Audio Research Corp Ref 5 SE


Just picked up news on another OP that ARC is upgrading the Ref 5 to an SE version that incorporates some of the technology from the Ref 40. The other OP posted the URL link below. Does anyone have any solid information anout this news development? Has anyone heard the Ref 5 SE? Same rumor about an SE version of the Ref Phono 2?

http://artsexcellence-audioresearch.blogspot.com/2011/12/audio-research-reference-5-se.html
bifwynne

Showing 23 responses by bifwynne

Based on a conversation with Cal at ARC, the SE upgrade should cost $2500. I'm on the upgrade list and sure hope it's worth it.
Jonathan Valin Reports Upgrades to Legacy Units Possble:

Yesterday, I asked:

Hello Jonathan,

I own an ARC Ref 5, which I enjoy quite a bit. I've heard some very positive buzz in my hi-end audio community that the SE version is a significant step up. Your blog implies that that the Ref PH 2 and Ref 5 can be upgraded to SE grade. Is that your inference or did the ARC folks affirmatively state that to be the case in fact?

He later answered:

Both the linestage and the phonostage can be updated to SE versions. This is not an inference; it is (or soon will be) a fact. ARC's Warren Gehl gave me the scoop. As I said below, ARC will announce the upgrade program sometime around the start of the year. You will have to make an "appointment" to have your unit(s) serviced. I do not know how much ARC will charge for these upgrades.

FYI -- Happy Holidays and New Year!!
I wonder how long it will take for the upgrade. Did you get a chance to A/B the Ref 5 against the SE version? I'm sure the improvements are palable, but would sure appreciate reactions from folks who actually did a shoot-out. As I mentioned, I used to own the Ref 3. Yes, the Ref 5 is better in several ways, particularly in bass detail and neutrality, I guess some might say "air-i-ness." But to be honest, with the 5, it's like drinking a fine dry wine. The 3 is richer, less defined but more full bodied. I hope the SE upgrade will bring a little more life to the 5. It's like being married to a Stepford wife.
FYI: called ARC and put my name on the list for the SE upgrade. Cal said ARC will start working the upgrade list in late January. Cost TBD, but not cheap. The only concern I have is how much I will benefit from the upgrade in light of my source gear and amp. Take a look at my system. I'd appreciate any advice offered.
Well, a year later, my Ref 5 SE was just delv'd. I've got about 5 or 6 hours on it. ARC also changed out all of the 6H30 tubes too. I won't embarrass myself by sharing reactions yet. Chris Osanna said break-in should take 300 hours on upgraded units. I'll be back. Ok, just one comment -- the SE sounds different than the Ref 5. That it for now.
Jtimothya, fair comment. I have a feeling that RP2 units will start to hit the market after the RP2 SE is released. Cal told me that the Ref 5 is being discontinued and being replaced by the SE. I surmise the same with the RP2. Right now, the delta between the PH7 and RP2 is still pretty wide. Hopefully, the gap will close a bit when the SE hits the market.
Doggiehowser, did you get the upgrade of the Ref 5 or is this a new "out of the box" unit? Did you have the chance to A/B the Ref 5 to the SE?

I am unsure about getting my Ref 5 upgraded. I'm concerned the SE may be way out of balance with the rest of my system. Alternatively, if I was to drop the bucks of an SE upgrdae (whatever it is) into my system, I might do better waiting to change out my PH-7.

Just not sure?? Also not sure how long ARC will do the SE upgrade. Maybe for the indefinte future???

I'm standing pat on my amp. It's too close to the Ref 110 to change it out. If I change out the amp, it only makes sense to wait for Ref 150s to hit the pre-owned market. At this point, IMO, digital "redbook" CD (actual discs) is generally just fair, so I'm not motivated to change out my CD-7 CDP. Think I'd rather get a DAC 8 instead.

Any thoughts??

BTW, my system description is listed on A'gon.
Hey Missioncoonery: Based on a call with Calvin at ARC, I understand the Ref 5 will be discontinued, to be replaced with the Ref 5 SE. So, I guess you might say that the SE IS the Ref 6, at least for a while.
Darkstar, I spoke with Calvin today about the Ref 5 SE and he confirmed what Doggiehowser said. Yup - new face plate. I even asked Calvin if I could keep the old face-plate so my wife wouldn't catch the change. He said nothin' doin'. I guess I'll take my luck -- I've signed up. Should hear back from ARC by end of January/early February for the my upgrade. Calvin also mentioned that ARC will do the upgrade for an indefinite period of time. Point being that folks on the sideline don't have to rush to a decision -- at least that's what Calvin said.
Ok guys. I have about 300 hours on the Ref 5 SE. I guess it's run in by now. Here's my reactions FWIW.

Yeah, I think the SE version has a more refined sound presentation. Just sounds a bit smoother. Better bass and punchier -- probably because the power supply was doubled. Was it worth $2500? Sure, why not??? Is it a day and night difference?? A "whole nuther' league"?? I don't think so. Still has the ARC house sound.

Do I recommend getting the upgrade done? If you have the spare change . . . sure. If there's something else you're looking to do, and it's either option A or the SE upgrade, but not both, . . . tough call. I s'pose' it depends on what you have in mind.

Maybe I sound a bit reserved because I think I've reached the point of diminishing returns. I think I'd have to spend a heck of a lot more change to squeeze much more out of my current rig, e.g., change out my $7K ARC VS-115 amp for a $12K or $13K ARC Ref 150 amp, new speakers, and so forth.

Actually, I'm planning on auditioning a pair of Quattro Woods at a nearby Vandy dealer this week. The Quattros will be driven by an ARC VS-115 amp the dealer took in trade. I'll come back with some reactions for you Vandy fans. For some reason, I'm dubious that I'll get blown away.

I realize that some feel my Paradigm Sig. 8s are "mid-fi" speakers. Fact is that the Quattros and S8s cost about the same and Paradigm can pack a heck of a lot of R&D and QC into the S8s because of economies of scale and because they build pretty much everything in-house. That's all I'll say. Don't want to start another speaker war.

Cheers.
Thanks Djcxxx. Your comments kinda' substantiate my general reactions that at some point, there are diminishing returns.

I used to own the Ref 3 too. I had the same reactions as did you about the change from the Ref 3 to the Ref 5, and then again to the Ref 5 SE. By the way, for the benefit of those folks who own a Ref 3, let me assure you, IMO, it's still one heck of a great linestage. Sorta' makes me chuckle when I read that going from component A to component B will be a "day and night difference."

As I mentioned elsewhere, I may be going down upgrade alley again, but this time with speakers. Paradigm S8s to Vandy Quattro Woods, maybe?? Reason: I have agita that the S8s may not be a good electrical match for my ARC tube amp.

The dealer will drive the Vandies with the same ARC tube amp that I own. Now that will be an interesting audition.
Thanks for that info Dbarger. I will absolutely keep an open mind and look forward to even better listening. Btw, ARC told me that upgraded Ref 5s should take only 300 hours to break in. I think real-time experiences like yours are helpful to know.

Very good question Phil. Perhaps Dbarger will illuminate us. Here's a 10,000 foot response at 350 hours. I think the changes ARE occurring but are very subtle. That's why it's hard for me to be more specific.

But I can say this. The natural synergy that exists between the Ref 5 SE and my other ARC components cannot be overstated. I really enjoy listening to the music, especially when working at home. Just pop in a CD and listen to Mile Davis jazz -- heaven.

As an aside, on the one hand, I have gained immeasurably from reading the OPs on the Forum. But OTOH, on occassion, the "techno-speak" causes me to listen to the gear and NOT the music.

Just recently, I have been obsessing about amp and speaker compatibility. After having auditioned a pair of Vandies and my S8s -- no more. I'm doing just fine as is. I'm just going to listen to the music and settle down. My problem is that I am a frustrated EE audio equipment designer and just plain too dumb to be a EE audio equipment audio designer.

Sorry Ralph (Atmasphere). I would have loved to work at your company in a zero negative feedback environment. Just not smart enough. And too, I've come to hate odd-numbered harmonic distortion. I'd drive both of us crazy.

Cheers ;>)
Dbarger, I think I will stand corrected. I pulled out some LPs I haven't listened to in a while and I think there really may be a real difference. Btw, I also correct myself re the hours. It's only 285 right now. So, the Ref 5 SE is still breaking in.

In any case, I think your comment that the Ref 5 seems to "breathe [more] freely" is well put. More open and transparent. Tighter and more focused imaging and wider 3-D sound stage than before. Actually quite impressive.

I'm listening to an old London Phase 4 LP where Leo Stowkoski is conducting the London Symphony Orchestra, playing a lot of his old standards like Night on Bald Mountain, Ride of the Valkyries, etc. Wow -- I can almost see each instrument.

I may be a believer yet. I'll report back in a couple hundred hours or so. Cheers.
Dbarger, sorry to come back so soon, but I pulled out my old Miles Davis CD, Kind of Blue. I am not BS'ing when I tell you that I can "see" where the trumpet and piano are in 3-D space. Even more -- almost the piano keyboard. Not bad for my "mid-fi" speakers. Enough .... I'll be back later.
Mitch . . . as I have already said and I repeat myself for emphasis sake, as a previous owner of a Ref 3, the Ref 3 will go down as a clssic line stage, it's just that good. I wouldn't stress myself about it.

I figure the cost to upgrade to a new Ref 5 SE will be about $7+ thousand (i.e., about $12K [assuming discount], less $5K to sell used Ref 3). It's one thing to go from a Ref 5 to the SE for about $2500. IMO, it's a whole 'nuther ball game to jump from a Ref 3 to the Ref 5 SE for $7+ thousand.
Hearing some more changes. The soundstage seems to have moved back and it's now about 2 feet behind the speakers. The speakers have largely disappeared. The center stage is filling in with more detail. Imaging is improving. Mid-range and treble smoothing out. I'll report back again if any more changes. Just turned my sub woofer gain up a notch to see if bass blends with the improving soundstage and I think it does.

My source is an EMI Classic CD of Tchaikovsky regulars, Mariss Jansons conducting the Oslo and London Philharmonic Orchestras. Playing 1812 Overture. Gotta go and turn down the gain before the cannons kick in or my wife will throw a bucket of water on my rig. ;>')
I don't recall. At this point, I think the whole presentation is quite impressive. Just curious, what's the input impedance of your amp? Is your Ref 5 SE driving anything else like a sub woofer? As an fyi, most ARC line stages, incl the Ref 5, should not be driving a combined load of less than 20K ohms.
@ Phil -- could be. Search the Forum for my posts regarding a custom impedance buffer that was made for me to resolve this issue. The formula to compute combined impedance is: The product of Main 1 feed imp. x Main 2 feed imp, divided by the sum Main 1 feed imp + Main 2 feed imp. In my case, Main 1 feeds my VS-115 which has an input impedance of 300K ohms and Main 2 feed the customer impedance buffer which has an input impedance of 330K ohms. If you do the math, the combined impedance is 157K ohms. Run your calcs and report back.
Phil, stay all ARC. The synergy is worth it. Call Tom ASAP. Not only did his buffer increase the impedance shown of the sub woofer, his device even summed the left and right channels without shorting out the Ref 5's Mains. So, my single sub woofer is mono below 50 ot 60 Hz, and shows my Ref 5 a 330K ohm load. Tom charged me only $500 for the device, which is built like a tank. It's an active device that plugs into the wall. If Tom was to build a device for you that had an input impedance that matched the Ref 250s (200K ohms), your combined impedance would be 100K ohms, which is plenty.
Memorial Day Update on Ref 5SE: Have over 650 hours logged on the Ref 5, although much is idle time hours. I think the Ref 5 is probably broken in by now. It really sings. Very sweet pre-amp. Btw, a major change from an unexpected source. Just replaced the 6H30 driver tubes on my ARC VS-115 amp. Wow! Together, what a combo. Just love mny ARC stuff!