It would be helpful if you could describe the issue with a little bit more detail.
Don’t know why you think their comment is laughable.
It’s up to you to do your homework pertaining to a seller. Like how long they’ve been selling, and their feedback. Audiogon can’t police and background check every seller. But we all can when interested in a sellers wares. If you get burned anyway after everything checked out, you’re still protected by PayPal or your credit card company. Then give Audiogon a heads up on that particular seller. If they find the seller to be dishonest, they will most likely get banned. Always take caution with new sellers. It doesn’t automatically mean they’re dishonest, though. Every single seller on here started out new.
Buying expensive things from virtual strangers is an inherently risky business. Be careful! Integrity of sellers varies widely. Use the forum for some clues and ask questions.
Having said that, I do wish there would/could be a stronger proactive stand against fraudulent behavior. If its evident in the forum with specific users then that is a good indicator that it will more likely happen in situations involving money as well. There should be zero tolerance for the benefit of all and I don’t see where that is necessarily the case in these parts based on personal experience.
For expensive camera gear, the FredMiranda.com forum plus marketplace is quite reliable. You get a sense of the community when you review the plentiful, easy-to-access feedback on sellers and buyers. Somewhat the same with GetDPI.com. These forums are also free of keyboard food fights; disagreements are conducted briefly and with civility.
So what is or has become different about Audiogon?
One should consider that it is the readership that sets the tone. Bad actors look for stages with weak audiences who will fall for their grift. I see trolls but not supporters creating support and demand for higher standards.
Caveat emptor means the same think now as it did 2,500 years ago in early Rome, I like Intel's Andy Gove's motto "only the paranoid survive". In a world of folks raised on entitlement the grift is rife. Such is life unless you decide yoowant more and better, and take action..
A more accurate perspective would be that the Internet has long been a hub for scammers. The ability to present an item for sale behind a veil of complete anonymity nearly guarantees that thieves will look for ways to take advantage of those who are overly trusting. And yeah, it sucks to have to be suspicious all the time. But it is unfair to present Audiogon as having become a hub for scammers. To do so suggests that it was once a place where people were honest but is now thoroughly populated by thieves. And that's far from accurate. Getting burned is infuriating. And in anger people sometimes swing in all directions. Your banner title does this site a large disservice, though we do all feel for you. Remember, never pay directly with a credit card, never send a check or cash. Might mean you have to wait for someone else to sell the same thing in a more legitimate way. So wait. And if the deal is just too good to be true, they yes, it is too good to be true. And anyway, if you're a real audiophile, what in god's name are you doing buying Macintosh equipment??? -- Oh man, I can hear the hair standing up on the neck of some people!! L0L. Sorry, I couldn't pass it up. There's lots of fine Mac gear... or so I've been told. L0L. Sorry again.
Audiogon could more assiduously patrol sellers in their marketplace. But that will take time and that will take people and that will take money. Who wants their membership fee to go up? (and by more than just a dollar or two). And how will that price increase drive down new membership? No easy answers.
A suggestion for Audiogon... whenever someone is identified as a scammer, send out a notice of such to all members. You're already sending us emails everyday so it shouldn't be too hard to add one that hopefully only happens from time to time. Of course Audiogon will still have to go through the process of verifying that an actual scam occurred and it's not just a situation of buyer acting fraudulently maybe to get revenge, for example, because a seller wouldn't bring their price down further. Again, no easy answers.
@jim5559 - No shortage of crooks here, that's for sure, but that's kind of a blanket generalization for a place with 350 million people, dontcha think? I've always bought and sold in the US and have had no negative experiences.
I always use PayPal and that is exactly what I did. The Very next day Audiogon suspended the seller, another ad showed up for Mcintosh MC452 with same exact description as the one I had to deal with. Why can’t Audiogon just put all those new sellers ads on hold for 24 to 48 hours until they verify the seller. Audiogon is the one who told me the seller is a fraud and he is located in the UK and not the US as per the ad. Looks to me that Audiogon can identify those scammers, so why not do something about it on the front end before something like this happen to more longtime members?
Does PayPal offer buyer’s protection as Ebay does? I do not quite understand people saying "just use PayPal". Once you paid to the seller who is a scammer, can you make a claim to PayPal and PayPal pay back to you? I think the buyer’s protection plan is one of the reasons why Ebay charges high fee and recoup the money from sellers. I would rather buy from Ebay with a piece of mind.
It’s the responsibility of the manufacturer.
When you purchase a Ferrari, either new or vintage, the owner is entered in a registry so every owner is verifiable. The registry also contains maintenance and provenance data. Enter the VIN on the registry and every single detail of the car appears. If the last address doesn’t meet or match the current owner then you can be suspicious.
Pass Labs does this, McIntosh I’m not sure.
let say father is audiophile and his teenager son wants new iphone with beats headphones,he takes pictures with his android phone and sells his mcintosh gear,but ships nothing:)) I had similar experience when I wanted buy krell fbi amp,googled name of the seller and it appeared to be young guy abaut 15-17years old on facebook:))
on ebay a lot of scammers on other sites also
"Let's be careful out there."
As a best practice, I always work to engage a seller in a substantive conversation about their gear, audio in general, what have you. Scammers are not usually capable of holding that conversation in a way that doesn't raise red flags.
So by the time I've purchased something, I usually have a pretty good sense of who I am purchasing from, unless they are actually both audiophile and scammer, which isn't particularly common, I don't think. Plus I've had some pretty enjoyable interactions.
I’ve bought/sold hundreds of items through this site and others over the past 20 years.. I have never, ever registered any of it with a manufacturer including probably 10 Pass items. Many of these items change hands multiple times. It is NOT the responsibility of a manufacturer to keep track of every item they have ever sold. It is ridiculous to think that they would or even could.
I am new to Audiogon and until now I have relied on it solely as an informative discussion forum for audio equipment owners and users to discuss the various pros and cons of THIS versus THAT brand of gear.
I have learned a lot here that I probably would not have ever found out about had I not discovered Audiogon.
I have audio equipment which I would like to sell, but until now I didn’t know Audiogon is also used as a venue for buying and selling used equipment.
I’ve always thought eBay was THE one-and-only go-to place for buying/selling second-hand items of any kind, be it antique silverware and chinaware, vintage clothing or old phonograph records, etc.
I like the idea of selling audio equipment here, because it’s being directed at a focused specific audience, rather than at the broad, generalized kind of audience that you find on eBay.
Seems to me anyone wanting to sell or buy equipment here must first register with Audiogon, same as we have to on eBay - as well as be a registered PayPal user, because PayPal is at present the best way to guarantee that neither the buyer nor the seller is cheated or scammed. A seller doesn’t get his money until the buyer has received his goods and is genuinely satisfied that he’s gotten what he was promised. Vice-versa, a buyer doesn’t get his goods until the seller has received his payment in full. This is the only fair and right way to do business with complete strangers.
It’s hard to be scammed if we abide by these rules and do our due diligence.
It doesn't work that way, never has. What you are describing is an escrow service, which PayPal is not. As soon as the money is in your PayPal account you have access to it even before you ship. You can use it to buy other things or transfer it out to your bank.
The buyer can come back and file a claim if not satisfied and PayPal can take the money back, but PayPal does not hold it until the buyer states they are satisfied.
I'm currently waiting for the buyers bank fraud investigation findings. (I sold the goods here in December).
Buyer claims that they did not make the purchase, this was after the buyer received the goods. The bank via Stripe took back the money, this cost me an additional $134.
I'm down two thousand +/- and I don't have my goods. (Buyer does not respond).
Don't know if the bank will be impartial?
Audiogon and Stripe cant do much for me, its up to the bank.
The buyer was a member only a few weeks before the purchase, do we need to avoid new members?
I have had nothing but good experiences with buying (and selling) equipment here. I personally don't think that AudioGon has nor should take on responsibility for policing its members, other than to actively mediate a dispute if possible, and ban those who are involved in any sort of fraudulent conduct if satisfied that there was in fact fraudulent conduct and not some misunderstanding or dispute. If they take on the responsibility for "policing" members, then they are exposed to liability if the make an error. I, for one, always check feedback before buying equipment, make sure that I have a phone number and email that is really the seller's, see how they respond during the purchase process and use PayPal or even some escrow service for a high-priced purchase. Even those with perfect feedback can go south, but it is much less likely. I like AudioGon and I don't think that it is any more of a "hub for scammers" than any other online marketplace, and probably less so than most.
Exactly this. I might take a chance on an unknown seller on eBay with limited feedback if it's a $100 item, but on the audio forums, with high-end gear that costs thousands, I never make a transaction without talking to the seller first. If he's hesitant about providing his phone number, no deal. If he seems less than knowledgable or less than forthcoming, no deal.
It's not just on audiogon. Scammers are prevalent everywhere these days. I'm from the IT industry and am surprised at how brazen they are becoming. Both from a technology perspective as well as social engineering. I do my due diligence and haven't been burned yet but....it's a new world out there.
If I have any concern whatsoever I do a phone call with the buyer or seller. I ask for emails, not just PM's. I only use paypal. I look up clients address. I do anything necessary to be comfortable before the deal takes place. If I can't trace a potential sale to a real person, I'm done. And if I don't like what I'm seeing, or even think I smell a small rat, I'm done. If a buyer or seller have no feedback, I'm done.
You really need to be ready to say no these days.
Real coincidence this thread popping up since I posted a new thread this morning based on my experience with what I’m certain are scammers on this site, selling McIntosh gear (clearly they are a popular item). Link
Couldn;t agree more with the above. I have noticed most people in this hobby are more than willing to talk on the phone and usually very transparent about what they are selling. If they refuse to chat on the phone, that’s a BIG red flag in my book!