Audio Research Corp Ref 5 SE
Memorial Day Update on Ref 5SE: Have over 650 hours logged on the Ref 5, although much is idle time hours. I think the Ref 5 is probably broken in by now. It really sings. Very sweet pre-amp. Btw, a major change from an unexpected source. Just replaced the 6H30 driver tubes on my ARC VS-115 amp. Wow! Together, what a combo. Just love mny ARC stuff! |
Phil, stay all ARC. The synergy is worth it. Call Tom ASAP. Not only did his buffer increase the impedance shown of the sub woofer, his device even summed the left and right channels without shorting out the Ref 5's Mains. So, my single sub woofer is mono below 50 ot 60 Hz, and shows my Ref 5 a 330K ohm load. Tom charged me only $500 for the device, which is built like a tank. It's an active device that plugs into the wall. If Tom was to build a device for you that had an input impedance that matched the Ref 250s (200K ohms), your combined impedance would be 100K ohms, which is plenty. |
Bif, I'm glad I came across this and thanks for your input on the postings regarding the impedance buffer from Tom Tutay. Here is what I got: Main 1 (ARC Ref 250) 200,000 ohms X Main 2 (REL Gibraltar Sub) 10,000 ohms/(Ref 250) 200,00 ohms + (REL G1) 10,000 ohms = 9,524 ohms. This is below the recommended. I would run both mains out balanced (with balanced to single ended Cardas adaptors at the main out from the preamp) but it still is below the recommended 20K ohms for the Ref 5SE. I really wanted to go all ARC for synergy, but I'm not sure anymore. |
@ Phil -- could be. Search the Forum for my posts regarding a custom impedance buffer that was made for me to resolve this issue. The formula to compute combined impedance is: The product of Main 1 feed imp. x Main 2 feed imp, divided by the sum Main 1 feed imp + Main 2 feed imp. In my case, Main 1 feeds my VS-115 which has an input impedance of 300K ohms and Main 2 feed the customer impedance buffer which has an input impedance of 330K ohms. If you do the math, the combined impedance is 157K ohms. Run your calcs and report back. |
Two comments - First, I have around 150 hours on my Ref 250 amps and my Ref Phono 2SE and what I have noticed is an not so subtle improvement in transparency and sweetness in the highs. The bass out of the box was really great. Right now, it may have toned down a bit in the bass, but having never been a believer in component 'break-in', I am really starting to become a believer now. Second, Bifwynne, I am contemplating replacing my Rowland Synergy Iii with a Ref 5SE to have an all ARC system. I also use a REL Gilbraltar sub with only a load of 10K ohms. I don't like hooking the sub up to the amps, so I run it through the preamp main out. Based on what you described in your previous post, would that be a problem for the Ref 5SE? |
I don't recall. At this point, I think the whole presentation is quite impressive. Just curious, what's the input impedance of your amp? Is your Ref 5 SE driving anything else like a sub woofer? As an fyi, most ARC line stages, incl the Ref 5, should not be driving a combined load of less than 20K ohms. |
I'm breaking in my upgraded phono 2SE. Right out of the box it sounded wonderfull for some hours: transparent, detailed with slam and a very present bass. Then the sound collapsed. After 600 hours the heights and mids are wonderfull, but I'm still missing the bass: ok it's detailed but it seems to stay behind some db's. |
Hi ,my pre was starting to shine at 400 hours,at 450 it is still getting better and sounds alot different.Can't wait till 600.I would like ask,with this pre,do we need to add a power cord with sonic spectaculars.My tara labs air,has no sonic signature,just delivers good clean reasonibly fast power.So the pre is delivering the goods on its own,the way it should be, I suggest.Im interested in your thoughts as pc have come along way over recent years.Do I fix something,not broken,in that department.I do plan on holding onto this pre for along time,as its the best I've owned ,by a long way.My next best,imo was a ls 15. |
Hearing some more changes. The soundstage seems to have moved back and it's now about 2 feet behind the speakers. The speakers have largely disappeared. The center stage is filling in with more detail. Imaging is improving. Mid-range and treble smoothing out. I'll report back again if any more changes. Just turned my sub woofer gain up a notch to see if bass blends with the improving soundstage and I think it does. My source is an EMI Classic CD of Tchaikovsky regulars, Mariss Jansons conducting the Oslo and London Philharmonic Orchestras. Playing 1812 Overture. Gotta go and turn down the gain before the cannons kick in or my wife will throw a bucket of water on my rig. ;>') |
Mitch . . . as I have already said and I repeat myself for emphasis sake, as a previous owner of a Ref 3, the Ref 3 will go down as a clssic line stage, it's just that good. I wouldn't stress myself about it. I figure the cost to upgrade to a new Ref 5 SE will be about $7+ thousand (i.e., about $12K [assuming discount], less $5K to sell used Ref 3). It's one thing to go from a Ref 5 to the SE for about $2500. IMO, it's a whole 'nuther ball game to jump from a Ref 3 to the Ref 5 SE for $7+ thousand. |
Dbarger, I think I will stand corrected. I pulled out some LPs I haven't listened to in a while and I think there really may be a real difference. Btw, I also correct myself re the hours. It's only 285 right now. So, the Ref 5 SE is still breaking in. In any case, I think your comment that the Ref 5 seems to "breathe [more] freely" is well put. More open and transparent. Tighter and more focused imaging and wider 3-D sound stage than before. Actually quite impressive. I'm listening to an old London Phase 4 LP where Leo Stowkoski is conducting the London Symphony Orchestra, playing a lot of his old standards like Night on Bald Mountain, Ride of the Valkyries, etc. Wow -- I can almost see each instrument. I may be a believer yet. I'll report back in a couple hundred hours or so. Cheers. |
I know it is hard to believe, but I actually found the improvements from 500-600 hrs. to be fairly profound. Up until the, maybe, 300 hour mark, it just did not breathe as freely. It sounded a little constrained. It required a 20 minute warm-up to sound its best. I am now at 780 hrs, and it sounds better in five minutes than it used to in 40. Just more open, relaxed, transparent, free breathing, effortless, and musical. Less mechanical, if you will. Now, that said, if you don't like the sound at 300 hrs, you will likely still not like it at 600. I also have a Shindo preamp and enjoy that also. They are different, and have different presentations. I appreciate both. Would I want one with the best aspects of both? I doubt it. I like the contrasts, and the different insights they both bring. |
Very good question Phil. Perhaps Dbarger will illuminate us. Here's a 10,000 foot response at 350 hours. I think the changes ARE occurring but are very subtle. That's why it's hard for me to be more specific. But I can say this. The natural synergy that exists between the Ref 5 SE and my other ARC components cannot be overstated. I really enjoy listening to the music, especially when working at home. Just pop in a CD and listen to Mile Davis jazz -- heaven. As an aside, on the one hand, I have gained immeasurably from reading the OPs on the Forum. But OTOH, on occassion, the "techno-speak" causes me to listen to the gear and NOT the music. Just recently, I have been obsessing about amp and speaker compatibility. After having auditioned a pair of Vandies and my S8s -- no more. I'm doing just fine as is. I'm just going to listen to the music and settle down. My problem is that I am a frustrated EE audio equipment designer and just plain too dumb to be a EE audio equipment audio designer. Sorry Ralph (Atmasphere). I would have loved to work at your company in a zero negative feedback environment. Just not smart enough. And too, I've come to hate odd-numbered harmonic distortion. I'd drive both of us crazy. Cheers ;>) |
What does everyone notice as the 'break in' process completes somewhere between 300-600 hours with ARC procducts? I recently purchased both ARC Ref 250 monos and an ARC Ref Phono 2SE to replace a Rowland 302 and Rowland Cadence phono. Still using the Rowland Synergy IIi as I await the funds for a Ref 5SE preamp. In my system, replacing the Rowland with ARC, I noticed a more open sound, better ambience retrieval of space, more detail. Bass slam was similar. With the Rowland gear, the sound was a tad dark, but with ARC (so far) I'm getting a thinning in the midrange that I miss a bit compared to the midrange solidity of the Rowland. Not sure what synergy I would get with a Ref 5SE to complete the ARC electronics, etc. |
Well, I have to tell you, at 300 hours, it is NOT broken in. You will still undergo noticeable improvements. I also owned a Ref3, and then Ref5, and now the 5se. It is after the 500-600 hour mark that the benefits are most apparent. Yes, prior to that, it is marginally better than its predecessors. But after about 600 hrs, it is noticeably better, imo. You really can't make these judgements yet as to where it will end up. |
Thanks Djcxxx. Your comments kinda' substantiate my general reactions that at some point, there are diminishing returns. I used to own the Ref 3 too. I had the same reactions as did you about the change from the Ref 3 to the Ref 5, and then again to the Ref 5 SE. By the way, for the benefit of those folks who own a Ref 3, let me assure you, IMO, it's still one heck of a great linestage. Sorta' makes me chuckle when I read that going from component A to component B will be a "day and night difference." As I mentioned elsewhere, I may be going down upgrade alley again, but this time with speakers. Paradigm S8s to Vandy Quattro Woods, maybe?? Reason: I have agita that the S8s may not be a good electrical match for my ARC tube amp. The dealer will drive the Vandies with the same ARC tube amp that I own. Now that will be an interesting audition. |
I just replaced my Ref3 with a 5SE. There are clearly discernable improvements in background quiet, detail, and soundstage definition. A "whole new ballgame", no, not really. Am I satisfied? Yes I will be able to live with this unit for many years without the need to upgrade. By the way the wait list for my Ref Phono 2 SE upgrade is now 6 mos and cost is $3K. |
Ok guys. I have about 300 hours on the Ref 5 SE. I guess it's run in by now. Here's my reactions FWIW. Yeah, I think the SE version has a more refined sound presentation. Just sounds a bit smoother. Better bass and punchier -- probably because the power supply was doubled. Was it worth $2500? Sure, why not??? Is it a day and night difference?? A "whole nuther' league"?? I don't think so. Still has the ARC house sound. Do I recommend getting the upgrade done? If you have the spare change . . . sure. If there's something else you're looking to do, and it's either option A or the SE upgrade, but not both, . . . tough call. I s'pose' it depends on what you have in mind. Maybe I sound a bit reserved because I think I've reached the point of diminishing returns. I think I'd have to spend a heck of a lot more change to squeeze much more out of my current rig, e.g., change out my $7K ARC VS-115 amp for a $12K or $13K ARC Ref 150 amp, new speakers, and so forth. Actually, I'm planning on auditioning a pair of Quattro Woods at a nearby Vandy dealer this week. The Quattros will be driven by an ARC VS-115 amp the dealer took in trade. I'll come back with some reactions for you Vandy fans. For some reason, I'm dubious that I'll get blown away. I realize that some feel my Paradigm Sig. 8s are "mid-fi" speakers. Fact is that the Quattros and S8s cost about the same and Paradigm can pack a heck of a lot of R&D and QC into the S8s because of economies of scale and because they build pretty much everything in-house. That's all I'll say. Don't want to start another speaker war. Cheers. |
Well, a year later, my Ref 5 SE was just delv'd. I've got about 5 or 6 hours on it. ARC also changed out all of the 6H30 tubes too. I won't embarrass myself by sharing reactions yet. Chris Osanna said break-in should take 300 hours on upgraded units. I'll be back. Ok, just one comment -- the SE sounds different than the Ref 5. That it for now. |
>>I just got a shunyata anaconda cx for my 5SE.<< Does this have their new ZiTron technology? Can you comment on effect of the pc? Thanks! |
Less than a week and 55 hours later, it's already obvious they've done something special with the SE. The noise floor seems lowered a fair bit. Where it took me to 50-55 on my old 5 to get some semblance of dynamics, I can now tap happily to the beat and dynamics at 18-20 when I listen late at night. I still listen at 55 during the day so the relative levels appear unchanged. |
