audiphile power cords

Thankyou Ralph, As Always, Learned something from you again.

Thank you Pgawan2b. I've done, some treatments (bass panels behind me, 1st reflection points, floor in front of speakers) and it has helped. Power is the final thing for me to address, thus my questions. Also going to do dedicated lines.

I have the Pangea AC14SE cords as well, and would tend to agree with Pga on most points except I would qualify that the difference with these versus any other cord might vary widely case by case.

In my case, I like the sound with them on my DAC especially and pre-amp in that noise and distortion seems lower, but it is quite subtle and hard to quantify. A nice product though for the cost. I'm sure there are many others as well. Power cords are definitely something to consider when dealing with system power considerations, though its hard to say what is best or worth it. The good new is there are many options at many price points.

All you guys have to do is listen with a standard PC and try something good. You need to be deaf to not hear it. Or, I guess, if you don't hear it, your rig is not revealing enough.

I think I hear it, but have not done enough A/B comparisons to be sure. As long as it sounds as good or better to me than before, I am happy, placebo or not. I think not, but these more subtle things are hard to say with absolute certainty without extensive testing that I do not have time nor desire to do

I am the spelling suggester only...I do realize it's a lot to ask...

@Rockdanny- When you have your dedicated lines installed: if using Romex, put a good twist in it, over it's entire length, to reduce noise(EMI/RFI) pickup, and to cancel the wire's own magnetic field. When I did mine; I used a double run of 10 AWG, which is the equivalent of 4 AWG. That was over 120Ft, to the room and what a difference, from the 12 AWG that was in there! (http://isadenver.org/Docs/ReducingNoise.pdf)

Rodman - thanks for the tip! That will be easy to do.

Happy Listening!

I have a question, Does one reap better performance benefits with some of the state of the art power cords out there versus some of the state of the art tube rolling out there?, currious I am, what's your opinion out there?, In other words, which tweek gives a system the best up-grade?, I understand I will likly do both, just something I would like to know.

Here are a few questions directed mainly at Ralph “Atmasphere” regarding his post.
First Ralph I have great respect for you and your contributions to these forums, your advice has been very helpful in allowing me to push my system to new heights.
I will start with a crude question. If a simple power cords can improve the quality of sound to the extent that it warrants its exorbitant price tag, why would you not (as a designer and seller of amplifiers) sell your amplifier straight out of the box with such a power cord. From a business perspective you could be providing your clients with more value and pocketing the added margins that others in the industry are essentially taking from you. From the client perspective I would feel pretty bad about a product that I paid top dollar for and that at a later point I find out that it is not performing at the peak of its performance.
Clearly as manufacturer you want to hit a specific price point, but why are the cords then not offered as options at a minimum?
Now on to the more technical aspects, I read the link to the Shunyata article, it was a very interesting read. The charts in the article show some numbers and that is a great starting point, I applaud Shunyata for trying to show metrics for their products. Mr. Gabriel is claiming that the magnitude in difference that a cord will limit current between stock cords and his products is 40% or 50%. In real terms are the figures being quoted relevant, and how and why. For example on the graph of the Black Mamba vs the Venom the magnitude of the difference between the two graphs is only large between about 7 and 20 usecs, is this significant?
Comparing all the graphs, it seems that the factors that contribute most to rapid current delivery are gauge and surface of contact (i.e. better connector). It would appear that the difference between the Venom 3 and the 14awg Hubble is in the order of magnitude from what you would expect from a 12ga vs 14ga. Would you agree with this observation?
Regarding noise and improvements to the noise floor, if you want to filter out noise why not install a filter, why use a power cord as line filter?
Finally, when reading through this threads and the many others on this topic there appears to me to be a consensus that apply to all power cords regardless of price or brand, that is there is no way to predict with any degree of certainty whether a particular cord will improve the sound of a given system, the only way to know is to try. This puzzles me. That not every power cord can work in every situation, is something I can understand and would expect. But I cannot comprehend the fact that manufacturers generally don’t provide guide lines or target specific applications and even if they do those results do not appear to be repeatable. To me it seems that there is a lot of pseudo-science disguised with high tech graphs and instrumentation and very little testable and refutable theories out there.
There you are more fuel for the fire!

Sorry, but I have to disagree with this statement,

I used a double run of 10 AWG, which is the equivalent of 4 AWG

For equivalent wire gauge of a double run using same wire, you double the cross sectional area, not the diameter. Looking at this wire gauge chart, a double run of 10 AWG is equivalent to 7 AWG, and this AWG calculator confirms that.

Hope this helps with you future calculations.

Two different tweaks, each with potential to change the sound in different ways. Which is better or does more is likely to vary case to case. In general, performance of tubes CAN vary more widely, from high performance to dead and everything in between. Power cords are more durable and less problematic in practice.

Hi Audiolabyrinth

It depends on your tube amplifier you want to try the tube rolling or power cord swapping with. I have a Jolida JD-502P tube amplifier and when I spoke to Jolida they told me the change that made the most difference sound wise was rolling with 12AX7 tubes. A buddy of mine who has a different amplifier found power tube rolling and a power cord change improved the sound in his system. I say call the maker of your tube amp to see and then experiment on your own.

@mr T: OOPS! It's been a few years, since I did the
math(I've slept since then). The old processor has been
dropping a few bits and bytes lately, as well. The wire
upgrade results are still grand, however.

.
Nick_sr, thank you very much for saying so eloquently exactly what I've been thinking for at least ten years.

I paid $10k for an excellent tube preamp. For the life of me, I cannot wrap my head around a $10k power cord...or a $5k power cord...or a ...$3k power cord...

Come on! $5k for a power cord??
.

+1 Mitch....not in my lifetime!

@ Tls49, Interesting, I used the Gauge caculator link you provided, Thankyou for that, As it turns out, My power cord uses 60 runs of 10AWG, The Caculator says my power cord is 1 AWG!!!, Awsome!

The # 1 rule for more marginal audio tweaks is always ask "why?". It works in life in general the same way.

There should be some good reason to try anything, especially an expensive piece of technology. Any technical gadget worth its salt is designed a particular way for a specific purpose. If it is not, or if it might be but nobody can tell you why, just move on to clearer waters.

One or two people saying "this is what I heard" is NOT a good reason, even if somehow it could be determined that they did in fact hear what they relate. Its a data point that means something, but relatively little alone in teh big picture. The question is always why does something do what it claims to do. Even an unsubstantiated theory on why is better than nothing, which is what one might end up often getting with this stuff.

If even the maker cannot provide a good answer, then best to just move on until someone can. You'll probably end up in a happier place sooner and for less money.

Audiolabyrinth, if you are referring to your Tara Labs Cobalt, I think you are confused. It uses 60 runs of a smaller wire to make 10 AWG, not 60 runs of 10 AWG. It would be impossible to terminate 60 runs of 10 AWG to the Cobalt's connectors. Also, it would be much larger and extremely difficult to bend, and as Atmasphere stated, required by law to be flexible.

If a simple power cords can improve the quality of sound to the extent that it warrants its exorbitant price tag, why would you not (as a designer and seller of amplifiers) sell your amplifier straight out of the box with such a power cord.

The problem is that there is a very good chance that the power cord will be dumped in favor of another. This is why we have always had IEC connections on our products, so it is possible to audition power cords. FWIW, on our MA-2 we actually have 2 separate AC circuits, using 2 power cords. This was done to minimize the effects of the AC wiring both inside and outside the amplifier. That feature was designed into the amp in 1990.

The power cord is never being used as a filter BTW. I can only describe that idea as mythology.

Regarding the readings that Shunyata had in that article, I think it would be very interesting to test some common cords on there, like certain models of Belden. I think that heavy gauge is usually a good place to start- install some decent connectors and you are usually well on your way. However if you think about it, just doing that and selling it at a normal markup will result in a power cord that costs at least $150.00- maybe more like $200...

Bojack, THE 60s??!! Really!! So nothing has changed in 50 years.

Bojack, I bet you were the old guy ahead of me in the 5 items or less checkout writing a personal check for 1 item of Geritol??

There's really no debate, just try it for yourself. Easy enough ...

Thankyou Tls49 for the correction, I must say though, The Cobalt with top Oyaide IEC and Plug sounds very good on my system, I am Happy with the performance of this power cord, In the world of High-end power cords, That is Rare for me.

Very good post Ralph, interesting to say the least, Oh, by the way, Back in the late 90s, I rented many, many power cords from the cable company that retailed for lots of money, This was for a krell FPB 200, all of them sounded way worse than the stock Beldin Power cord that came with the amp, However, This is 2014, and I decided to try power cords once again, To my suprise, This power cord I have works well, and sounds great, I am sure there is better, But man, at what cost!, cheers to you Ralph.

The problem is that there is a very good chance that the power cord will be dumped in favor of another.

Wow, I really did not expect that as a response. In that case why supply a power cord at all with the amp? Speaker don’t come with speaker cables. Heck, why supply tubes, those will most likely be dumped too.

Regarding the mark up, I did some research and in general I would agree, it would be difficult put together a cable for less than $100. However, there are medical grade power cords available for about 20 to 25$ from brands such as Volex or Qualtek. However, they are only available in 14AWG to 18AWG with 15amp IEC connectors. 12AWG comes with 20amp connector. So for most audio components to you would be stuck with 14AWG. So it would appear that cables such as the Venom 3 probably do over a good value.

06-06-14: Atmasphere
Regarding the readings that Shunyata had in that article, I think it would be very interesting to test some common cords on there, like certain models of Belden. I think that heavy gauge is usually a good place to start- install some decent connectors and you are usually well on your way. However if you think about it, just doing that and selling it at a normal markup will result in a power cord that costs at least $150.00- maybe more like $200...

As a point of reference, Signal Cable offers 10 gauge cords in a six foot length for $83. They also offer a double-shielded 12 gauge cord intended for use with digital components in a six foot length for $124. Shorter lengths are also available, at lower prices. Descriptions are provided here (click the "more info" links).

FWIW, I have used both with excellent results, as have several other members here in whose ears I trust.

Best regards,
-- Al

If I was to replace my fine sounding but hipness challenged cords with Pangeas that cost under 100 bucks, or ZU audio that are even less in some cases, or entry level Shunyatas, would I then reap the benefits of better electron management? My system currently is very quiet, has PS Audio and Pangea power supply tweaks, and seems to sound great. What do I do with the then unused cables? Make jewelry? The notion that I'd borrow expensive stuff and see what matches best with my system has been obviated by my previous experiment with the one high end cord I have...zero difference...meaning my current batch of decent wire is working, or I'm a tim eared bonehed...I may simply ignore the entire exercise and continue to be ovepaid to mix live jazz concerts using unexotic cables...just don't blow my cover.

I have a friend who profoundly claims that wire is wire..... copper is copper and silver is silver, they all sound alike whether it's power cords, speaker cables or interconnects. I asked him what high end cables he has heard. He said none.
If you haven't heard it, you don't have an opinion.

Regarding power cords and the "last 6 feet" argument, I would think if you had some sort of voltage regulation or power regeneration of some sort, you would then reap the benefits of a higher end power cord.

That said, different cables make a difference. Meaning, in my opinion, MOSTLY all cables DO SOMETHING to the signal leaving the component. If you really want to hear what your system sounds like, theoretically speaking, you would use the exact same cables that are inside your components to CONNECT your components. When you place $3,000 speaker cables between your amp and speakers, your aren't "unlocking" hidden information inside your amplifier. Those cables are manipulating the signal to give it added "air" or more "warmth" or whatever. The cables used inside the amp that lead to the binding posts are usually just plain pure copper wires. Remove the cover of your amp and take a look at the wires going to the binding posts. High end cables are tone controls to the "n"th.

Devil boy, I suspect your friend might possibly have a conniption if someone told him that interconnects sound better in one direction than the other or that the conductor of one of the new super cables is mostly nickel.

Power cables do make a difference...I've tried listening to my system without them and have been met with complete silence...no distortion or room mode interference of course, but no sound either...therefore I can highly recommend AC cords as they do seem to be a key component when one needs to get current from the wall to the gear. Call this a controversial position, but I'm sticking to it.

Geoffkait, Thanks for the idea. I'm over his place quite frequently. The next time I am, and we're both pounding some beers down,(and we always are), I'll bring up this subject and the notion of cables being directional. Oh boy, I can't wait for him to go berserk.

@ Wolf_Garcia, Your post had me laugh, great sence of humor, cheers.

Ralph since the key seems to be power transfer with minimum loss what cable(s) have your products sounded their best with?
I am just curious.

"what cable(s) have your products sounded their best with?"

Also what if anything do they have in common from a design perspective?

@ Tls49, I believe we both were mistaken as to what the Tara labs cobalt power cord's gauge size is, I do know that the conductors are 24 awg, and has 60 of them, you may confirm this on the Tara labs site, according to the wire caculator you supplied, My power cord gauge size is 6 gauge, BTW is really good, or you can use the other caculator, the power cord has three runs of 10 awg, and that turns out to be 5 gauge, either way, The cobalt is not 10 gauge.

That's strange, the Tara Labs site about their Cobalt power cord, as skimpy as the info is, clearly states it is a 10ga cord made up of 60 conductors. That would mean 60 #28 ga wires in a bundle.

Rleff, We have had good results with Synergistic Research, Purist Audio Design and Shunyata Research, for starters...

Audiolabyrinth, I believe you are confused again. A power cord consists of 3 conductors, hot, neutral and ground. The gauge of the power cord is the gauge of one of those conductors, not the 3 combined. Tara Labs specs the Cobalt as a 10 gauge power cord, so I'm thinking the 60 runs would be 20 runs in each of the 3 conductors, therefore making the 20 runs of this smaller wire equivalent to 10 gauge. Same is true for speaker cable that has 2 conductors, positive and negative. The gauge of the speaker cable is the gauge of one of those conductors, not the 2 combined.

Tony (TSL49) is correct, as usual. 20 paralleled 23 gauge wires are equivalent to 10 gauge; 20 paralleled 24 gauge wires are equivalent to 11 gauge. Keith (Audiolabyrinth) had indicated earlier that 24 gauge wires are used in the Cobalt, so based on the supposition of 20 wires for each of the three conductors all of the numbers seem roughly (although not precisely) consistent.

Regards,
-- Al

I can highly recommend AC cords as they do seem to be a key component when one needs to get current from the wall to the gear.

Not true anymore

Soon all these ridiculous PC debates will be over...

Al and Tony, I agree, 20 parallel 23ga conductors make up each of three runs from IEC to plug. To me it was somewhat misleading in stating it was 60 conductors until I read how they described their other power cables. However, for this cable they only used enough ink for two sentences to describe it.

Damn, sorry gentleman, maybe I will phone call Tara Labs and get to the bottom of this, However, I am sure all of you are correct, I really don't understand, I used the caculator provided by Tony, and used it the way the site explained it, Thanks Al and tony.

Thanks Al, your input is always very much appreciated, and I'm sure sometimes my answers are influenced by what I have learned reading your posts.

Tony

Audiolabyrinth, as I said the power cord consists of 3 conductors.

Hot - 20 runs of the smaller wire
Neutral - 20 runs of the smaller wire
Ground - 20 runs of the smaller wire

for a total of 60 runs.

You should use 20 in the AWG calculator for number of wires, not 60, to determine the equivalent gauge, as the gauge of the power cord is the size of only one of the conductors, not all 3 of them combined.

thanks Ralph

Well, I did say I would get back to this thread, Tls49, As It turns out we are all wrong about the Tara Labs cobalt power cord, I recieved my E-mail from Tara Concering this Awg size, Here is the absolute correct build and resulting Gauge size, live run-14 times 24 GAUGE RSC = 14 awg... combined with 2 times 12 awg becomes 8 AWG, Neutral run...14 TIMES 24 AWG rsc = 14 AWG.. COMBINED WITH 2 TIMES 12 BECOMES 8 AWG, GROUND RUN... 2 TIMES 12 AWG = 10 AWG... COMBINED WITH 2 TIMES 12 AWG BECOMES 8 AWG, iN ADDITION, LIVE AND NEUTRAL RUNS ARE SHIELDED WITH 12 AWG EACH OF LARGE BRAIDED COPPER SHIELDING, CONNECTED WITH GROUND PATH., THERE YOU HAVE IT, THE COBALT IS 8 AWG OVERALL, Glad to been able to resolve this issue once and for all, cheers.

Keith, thanks for providing this info.

I must say, though, that it is not particularly confidence inspiring that their website says 10 gauge and 60 conductors, while their response to you says 8 gauge and a total of 36 conductors.

Also, there are some minor inconsistencies in their response:

14 x 24 awg is approximately 13 awg, not 14 awg, and is actually a bit heavier (lower in gauge) than 13 awg.

2 x 12 awg is 9 awg, not 10 awg.

2 x 12 awg + 2 x 12 awg on the ground run (if that description is accurate) would be 6 awg, not 8 awg.

Regards,
-- Al

I agree Al, I thought the same thing, but that is what they E-mailed me, you made everything more clear, so what is you caculation of the over all gauge?

... what is you caculation of the over all gauge?

Assuming their descriptions of the wires are accurate, overall it is an 8 gauge cord as they indicated to you, since 14 x 24 awg + 2 x 12 awg for the hot and the neutral each correspond to 8 awg.

The 6 awg for the ground run, which as I indicated is what corresponds to their description of 2 x 12 awg + 2 x 12 awg, doesn't affect the overall characterization of the cord as 8 awg, since assuming a major defect is not present in the equipment almost all of the current flows through just the hot and neutral conductors.

Regards,
-- Al

thankyou Almarg.