few bars of the tune I had put on and at a background listening level the quality of the bass was instantly noticeably to me. It was just so much more informative. I was playing a recording with an acoustic upright and I could hear so much more clearly the player's touch, the attack of the fingers hitting the strings, the texture and tone of the bass, the size of the instrument. This extra resolution of detail in the lower registers also contributed greatly to revealing the sense of hearing the size and space of the recording venue.
Yes, the two extra Hz that the Diamond has over the standard Eidolon can be heard on certain recordings, mostly just in the way of weight. But it is the quality of bass with the Diamond that really counts. Going to the Diamond revealed that the standard Eidolon had a little extra energy and warmth in the mid bass that added a little punch. This coloration actually was obscuring information in the upper bass and lower mid-range.
It is my opinion that bass is the most inaccurate colored aspect of music reproducing playback systems. From my experiences the bass is always a crap-shoot. That is, you can take the same entire identical system, set it up in 10 different rooms, and you'll get 10 different takes on what that system's bass sounds like, and it is the bass that will sound the most different from room to room.
Sirspeedy and Shardone make valid points regarding sealed vs. ported designs. They have their pluses and minuses, and you have to decide which trade-offs you're willing to live with, because they exist even at these lofty prices.
For me the Eidolon Diamond in my room does a great job of giving a balanced picture of the musical event, more so then any other speaker I've heard. I feel extremely fortunate to own them and that I'm able to enjoy listening to my favorite music and musicians being reproduced by them.
"Mo bass,mo problems"(btw,my friend had the very fine Eclipse)...Well,from my experience with the REL Stentor/Avalon Ascent MK-II......Your assumption has merit!!....The Ascent is a rediculously sensitive speaker(a good thing in the long run).I have had it sounding about twenty different ways!!Literally!!....
I'm willing to bet(a penny-:)that those who sold it,"never" heard what it could do!...Especially with today's better componentry!!
Each time I thought the speaker was doing something,it turned out that it was some other parameter.....This has happened,like a zillion times!
Finally,I must conclude that this design is absolutely an electron micrscope on "whatever" is before it.So,when the speaker was originally introduced,some felt(including me)that it lacked the lowest freq(even though it got rave press)......It DID,but as time has told me,ONLY a TINY amount of low freq is absent....Time and technology allowed for some interesting sub bass systems to be considered.
I felt the speaker was underperforming(even though it sounded great) because as the other components got "that" much better,surprisingly, the speaker knew it too!!...Always!!...Time and time again!...An amazing design(460 lbs with crossovers...whew!).Serious!!-:)
Ok,but since I wanted to take advantage of the amazing stage proportions this design had(it smoked my big Infinity's...both the RS-1,and the Infinity Beta.... four tower designs),I moved it 7.5 feet out into the room,and boy this speaker "liked" that!!But,you are going to lose a bit of impact,especially with a sealed design in this scenario.
I waited a long time to "do" a sub,not wanting to screw things up.Very easy with any sub,because "everyone" gets hooked on "lots of bass" at first!!But I got it to blend seamlessly,after lots of careful consideration,and am thrilled!!
So,to answer the Eclipse question,....you can get deeper bass,with more weight/impact...But basically it depends on how you have the Eclipse set up.What you want in bass.I like just a hint of added weight/depth.I only use about 1 click stop of volume,on my sub.That's only 10 % of the gain available,but since the basic Ascent has proven itself after almost "any" change in set up variables(it's that sensitive,even at incredibly low volume levels in resolution),I realize the sub question means getting the sub set in an almost "exact ideal" room position,or else doom!...Tread carefully,but it can be done!
Btw,sorry to go on so much,though we are all basically talking "Avalon" products.
I would LOVE to hear the "Diamond" someday,and think it most likely a magnificent product,especially when one sees so much very expensive foreign competition.Not likely to better the "Diamonds" by much.Just an opinion.
I agree whole heartedly with what Trcnetmsncom has stated. The Diamond tweeter is indeed unassuming and yet it resolves high frequency information in a way that you will almost forget that you are listening to a transducer. When I initially purchased my Diamonds it was the absence of so much grunge, noise, and distortion from the tweeter that first made an impression on me.
When people say that an audio component draws you in they are indeed referring to the quality of sound like what you will hear from the Eidolon Diamond.
As well, agree with the statement that there is even more low frequency extension and tonal information from the Eidolon Diamond. I have bass player friends who have commented on the fact that if they need to truly hear what a recorded bassist is actually playing they'll need to hear it through these loudspeakers. The Eton woofer is exceptional at allowing you to hear tonal differences not just within simple notes but even manufacturers' of bass instruments.
The Diamond represents a very interesting combination of music playback that is presented in a somewhat laid back fashion while maintaining tremendous detail without spotlighting a specific portion of the frequency spectrum. In a properly set up system, your Diamonds will yield music in a way that you almost have to re-learn how to get used to listening as its presentation is so different than so many other Audiophile loudspeakers. Until the mighty Isis came along, the Eidolon Diamond was (and still is) a transducer that almost lets you forget that you are listening to a loudspeaker when the source material allows for it.
Now that the new Time has been released, you may be able to pick up an Eidolon Diamond for a good price as some will undoubtedly upgrade.
The diamond tweeter is absolutely sublime. When properly implemented in a speaker design, and optimized with the proper components, there is no going back. Maybe a touch unassuming at first, it is natural without drawing undue attention to itself. This is a component to be enjoyed over the long haul.
Well, if the Time and, particularly, the Isis are anything to go by, the diamond tweeter is fantastic and the performance of the upper echelon Avalon speakers is beyond reproach.
I have had avatars myself and i like avalon speakers in general ,i ve heard the eidolon and the diamond version at shows /dealers a couple of times ,nice speakers.
I design ( have them build) speakers myself and i ve listened for many years to a ceramic tweeter , since the last 10 months to a diamond one though ,in my own designs .
These things are formidable ,they can be silky sweet with voices /strings and have at the same time incredible "snap" when a plectrum hits a string , they dont hold back, "a ping is a ping" with an immense feeling of power/rightness behind them.
further very natural/clear and the level of detail exposed risses significantly ,to a maximum who knows ?
They can create a forcefull immensly dynamic sound while staying totally under control, a drumskin is a drumskin as it also has impact on lower frequencies
there is no going back in my opinion , once you have had them in your system youre hooked i reckon .
Well, since I noticed that there was a flurry of responses to this thread, I thought I would update my situation, and offer a quick review of the latest Avalon speaker that I had the opportunity to hear.
First off, I ended up buying the Eggleston Andra II speakers. These are a sealed enclosure design, with twin mounted isobaric 12" woofers, that sound incredible. (They are very transparent, like the Eidolons, but with more bass punch.) They also have the Dynaudio Isotar tweeter, which I like very much, as it seems very refined. (Much more refined that the metallic tweeters from my old Revel Studios.) I am very happy with them.
Second, I have heard the Avalon Isis speakers at a friend's house. Wow! Not much else needs to be said actually, as they were that good.
Now, to be honest, the room needed to have some (more) sonic treatments, (as it was a bit small for these magnificient speakers), so the sound was not absolutely perfect, but one could easily tell that these are speakers are about as close to perfect as one can get, (at least in a dynamic speaker design). They have a very refined treble response, the mid-range is very transparent, and the bass response is deep, quick and powerful. (The only caveat I had about them is that the soundstage is much taller than I am used to. But I think that is merely because of the limitations of the speakers that I am used to.)
I have the Avalon Time Speaker here and it makes the best of all Avalon Speakers having Diamond option., for it is also the part and tweeter utilized all the way up to highest-end and/or the highest Avalon Model price wise. I use 200 tube monoblocks and Cardas True Beyond Speaker Cable. The tweeters are an awesome component.
Kurt, Avalon specifies "26Hz to 34kHz (+/- 1.5 dB, anechoic)." I forget which is lower anechoic or in room. My Eidolons measured 32Hz just a hair below 0dB at the listening position using Velodyne Manual Room Optimization in my room with the spikes on metal wood floor protectors. I use the room in thirds as location for placement and listening position.
I use two irregularly positioned Velodyne DD-12 Plus subwoofers with the first two EQ presets set flat with one in and one out of phase. The remaining presets are slightly altered and the last is set for radical Rap bass. With all this flexibility at the push of a button I mute the subs for quite a few LPs that simply sound right without the subs yet almost never for digital playback.
I recall hearing a pair of Andra's being driven by a VTL S80? and a VTL pre. in a store in Palo Alto on the El Camino long ago. Wow! You did good.