Audio Furniture has its own sound!


I've been using a stand that I made about 12 years ago.  It's a flexi-type, with large rods, and I cut chrome curtain rods to cover the threaded rods.  For shelves, I glued two pieces of MDF together, routed the edges, and painted with stone paint.  Looks great, and it's really heavy and sturdy.  But, I got a little tired of the look.  I do think there is sound to furniture if it vibrates, but solid is solid, right?

So, I found a used Salamander Chameleon Sonoma 326.  It matches the other furniture perfectly, looks great in the room, and has a perfect amount of storage.  And, room on top for the turntable, as well as the Primaluna HP.  Makes it look like simple and elegant system.  The Salamander is very heavy, and made from solid wood. 

But, when I hooked it up, that damn Salamander rings like a bell, and that energy totally transfers to the tonearm.  I could not believe how horrible the system now sounded!  Clearly the furniture was the problem.  It was immediate, and completely ruined the sound.   I think part of the issue is that it has a metal frame beneath the wood, and the sides seem to cause the metal frame to vibrate and ring.

Now, I'm on an adventure to see if I can fix it.  My plan is 2 inch thick maple platform with vibrapods under the platform.  A platform for the amp, a separate one for the TT, and vibrapods under the phono preamp.  I have used an old tabletop from Ikea (it's honeycomb inside, and good dampener) with rubber feet, and it's helped a lot.  But, I can still tell this vibrates slightly.  I don't think it transfers much to the tonearm, but I'm still getting the maple platform.

I'm posting this because I've done some research oil Salamander as a TT stand, but didn't find much.  So, now you know... buyer beware!


Cffbf6c9 f8d7 4a15 a0e9 71403e29fbd6soundermn
Pay attention to the coupling of the stand to the floor. The smaller you can make that footprint, and the less rigidly it is coupled the better.
Maple under the turntable is a good idea.  Vibrapod pucks could help, might try Vibrapod cones.  That also applies to the corners of your electronics.  That's been my experience.    

I've also used metal cones with good success.  Got some of them from Adona, other cones from Parts Express.  They look to be the same.   

I've used original StillPoints cones under my turntable with very good results.  They are still in place.

Some people I know have used bamboo coasters (like under drink glasses) under the corners of electronic components.  
You might want to consider Acoustic Symposium roller blocks and if you have enough money upgrade to the Superballs their a substantial Improvement. All the best
I have vibrapods and the matching cones on order.  Hope they show up soon!
Illusions are real!

(just having a little fun, so don't take it seriously)
You might try the gingko cloud. 
You might try the gingko cloud. 
I've been using these for 20 + years.
https://www.parts-express.com/sanus-afab-33-tall-tv-av-stand--240-8600?gclid=Cj0KCQiAqNPyBRCjARIsAKA...
I don't know if these inexpensive racks deter from my gear sounding their best, but they do the job, and looks presentable.

They have had many iterations of systems on the shelves. I have 2 side by side. 1 holds sources, the other- amps/PS Audio  regen.

On the source rack, the top shelf holds the table, which is sitting on a 4" maple slab, and that rests on those Mapleshade pads. This low tech  setup,  is surprising "forgiving"  I also have hardwood floors, and no foot fall issues.

If I ever go BIG$$$ on new gear, I guess I will splurge on the Solid Steel racks.
Look up Mapleshade Samson racks. 2” thick maple platforms.
1+ Mapleshade

I use the 2” cured maple platforms, save for the 4” under the TT.  Have the 3-point Heavy Feet between each component and maple platform.  Though the claims made on their website regarding the Samson racks (as well as the Heavy Feet, Isoblocks, Sil-Clear, and component weights (haven’t tried the ICs or PCs as they look rather fragile)) may ring of hyperbole, they have proven (to me) to be true.  You may consider trying one of their maple platforms coupled with the Heavy Feet and 4 Isoblocks under your TT to help you determine whether the Salamander is “salvageable” or it would be best to move on.

I had understood the Salamander products to be rather well-regarded.  It’s unfortunate that you have found that not to be the case.  I hope that you can soon enjoy your music again.
Designed and made my metal racks for Luxman PD-444 (i have two), genuine turntable footers are suspended, metal rack filled with sand, stands on 4 adjustable spikes. Luxman is superheavy turntable with metal cabinet. No issues!

Over 20 years ago i designed this table (custom made), also metal filled with sand, Technics SP-10 mkII on it, no issues.

I have no idea what you’re talking about.
Speaking of furniture quite a bit of Pop! in the sound can be obtained by sticking cones under heavy furniture in the room. Yes, I know what you’re thinking: are you out of mind?
I also thought of Salamander as being a great product. It may be because it’s double wide, not sure.  I’ve ordered a maple platform and vibrant pods and cones. If those don’t fix it, I’ll go back to the homemade stand.  I guess it turns out that my own engineering was pretty good!  
An isolated turntable like a SOTA, SME, Basis or Air Force does not care what you put it on. It will always sound the same. Not that any stand a turntable is on should not be a sturdy as possible. 
Agree that a maple platform with vibration damping feet underneath it will probably improve your situation. However, I have found that sandbox isolation is even better with my Acoustic Signature non suspended table. The maple platform has a sound of its own with pleasant resonances. The sandbox is more neutral and lets one hear deeper into the mix with a considerably greater sense of environmental isolation vis a vis the maple platform. I have used both 2" and 4" maple platforms and the sandbox is superior to both in my system. My previous rack was a Billy Bags Pro and I'm currently using a Solid Steel 5.4. http://http//cognitivevent.com/sandbox.html
" An isolated turntable like a SOTA, SME, Basis or Air Force does not care what you put it on. It will always sound the same. Not that any stand a turntable is on should not be a sturdy as possible."

That has not been my experience in the past (albeit with a Michell Gyrodec.)

For what it’s worth my suggestion for shelf material would be baltic birch as opposed to maple. IMO it is more neutral sounding and the constrained layer formation in the baltic birch should technically be more effective (and is in my experience) in dealing with/reducing vibration to the component. It’s also very economical.

For support or footers, general rule of thumb will be that a harder footer will result in a harder, more aggressive sound while a softer footer will result in a softer sound.

Obviously there are some very pricey audiophile support devices, platforms out there (Gaia, Stillpoints, HRS etc).

At more economical price points, baltic birch shelving combined with some of the Herbie’s Audiolab isolation products (I would contact Herbie’s with questions and ask them their opinion on what they have that would be most suitable in your application) can be very effective.

Edit: Photon was posting at the same time. I have no experience with sand boxes but I would describe the difference between baltic birch and maple as being similar to how he described the difference between the sand box and maple. 

I posted my experience so that others who wonder about this topic would have something to consider.  If I listen to you crazies, this is what I should do:
- $650 for aluminum balls under a platform
- $400 for a 4 inch maple platform
- Or $750 for the Gingko Cloud (looks interesting, actually)
- another $650 for aluminum balls under the stand
- $1500+ for a SOTA turntable
- engineer my own stand that is heavy and works well.  Oh, wait, already did that!  

LOL.  I'm going to try the maple platform and vibrapod setup.  If that doesn't work, I will go back to my own rack and call it a day.  I can sell the Salamander for the $400 I paid.  I bought it because I like how it looks... but if it kills the sound, it's gotta go.  I can't invest $1000 to fix a $400 stand.

You guys are just trying to make me spend my money!  :-)
The resonant frequencies Fr of the platter, tonearm and cartridge are all circa 8-12 Hz, so they get excited by, you guessed it! - very low frequency seismic type vibration coming up from the floor that interfere with the audio signal. So, you need something under the table - an iso system - with a very low resonant frequency, say around 2 Hz, to be able to significantly attenuate the frequencies 8-12 Hz since the iso device acts as a 6 dB/octave filter. Hel-loo!
Geoffkait makes an important point. One of the last instructions for the sandbox construction is to make sure that supporting feet have a very low resonant frequency so that the whole affair oscillates at 1-3 cycles per second. Rather than using racquetballs as the author of the "how-to" suggests, I experimented with various durometers of silicone to get  squishy feet I could cast with the same characteristics. 
So you post a problem,  people respond with their answers and you label them as the ones that are crazy. Just sayin
@tooblue Actually, I didn't post a "problem" and I wasn't asking for solutions.  I was sharing an experience, and my plan to deal with it.  People chimed in with hundreds/thousands of dollars in "fixing it".  Fact is, we are all crazy in this hobby.  But, my intended solution is $60 in vibrapods and cones, and a nice $60 2 inch maple platform sourced locally.

@geoffkait While I understand that the Salamander will still resonate, my floor is carpet over concrete.  The floor doesn't resonate.  But, I have ordered an isolation platform for the TT, as well as the other gear.  I'm just not spending $750 on each of those platforms.

@photon46 I think you, me and @hdm were all typing at the same time. I hear you, and it makes sense.  But, I think that if I have to go to that much effort to fix a resonance in the stand, then I'm using the wrong stand. Especially considering I have one (less aesthetically pleasing) that works without so much effort.
So your cabinet wasn't ringing and you weren't seeking a fix, boy did I read that one wrong. Enjoy the music
Congratulations on your experiments. I had a Flexy with single-layer MDF and did not realize how bad it sounded until I changed to an Ikea Lack table as suggested a long time ago by a gentlemen who home-made for sale his own shelves. My take is the decreased weight and increased rigidity of the lack shifted the frequency modulation higher, eliminating the muddy bass. My Finite Elemente rack is similar in theory and in sound as the Lack. During that experience both home made shelf units the sense of sturdiness and weight of the racks in various iterations really had nothing to do with how good they sounded. 

I went down the vibration management rabbit hole a few years ago, doing my own casual study through physics and industrial online stuff. The marketing of of audio retail vibration management products has been generally uneducational. With some exceptions, companies fail to explain how the products work, especially over the entire frequency spectrum.  
Recently I managed to get a solid piece of white marble, about an inch thick from a place that makes kitchen benches etc. They told me they often have offcuts and cutouts from the materials they use. It was very inexpensive to have them cut it to size and polish the edge for me.

I then used springs, coil springs, just like the ones an AGon seller was offering on this site. Mine were purchased when I was living overseas and are rated at 4Hz with a mass that loads them at about 50% of original height.

Metal springs are still one of the best vibration isolators, and also one of the most cost effective.
All good answers above, but I think that the core problem has not been properly diagnosed. If your rack is resonating then you need to reduce the amount of energy the rack (and your turntable) are exposed to.  I'm guessing is that your rack is in between your speakers? Try moving the rack forward (away from the wall) and/or relocate the rack to one side of one speaker by at least 2'-3'. And you may try putting something absorbent on top of the shelf where the turntable sits, under the feet. Reflective surfaces can bounce low frequency energy to the TT and tonearm.

rixthetrick
I then used springs, coil springs, just like the ones an AGon seller was offering on this site. Mine were purchased when I was living overseas and are rated at 4Hz with a mass that loads them at about 50% of original height.

Metal springs are still one of the best vibration isolators, and also one of the most cost effective.

>>>>Hire this man!
br3098
Reflective surfaces can bounce low frequency energy to the TT and tonearm.

>>>By the grace of god there isn’t any energy flying around that is low enough in frequency to affect the turntable and tonearm, which are designed to have resonant frequencies Fr much lower ⬇️ than any frequency speakers produce.
hdm, the Michell Gyrodec is not an isolated turntable. An fully isolated turntable will have a suspension, spring or air tuned to 2-3 Hz. Nothing gets through from 2 Hz down. On a wooded floor I can jump up and down in front of an SME or SOTA and nothing will happen even if I put the turntables on collapsible card tables. 
Having said that. The ultimate platform for an unsuspended turntable would be a 2" thick aluminum plate on leaf dampened leaf springs tune at 2-3 Hz. Getting the plate is not a problem. Any metal supply company can provide that. Then you can have it anodized any color you want. The right springs will require some experimentation. I would stare on the stiff side and work my way down. The springs can be dampened with foam or you could even construct an oil based shock absorber  like SME does. 
If your system is on a concrete floor you can just place the Aluminum plate on any decent stand using rubber grommets under.  
There are many solutions invented by professionals to isolate turntables used near huge 20 000+ WATT Sound Systems and a crowd of 5 000 people jumping and dancing around.

I have no idea why someone in a small living room need anything like that with 10 WATT speakers and only a few people in the room sitting in the chairs and listening to vinyl ? Anyone can explain me what are you trying to isolate and why, what for ? Just a good heavy rack, some cones or spikes and a turntable in a nice plinth is not enough ? Are you living on volcano or something like that?  
@br3098 Thanks, but no the TT is not between speakers.  I've read the books, and have placed it off to the side.  I think the energy comes into it because I use two REL subs to shore up the bass.  And, that seems to affect the wood sides of the cabinet.

I am fairly confident that it will be resolved when I add vibrapods and cones with the maple platform.
>>>By the grace of god there isn’t any energy flying around that is low enough in frequency to affect the turntable and tonearm, which are designed to have resonant frequencies Fr much lower ⬇️ than any frequency speakers produce.
Geoff, I think you are mistaking acoustic resonance for mechanical resonance. Turntable and tonearms are measured for mechanical resonance: the tendancy for the lever (tonearm) to resonate, depending on several factors including length, construction material, etc. How can a tonearm manufacturer possibly know how much acoustic energy is going to be generated by every system?

No, I’m not. They’re both mechanical. F=ma 🤗
But for grins... put your TT ( even the mighty Fletcher designed SOTA ) in another room and you will be astounded....


F is the Mother of Aggravation   
But since we are in low cost solution space, did the OP try drilling and filling the metal components of stand frame with sand or lead shot ? 
everything affects the sound.
Isolation kills two birds with one stone. The seismic type energy AND the acoustic energy. It’s TWO, TWO MINTS IN ONE. Oh, I get it, nobody’s seen the Max Townshend YouTube video.
@tomic601 Salamander racks don't have hollow tube frames.
Blue tape, epoxy, sand, fill in those extruded Chanel’s.....
Hey Geoff, I'm sure that your simplistic view of the universe is your path to wa.  Not poking fun, just jealous.
the cheapest fix would be some dynamat xtreme placed on the bottom of the shelf will dampen it from ringing  and you won't see it
Dynamat is used in car to do just that
Too bad about the Salamander Cameleon. I have a Salamander Synergy rack w/ individual shelves for each component and the sound is superior to a Sanus rack w/ 3/4" veneered shelves.
tomstruck
the cheapest fix would be some dynamat xtreme placed on the bottom of the shelf will dampen it from ringing and you won’t see it
Dynamat is used in car to do just that

>>>>I suspect cars have more of a shock and vibration problem than home audio shelves. If the shelf rings, which it probably won’t, when you strike it with a hammer don’t strike it with a hammer while music’s playing. 
Just curious how weak must be turntable itself if for use anyone need  some crazy isolation devices. Proper turntables already isolated in its plinth and on its feet, a healthy people need just stable wooden or stone platform or just a nice metal rack for home use. In some people's imagination everything ringing ... can't help it. I think it's mental. Why not just enjoy the music with a nice turntable ? Room treatment is far more important  
Think of seismic vibration like Coronavirus, you can’t see it, you can’t detect it, but it’s toxic. However strong you make the turntable the Earth is stronger. 🏋🏻‍♂️ The pump don’t work cause the vandals took the handles.
"seismic vibration"?  I'm not talking about vibration that causes books to fall off the shelf and the TT to slide across the rack.
I’m not talking about earthquakes. I’m talking about the low level everyday motion of the Earth crust, traffic, subways, etc. It’s enough to excite the tonearm and cartridge which carry very low level signals and have natural frequencies Fr in range of 8-12 Hz. So it doesn’t take much. Seismic type vibration is in the range 0-30 Hz and even higher. So, there you go!