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Attention Scientists, Engineers and Na-s

Isn't it funny how timing works. With all the different discussions on proving this, show me fact on that and the psycho acoustical potential of the other thing an article comes along with the same topics and some REAL potential answers. I received my newest copy of "The Audiophile Voice" Vol.7, Issue1 today and on page 16 is an article written by David Blair and Bill Eisen titled "In The Matter Of Noise". The article focuses on disturbance noise but has some reference to thermal noise, low frequency noise and shot noise, and our ability to measure these noises with the equipment of today. We have measured noise as low as 6x10 to the power of -5, or approximately a few cycles per day. We have also found through laboratory testing that the human brain is stimulated with frequencies from just above 0Hz to just below 50kHz. U.S. Department of Defense documents also show studies of low frequency activity below measurable levels and there various affects.
The article then begins to talk about out of band (hearing) noise and in band noise produced by our electronic equipment and the potential of these noises effecting our sound system. The assumptions are that "disturbance noises rob our systems of dynamics, low-level information, tonal purity and stage depth". These effects are for the most part overlooked and misunderstood by the scientific communities. They say they think that our speakers being hit with "massive quantities of R.F.I. are affected" A very good quote referring to power filters was "Effective noise control imposes no sonic tradeoffs or downside." How often have the discussions here on Audiogon focused on what they are doing? A very interesting comment was that Teflon is capable of carrying 40-Kilovolts static charge, and the industry is touting this as a great insulator for audio signals, that's scarey!
Now I bring this to light because I believe the view of the "Scientists and Engineers" here on Audiogon is so narrow that they are failing to see the exciting challenges in front of them. If all these noises do exist, which they do, and they can be transmitted and received through our systems, isn't possible, just maybe feasible that the insulation of our wires, the casing of our dedicated lines the size and shape of the conductor could, just maybe effect the sound? Isn't it even possible that forces set off by electrical components could be interfering in some so far unmeasured and inaudible way affecting the sound. Do you all test within the full spectrum of 0Hz to 50Khz for every possible situation? Or is it possible, just ever so small of a chance that you are overlooking a whole new science yet unexplored. Doesn't that, even slightly excite your little scientific fossils?
Man if I was younger, healthier and wanted a challenge. This is a career if you'd just climb out from behind you oscilloscopes and spectrum analyzer and see the world is indeed still spinning, and yes, it is 2001. Remember how 30 years ago 2001 was going to be so exciting. What the hell have the Scientist, Engineers and Na-sayers who tote there stuff here on Audiogon done for the advancement of science. Anyone, have any of you really broken through! J.D.
128x128jadem6
70242241e18c
81 posts
 
Garfish: Why do you say I don't trust my senses? That's either an irrational assumption or a deliberate distortion of what I've ben saying. I've been saying that you should use your ears, but in a way that eliminates prejudices and biases, however subconscious they are, so that you judge solely on what is audible.

If that makes me a "non-believer," I'll accept that label.
70242241e18c
81 posts
 
Detlof: And I'm saying there are ways to find out if something really is "there" or not.

I'm out to enjoy music and audio, too, but it doesn't mean I want to waste lots of money on something that doesn't add anything.
70242241e18c
81 posts
 
Philiphans: If it gives you great pleasure to buy exotic cables, go ahead. It's a free country, free markets, etc. I prefer to spend money on what I have a reasonable expectation would add performance and am therefore skeptical of spectacular claims that have no technical, scientific, common-sense backup. Or even any empirical data to back up the claims.

Show me a system that sounds superb with exotic cabling (PCs, ICs, speaker wire), and I'm certain that I or anyone else can make it sound equally superb with stock and low-cost cabling.

And with the money saved I can go to concerts, buy CDs, buy an occasional new musical instrument, etc. And go skiing, travelling, etc.

You're right that you don't need to know the technical aspects of audio to enjoy it at least up to a certain level, but I've found that studying and working with and developing audio technology over the past 20+ years has helped me enjoy it more, and given me a very enjoyable career at the same time. Your mileage may vary.
detlof
1,899 posts
 
702....the biases you speak of do exist and indeed I often worry if what I think I am hearing is perhaps nothing but wishful thinking. So if the oppportunity arises, I will try put my hearing to the test. On the other hand I beg you to consider, that biases unconsciously may also work the other way in the sense, that differences which truly do exist are either simply not percieved or an experimental set up is made such, that the outcome leans heavily towards a preconcieved model. All this does not prove that "you" are wrong and "we" are right, all I am trying to say is, that I have doubts towards "science" when it becomes absolute, just as I would naturally doubt the hype, advertisements about wires abound in. Contrary to your stand, I think I can hear differences between ordinary and "exotic" cables, but I am all with you in your "crusade" for scepticism, because this field especially abounds in snakeoil, hype and mark ups which are nothing but indecent. Again, on the other hand, you see, I find it just as indecent, when some cable manufacturers, with serious academic backgrounds, who truly have advanced the state of the art, are put down as simple charlatans by the " measuring crowd ".
philiphansg0cc4
6 posts
 
702, your right to say the money saved could find better use elsewhere. Neither do I agree exotic cables should be priced so ridiculously high, that's why I always bought them used.
A stock powercord will have reached the point of diminished returns (pdr) when we cannot determine any more differences (sonically) between the standard coppers and PVCs used in its construction. Audiophiles who have exceptional hearing acuity are able to squeeze that last few percent beyond pdr. I can't prove it to you myself, but Seymour Shlien of Communications Research Centre, Ottawa, ON, Canada K2H 8S2 published a scientific paper "Auditory Models for Gifted Listeners" in the Audio Engineering Society Nov 2000 journal. If I may quote from the abstract: He wrote, "Some listeners are especially sensitive to minute codec quantization noise. Various pyschoacoustic tests were performed in order to measure the characteristics of these listeners. Though the auditory filter bandwidths of these listeners appeared to be normal, some had unusual abilities to detect weak signals buried in noise."
Please try to get hold of this very good publication for your scientific reference.
Coming back to our powercord. 702 may i suggest to you a very simple DIY experiment costing a few $. Prepare a pc from ordinary cable double the conductor size of your present powercord to your poweramp and try it out. Please post whether you can hear any difference. Regards.
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