Most recordings being studio works, I'm not surprised! :)
Just about everything in live music is different from an audiophile home system. Can you imagine a jazz or rock group playing in your living room?
I think that what we strive for in our systems is a natural sound, especially with voices, but except in rare situations, it’s not going to sound like a live concert.
The sound quality of almost all amplified performances I have attended has been terrible. If my system sounded like that I’d sell it. There are other aspects of live performance that draws me to concerts.
There is no relation whatsoever between real performance and an audio reproduction on a cd or on a files...We must learn to love them for what they are; very different experiences...
There is no relation between unicorn and a deer or a rhinoceros...The unicorn is beautiful tough...The deer and the rhino also in their own way...
I've never had good results with spikes.Multiple subs and room treatments for me.Real life bass is also effected by the space where it is performed and sometimes the sound guy.It will never sound exactly the same as a live performance so nothing wrong about tweaking the sound towards what is most pleasing to yourself.
With a 6 inches bass driver, no sub, I listen to a magnificent clear bass.… No 20-30 hertz for sure but who need that?
Except for the good speakers I owns, the result is linked to :
1-The mechanical controlled environment of each electronic component (vibrations-resonances controls)
2-The cleaned electrical grid of the room and of the house
3a-the "passive" room treatment with materials absorbant and reflective ones
3b-the "active" acoustical space modifications with reflectors, Helmholtz resonators, Schumann generators, etc.
We must not confuse room treatment 3a with acoustical space modifications 3b. because one work in a passive way, the other work in an active way)
It’s been mentioned many times here that using a rubber device as a speaker footer will not drain the vibration and resonances. It will absorb them resulting in lack of clarity (muddy, unfocused bass).
I’ll agree that a home audio system does not reproduce real-life bass. But I’ve heard a couple systems that produced "is it live or is it Memorex" sound, including the bass.
When I audition my system for friends I still get some who say, where's the bass? My speakers are rated at 25hz, but with dual 6.5" Kevlar woofers they won't sit you back in your seat. I've read reviews that say they have tested them and they do indeed get into the mid to high 20Hz but there are no balls behind it. That is fine with me. I can hear the full range of bass, although I probably only hear down to 30-35Hz, I'm not really after hard thumping bass. I guess a pair of Cornwalls would be better for that.
I'm not sure what this means. The idea is to reproduce accurately the bass that is on the recording be it studio or live. The bass that people hear in large enclosed venues is distorted by echos and standing waves beyond comprehension. The last thing I would want to do is reproduce that. There is accurate and there is everything else. Reproducing the bass of a good live venue is very difficult in a small room, not impossible but close to it. I would venture that not even 1 in 1000 systems even come close. All the theater systems I have heard just make a lot of inaccurate bass and most of the Hi Fi system do not have enough energy or go low enough but do fine above 50 Hz or so.
baclagg, Cornwalls are great speakers but they do not go that low either.
It is really the acoustics of residential sized rooms that is the issue. Speakers may be rated to get down in the 20s but as you say they have no "balls" down there. It really requires a purpose designed subwoofer system, room control and a lot of power. Having lived with subwoofer since the late 70s I can't live without them. Loud is no good if you can't feel the music. I love the visceral aspect of music. In order to get me to sleep as an infant my mother put a table radio in the crib with me. Screwed up by a table radio.
I understand the need for deep bass in rock music or some other musical genre...
But I listen mostly jazz and classical, then 40 hertz, even a 40 hertz without balls is ok.... I have that and nothing more is necessary...
When I was in my crib my mother close the door and let me silent in a silent space... :)
That explain probably why i even disconnected my Kreisel sub....:)
With passive room treatment and active modifications of the acoustical space the speakers can plays 40 hertz with his 7 inches bass woofer...Without balls tough, i feel the bass in my body but no walls shaking... :)
I cannot resist mijostyn to tease you.... My best...
I've read reviews that say they have tested them and they do indeed get into the mid to high 20Hz but there are no balls behind it.
Maybe the effect your friends are looking for is when you have a small to medium room that you can close off completely, the bass can pressurize the room, meaning that you can feel the bass. This is a really cool effect, but if your system is set up in a dwelling with an open floor plan, it's not going to happen.
You can get a subwoofer that will give you ballsier bass but that comes with more expense, equipment, setup and its own set of problems. You just have to decide when you're happy with what you've got. There is always more or something different out there.
mahgister, I do not know if you have ever been to a small jazz club but the rhythm section of a trio or quartet is a very palpable experience. When the bass section of a classical orchestra gets going along with the tympani you also get the same palpable experience. It is accurately achieving that sensation that is the issue. I have never heard or felt a self contained speaker system do it well. Yes, it is not easy to get a separate subwoofer system to do it accurately but it is the solution if managed correctly. I hate to say this but most subwoofers on the market are hopelessly crippled by poor cabinetry, weak electronics and cheap drivers. The only subs on the market that I have been able to consistently integrate and get the right sound and impact are the JL Audio Fathom and Gotham units. My experience with other subs is limited. I like the design of the Magico subs but have not heard them yet. I prefer passive subwoofers mostly because I have outboard digital bass management capabilities and it simplifies the situation with the subs themselves not having electronics in them. I make my own subs which allows me to do stuff with the enclosures that is difficult to do on a commercial basis because it would be too expensive. Most of the distortion comes from the enclosure not the driver.
Tom, there are some subwoofer systems that people really like like Audiokinesis's Swarm system that are very reasonable priced. All I can say is that I would never live without subwoofers and once you have experience the best bass performance there is no going back. Hang the expense.
I agree about not wanting to replicate bass, that at a concert is massively distorted. In fact, I walked out of an Elton John concert because the loudness was no longer music. Crap! I really wanted to see and hear his music live.. not midrange notes actually bouncing off the walls, and slapping you, not to mention every single other sound/noise.
OTOH, I heard YES perform in Tucson, and you bet, I would strive to replicate what I heard that night. They really had it together acoustically, and the musical talent was over the top.
I've done small-ish venue (200 to 500 captive suckers!) sound design/production/mixing for decades and the key to bass is balance...1000 watt 18" subs can be mixed in there with great results exactly like what I do in my home system if you simply apply the same esthetic...make sure they aren't "noticed" by being very careful with levels...that makes the audience feel better than they actually should as hey, they don't deserve me...