Who cares what someone else says. You would be nuts to buy speakers that expensive without listening to both of them first. Maybe you won't like either one.
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I have respect for some of the Avalon offerings, much more than for most audio companies. But the Eidolon Diamonds compared to the Revel in terms of musicality? What can your contact be talking about?
If by musicality we mean ease of listening, richness of real instruments, tonal ease, then he is giving you real bad advice. The Avalons have more detail, but I should call that "apparent detail"....so much richness is stripped away that this alone would make any speaker more detailed.
If you want a magnifying glass that will amplify every little detail and wart, and if you don't have ears that are sensitive to brightness range highlighting, you may want to consider them. If you find that many high end speakers are too tweeter-prominent, be careful.
The Revels, meanwhile, are pretty much right down the center. Not artifically thick, not thin, nicely detailed but nicely natural too.
@ ptss, Why would you consider these speakers at all?, In the other thread I thought we concluded that the JBL DD Everest 67000 was way superior!, Kiddmann, That I believe is an expert,would most likly agree that the Everest 67000 is more musical than both speakers that are under conversation here!, cheers!
I did not realize this is the same poster.....
Audiolabyrinth, thanks for the confidence....remember nobody's perfect in their opinions though! Hey...I bet that is the first time someone has said that about himself on this forum! That is why they drive me crazy sometimes.
Anyway, an advantage of Revel could be in a small room, or if someone has a very high power solid state amp that might not sound as good at 1/4 watt (Everest) as at many watts (Revel). I figure someone with Everests would find the right amp though, at that price territory.
Sonically, it is hard to figure an advantage to Revels over JBL. Great as the Revels are, Everest is a speaker of over 3x cost by the same organization.
Hello Ptss. What is musically rewarding is subjective and will be different from person to person.
The Revels will play louder without strain and do have a fuller bottom end. If this is important to you, have a very large room, and if the the majority of the music you enjoy would benefit from these attributes you may very well find this speaker to more musically rewarding.
The Eidolon Diamond with the right associated equipment and set up properly can sonically disappear in a room in a way the Salon simply can't. For me at times they can sound scary scary real! They're more coherent, nuanced, and yes, resolving of 'real' instrumental detail. After living with these speakers for as long as I have, I now find most other speakers to sound disjointed.
I have a pair of Eidolons and haven't been interested in new speakers for years. On the other hand Jeff Rowland Design Group uses the Revels.
I never really heard the Eidolons potential until I got them home and the whole family realized their attributes. While non audio enlightened visitors question their location in the room they usually find their looks very interesting.
What kind of electronics do you guys use with your Avalons? The reason I ask is that the founder/designer of Ayre used to be with Avalon. Right now I use Ayre myself and like it very much. I can't help but think that they would be an excellent match. I may try a pair of Avalon's sometime in the future. I was just trying to get some ideas.
I listened to the original Edilons back in the mid-90s, those were one of the best speakers I have had the pleasure to hear!, very Dimensional to say the least!, They were in a big Room!, The spectral equipment to me soundes lean with the Bass!, so, I went down stairs and got a Krell fpb 600!, Man-o-man!, that sounded alot better to me!, LOL!, As a matter of fact, I took the mit cables off as well!, replaced by Taralabs, this sounded to me, Awsome!, The funny thing thou is I blew one of the mid-range drivers in the Avalon edilon speakers!, they seem like they cannot take much power!, However, They sounded wonderful!, Happy listening!
@ ptss, Thats funny!, you made my day!,My JBLs take on my Krell 700cx! they will not take all the power!, but what they do take is loud enough to think you are at a concert,LOL!, 450 watts continous!, 600 watts a channel, no problem!, 6ohms= 1,050 watts a channel!, is what I have here!so a little past half volume and the speakers can't handle no more!, LOL!,,, cheers!
I sold Avalon for about 6 years. I listend a lot to them. The things I personal do not like is that classical music sound a lot different in real. ( in my opinion) Even with tubes I still do not like the sound. The thing I dislike most is that instruments and voices are less sharp focussed and touchable as in real. It can give a wide and deep stage, but within the stage you never get a touchable 3d image I would want. Instruments are often too big in proportion with Avalon speakers.
Yesss, including there own spikes. Every brand has his own properties/talents. This is how I work, I think and work in tools. First I Always want to know the properties/ talents of a tool. ( speaker, amp, source, cable etc) Also at shows and at other distributers it never convinced me. The sound and individual focus I never found good enough. Because within the wide and deep stage the focus is not that sharp. In real it is smaller and superior in how touchable a voice or instrument sounds. I never liked the sound of classical music played on Avalon speakers either. Sound of a violin in real is so much more emotional and warm. As it is a lot more direct and touchable.
Sorry, just cannot disagree more with Bo1972's assessment of the image specificity and timbral accuracy of the Avalon Acoustic Eidolon, Eidolon Diamond or Isis speakers.
This ability in the Eidolon, for listening to classical music, is what drew me to these speakers, and keeps me with them. The same with the timbral accuracy in reproducing acoustic classical instruments. My primary listening is classical (both large scale orchestral and small ensemble chamber) and acoustic jazz.
I've lived with the Eidolon for over 10 years, with tube electronics (Atma-Sphere amps and Aesthetix phono), and I have been hard pressed to find another speaker as tonally accurate or as specific in its soundstaging and imaging.
My experiences with Avalon's...Ascent, Eidelon, Diamonds and Transcendent, are much more in line with Rushton. The set-up has been crucial. Subsequent to owning the Diamonds I heard a pair at an audio shop. Due to, what I believe was inadequate amplification and insufficient break-in, the Diamonds were outperformed by a pair of Arcus sharing the same electronics and space. The demo left me uninvolved, whereas, had I not already owned them, they would not have been up for consideration. I have heard these speakers offer a variety of audio characteristics from detail and pin-point imaging to a muddled, overly soft presentation; an anemic bass to a deep growling bottom end; huge exaggerated imaging to realistic venue depiction.
Experiences, such as these, have emphasized the need for less judgement of any individual audio product, especially at shows. Fine-tuning through ancillary equipment, tweaks and room placement often eke out more of any components potential.
I have a friend ( client) who has still Avalon speakers. After many different parts in his set he has the best 3d and touchable image I ever heard from a Avalon speaker. I heard a lot of Avalon speakers and demo's. But...my image at home is superior in 3d and also more palpable. This level I never heard from any Avalon speaker in my life. Last month I was with my set at a big audio show, Many shopowners told me that they never heard such a tochable image in there life.
Following on Siddh's comments above, I've found that the Avalon speakers are exceedingly revealing of everything in the audio chain ahead of them. Yes, how they are positioned in the room is important, but more important is to recognize that they will reveal everything about the audio system in which they are placed. Assuming the power driving them is appropriate, you will clearly hear every change, every difference, in the components earlier in the chain.
A big mistake with Avalon's is to assume you can drop them into a system and will then hear a nice positive sonic improvement by their presence. The system IS improved, but because they are so revealing of what else is in the system, what may previously have been masked will now be laid exposed.
@ Bo1972, what do you have for speakers?, I believe the JBL everest DD 67000 speakers are to me one of the best available!, Do not get these speakers confused with the 66000 speakers!, The 67000 speakers are very new to the market and are a huge up-grade over its predessor!, The JBL DD everest 67000 speakers retail for a whoping $75,000 a pair!, needlees to say, A bargain against much more exspensive speakers that do not perform to these JBL capabilitys!, cheers!
The limitation of the Avalon is the respons of the low freq units. I use Monitor Audio Pl-200 with a PLW-15 sub.Respons in the low freq. are faster. This gives you a lot more layers in the low freq compared to Avalon. We also did a comparison with a 2002 Avalon Eclipse ( last version) with the Pl-200. In every way it was superior. The ribon tweeter gives more air and info compared to the Diamond tweeter. Instruments and voices are so much more papable and focussed at the Pl-200 compared to Avalon. I play 4-5 metres behind my speakers. And about 1 metre beside the speakers as well. But within the stage the individual focus is a lot more toucable and 3d compared to any Avalon I ever heard. Last month I was witht my set at a big audio show in Holland. Many called my set the absolute sound of the show. The owner and boss of a big audio magazine called us tot let know we had the best sound as well. On monday I spoke a lot of audio shopkeepers. Many never heard a 3d image what was this palpable and playing as real in front of them. This is 15 years of hundreds of tests I did in audio.
The material Monitor Audio uses is lighter. And they also use a bigger magnet compared to Avalon. What Monitor Audio and Avalon have in common s that they both have a wide and deep stage. But the individual focus of instruments and voices inside this stage are a lot sharper focussed, more 3d and touchable at Monitor Audio Platinum. Monitor Audio uses pure zulver cable inside of the speakers. Avalon uses simple copper cables. Also in the more expensive speakers. A few years ago I met a person who owned the Avalon Diamond speakers. He modifies everything. He opend the Diamond speakers inside. He said also that it is cheap copper. And the quality of there filters is quite simple. Avalon tries to close there speakers so it is difficult to open them.
Yes, the ceramic Avalons can disappear and image really well. But, tonally, they are thin through the mids right on up to the highs. I am involved with many, many concerts listening directly to unmiked horns, drums, piano, strings. Sorry, they don't sound that thin in real life.
This is the type of speaker I call an "audiophile speaker", and they do those audiophile checklist things: image, disappear, depth, detail, image, detail, bass, detail, top end extension, detail........but the sound of real instruments take a bit of a back seat, yielding a lot of detail, which making a speaker a bit thin-sounding enhances.
Float things in space, give lots of detail, that floats audiophiles' boats. Did I mention the detail?
I have had a pair of Avalon Eidolon Diamonds for the last 6 years and agree with Siddh & Rushton's assessment. The Avalon speakers are very revealing and need top flight electronics upstream. In my system they are wonderfully coherent, have the widest and deepest sound stage of any speaker that I have ever heard. They are nuanced and project with spot on timbre and accuracy IMHO. Their only flaw is they do not play at rock concert level's and do not play as deep as other speakers. But they Capture the Soul and emotion of music which is why I cannot find another speaker to replace mine with!!
The Revel is maybe not the best looking speaker, but they make good speakers. At the end it is a lot different comp[ared to Avalon. A speaker is also a matter of taste. Nice that there are so many flavours. Many Avalon owners use MIT cables. I recently sold a Audioquest Oak. We were stunned by the difference in quality. Audioquest is superior in every aspect you Judge a cable for. Mid's are a lot more open, musical and touchable. Audioquest have the best blacks in this price tag in cables these days. Many people follow what is said. I would suggest open your eyes ( ears) and compare. MIT gives a wide and deep stage just like Avalon. But you need a sharper and more natural and real focus. MIT never will give you this. When I compare a Audioquest loudspeaker cable you understand what the MIT is missing.
The Salon 2 camp is busy listening to MUSIC, not dissecting the sound of speakers, or the SOUND coming out of the speakers, which is what the Eidolon Diamonds are good at. The Salon 2 reminds you of music, not hi-fi. The Avalons are one of the several examples of speakers using the Accuton drivers that sound thin and resonant to many listeners. I never thought they could sound natural until I heard the Estalon. That's an example of a speaker using Accuton but with the naturalness that the Eidolon Diamond miss.
I own none of the speakers in my post so I have no built-in prejudice.
The Revels give you music. The Eidolon, sound. Big difference.
I owned the B&W 800 Signature in the past. Classical music was so much more natural than Avalon speakers. But B&W is very poor in cross overfilters. There is almost no depth, so I sold them. I still don't like the sound of Avalon. But this is a matter of personal taste. The thing I disslike most is the average touchable 3d image with very sharp individual focus of instruments and voices. Wenn you compare a Monitor Audio Platinum speaker with Avalon you know how big this difference is. And you can not go back to the average focus of instruments and voices anymore. A friend of mine had a concertroom with a Steinwaywing. A room for about 65 people. Here I learded how direct and small a voice or instrument sounds in real. I call this intimacy. When I hear Avalon speakers you are aware how much less focussed instruments and voices are and the lack of this intimacy in sound. I could not life with this with the differences in real in mind.
Commenting on Audiogon threads have, more often, become a pissing contest, or possibly a venue for those with an agenda. I would like to iterate the responsibility of commentators making overall assessments upon any one piece of equipment. I have heard Wilson speakers sound amusical within certain systems and absolutely magical in another. This has held true with several other assembled systems.
Genesis, Vandersteen's, Proac's, Tidals, YG's MBL's, Aerial's, Spendor's, Green Mountain, Venture's... with each the experience has offered a distinct presentation. Associated equipment, including cabling and isolation, typically varied; and, of course the space and room differed.
These contestable fusses about what sounds more real...Magico or Rockport...or fill in the mfg. is too often foundationless. It is in line with judging the quality of a live performance by the sound quality of the room. I usher a number of shows each year, with the opportunity to roam the theater. As vantage points change, so does the sound quality. Often, the sound is unacceptable. Denouncing the performers, I believe is poorly directed.
My objective in responding to Bo1972 is in defense of a speaker, I know from experience, is capable of impressing both audiophiles and music lovers. I also believe this to be true of most high and mid end systems...if the effort is put forth.
I agree wholeheartedly. There are plenty of Good brands out there that sound great. Many times on the Agon forums the conversation disintegrates into a pissing contest. I feel dealers should be upfront and tell agoners that they are dealers and that Caveats apply. You should never let someone who is only behind a computer typing words on a screen determine what sounds best to you. Go out and listen to the equipment. There are plenty of shows all across the country and with the current climate in high end audio many brick and mortar dealers should be salivating at the prospect of having interested parties in their showrooms.
Ptss, It's impossible to intelligently disagree with the subjective negative comments here regarding either of the speakers you're interested in.
First of all, both of these speakers systems are incredibly revealing of EVERYTHING upstream as well as is the room and their setup within that room.
Some years ago my initial encounters with Eidolons at shows and in showrooms were similar in some respects to what some have mentioned here. On three occasions I chose to purchase speaker that seemed more extended and vibrant than the Eidolon, which seemed sleepy and underwhelming in direct comparison in an unfamiliar environment.
Once home my choices never satisfied as I was always found myself listening to the system and not the music. I replaced cables and electronics in an effort to attain the cohesive musicality I wanted without success. Frankly, I was an uneducated listener.
I'm a working professional Bass player with a great deal of time spent recording. During a session in Los Angeles I was called on by a very famous music producer who asked me to record a simple twelve bar bass line on Upright for another project. I often ask people what they listen with at home. Interested in audio this producer invited us to his home. There I believe I heard ceramic Eidolons at a higher potential for the first time using unmastered mixes and much later, as I said in my earlier post above, at home.
The Eidolons sonic accuracy and musicality could be a very subjective topic. I have a great many unproduced track recordings of my Bass playing on 1/4" magnetic tape and digital files. I've used the digital files to audition other systems at shows and stores. So far the only other speaker that sounds musically correct to me is the Vandersteen Model 7. This could easily be a product of my ears comfort with the two speakers similar attention to time and phase in their design.
I recently switched back to tube amplification and Cardas cabling. I use Hypex nCores to power my Avalon two way studio monitors. Powering the Eidolons with the switching amplifiers offers a completely different presentation of high resolution and transparency.
Opinions can be very helpful if the context is clear. Beware of generalities and absolutes as there are simply far too many variables in this hobby. If you're ever fortunate enough to hear a system that speaks to you make note of every aspect of it as well as the room.
@ Vicdamone, I am a retired touring musician, I believe you should go and audition the JBL DD everest 67000 speakers!, You would be impressed!, and, If you have that kind of money, It is my belief you will not hesatate aquireing a pair for your self!, These are the new released JBL everest, replacing the 66000 model, JBL made a whole lot of improvements with this new model!, My opinion, everyone has one!, Is that this 67000 speakers are one of the best available speakers today!, I also believe that musicians will love them!, Happy listening!
It is as it is, I Always say. Both Avalon and Revel make good speakers. There is no doubt about this. They have both there own sound and talents/properties. It's a free world to talk about speakers. At the end it is about a personal taste, this is the most important part in audio. You never can Judge about the personal taste of a person. It is the same as you cannot say; vanilla ice is better ice than chocolate ice. I do not like the sound of a Avalon speaker. Because in my world ( it is only my world) there are better ones. We are still only talking about a personal preference. I want a 3d sound were instruments are small and exeptional palpable when I listen to my music. Because this gives me the intimate sound I experienced with live classical music. Wenn I listen to Avalon speakers the level in 3d imaging and level in touchable sound is less good then wenn I listen to Monitor Audio Pl-200. Why? because the emotion ( for me) is bigger. Voices and instruments are sharper focussed and so it is more near to me. Avalon gives more distance to me and the music.
I thought I would weigh in here for those who may not of had a chance to hear the Eidolon and or Diamond version properly set up with the associated equipment being of commensurate quality.
For what it may be worth to the reader my opinions are also based from my experiences of being a professional musician for 40 plus years, audiophile for nearly as long, but most importantly, music lover. Yes, yet another musician!
As a few others already pointed out the Eidolon Diamond really does reflect back what is put into it. It will simply mirror the sonic character of everything that proceeds it in the chain. Hopefully if all components are up to the task the personality of the recording will come through untouched. It does not add any tonal bloat, muck, thickness or slur. I find it to be one of the most tonally correct distortion free speakers I've ever heard. Though the quality I enjoy most is the way it relates all tones, notes, timbres, etc. of the recording as a cohesive coherent whole. There is a fluid nature to the sound that I miss with other speakers. Massed strings is especially revealing of this quality. The music just seems to flow, all notes perfectly related in time, and thus the sound coming out now makes more musical sense.
When I listen to live acoustic music I never ever hear the pin-point, etched in stone, chiseled carved images that have been mentioned. Now, that's not to say with a studio recording we hear these types of recordings with images of such solidity often. But to me this is an artifact of hi-fi and has nothing to do with real live music being performed and recorded in a real acoustic space. The Eidolon/Diamond can image like crazy and totally disappear in a room when properly set up better than any speaker I've ever heard. Really!
Where this speaker does fall short for its considerable cost is in dynamic authority without any sense of strain, and a bass response that does not give the full weight of the bottom octaves. For many these attributes are very important and I could certainly understand why some would pass them by. Be forewarned though, if you live these speakers for any length of time I think their qualities that have been discussed would be impossible to do without. Well, for me at least.
all the best,
My experience in a small room for about 65 people was that a voice ( like an instrument) was a lot more direct and smaller in dimension than I would have thought. I used Always 2 fingers to make a proportion wenn I clossed my eyes. Also at a bigger live concert with a very good acoustic situation I had the same experience. We were amazed how easy it was to point out the instruments. Also the differences in depth were the instruments were standing was easy to hear. Wenn I hear Avalon with MIT at audio shows and the speakers are about 3 metres from eachother. The voice is often over 1 metre wide. This I really hate. I love cables like Audioquest and Purist Audio because they are capable of giving a small and direct 3 dimensional image of a recording. Purist Audio uses a panel of 41 people to Judge there new cables. Also musicians. AQ and Purist are both aware of the small and direct sound of instruments and voices. The both have exeptional good blacks. I used my set for a big audio show last month. Many ( distributers, customers and audio journalists)said that I had the absolute sound. Cause of the natural sound and 3 dimensional paupable image. I want a system to sond as natural and 3 dimensional like in real. Good is never good enough for me. Every part ( tool) in my system I Judge for a long time before I use it. Since I was 6 ( I made my own recordings from the radio with a stereo taperecorder with tubes) I am addicted to music and sound.
Just picked up a pair of early Eidolon Diamonds. Still have my Eidolon and Ascent. Took a "detour" in recent years and decided to go the JM Lab Utopia Be route and experimented with redoing the crossover of an infamously bad Utopia Divas. While there is no way a stock Utopia Diva Be can come close to the imaging dept of any of the 3 Avalons, let alone a muddy bass, a tweaked out Utopia CAN image as well as the Diamonds and the smooth fluidity of the Be tweeter mated with the right crossover caps in my opinion beats the diamonds any day.
Audiolabyrinth, My first LOUD backline Bass system (before simple public address became sound reinforcment) was made up of two James B Lansing Scoops,
powered by Marantz 8Bs and a Twin Reverb wired as the preamp. This Rube Goldberg (pain in the ass to move and setup) of a system served me well until the first commercially available loud Bass amplification my 69' acoustic 360/361 horn.
In the sixties JBL was unbelievably helpful regarding construction and componentry. Their other offerings outclassed Altec hugely. My audiophelia began with lens and cone and the advent of the new Everest line is very intriguing to this old fud. I can't help but recall the incredible low volume dynamic unique to these designs. I can only imagine what modern refinments have contributed. I envy you.
@ vicdamone, Well, Do not envy me to fast!,LOL!, Currently I own a pair of JBL L7s that are not horn loaded speakers, that are the last High-end dynamic driver speakers JBL produced that are not the mass junk audio tower speakers!,They are 4 way 30hz to 27khz speakers mated with still points ultra ss footers and Taralabs omega jumpers, with Taralabs omega gold speaker cables!, They sound very good!, My next pair of speakers is going to be the JBL DD everest 66000 speakers that are not the new current offering, the new 67000 speakers are better sounding!, The 66000 I am going to get on the used market for around $25,000.00 to $28,000.00, they did retail for $60,000.00, and the new JBL DD everest 67000 speakers retail now for $75,000.00,, Their is a audiogoner selling a pair of the new 67000 here on the gon for $55,000.00 2nd hand new in the boxes!, He got his self in a financial situation where he is forced to sell them!, out of my price range!,LOL!, If you get a chance to hear the 67000 speakers, I believe you would have a smile on your face!, Happy listening!
I am surprised by the level of detail related to the sound comparison of the Salon 2 and the Eidolon.
I honestly thought one of them would sound more musical, nuanced, dynamic, flowing and involving than the other in a way most would be able to agree on. You know, toe tapping, rhythmic, party inviting, involving, close your eyes and flow with the music presentaion. I seems to compare them is not that simplistic.
I had been hoping for a higher degree of concensus. Maybe they are both great speakers; perhaps not that different?
I concur with Omsed's opinion posted on 5/27.
Both my eidolons and diamonds have a tendency for the mid high to thin out. The original eidolon is a bit grainier and misses the ultimate in resolution vs the diamonds. The diamonds have a more accurate sounding mid bass that no longer excites my small room.
But my low ceiling really reveals their tendency to thin out and a slight exaggeration of the mid highs, which make them sound so 3D and airy when playing certain material. I don't know anything about the Salons but I do find the inefficiency and current requirements posing a challenge to amps and speaker cables. Much much more so than "easy" speakers like Utopia.
With classical music I never liked Avalon. Because the sound of instruments is a lot different in real. I also use the word 'thin'in de mid freq. The other thing is dat the stage is deep and wide but within this stage instruments and voices are never sharp focussed and toucable as in real. My Pl-200 is superior in individual focus and a touchable image. I did a few tests and it was a big difference in how much beter the Pl-200 can focus comparred to Avalon. Because the stage is also very deep and wide as Avalon can.
The sound of violins is very hard to "tame" on both Eidolons.
Any time I use a stock non-triode tube amp or Solid state amp they thin out very noticeably. Much more so with the Eidolons. I recall using all Audio Research gear (stock) and boy I had to reach for Advil everytime a violin concerto is played.
I have no problems with the sharp focus, likely because of a smaller room and I did a lot of experimentation with rear wall distance and toe in.
BTW My experience is that Cardas speaker cables for some strange reason will make the vocal image unnaturally large, at least with the old Eidolons.
There are only a few brands who are exeptional good in a very sharp individual focus. Many make instruments too big. Audioquest and Purist Audio are one of the few who can give a very intimate focus like in real. I listened a few times to the Eidolons with classical music. A violin sounds a lot different in real. The thing I hate most is the individual touchable focus of Avalon. There is a lot of depth but I miss the intimate sound a small classical recording can give.