Atlantic City casinos closing...

"When I asked my insurance agent why mine was so much lower, it was due to my high credit rating."

He was just saying that because it was the first thing he thought of. There's so many factors that go into a decision like that, he can't possibly know them all right off the top of his head. Remember, people that sell insurance are still sales people. Most sales people will lie for any number of reasons. Its unfortunate, but that's how it works.

Trelja,
I am in Central N.J.
I grew up in Freehold.
I lived the life Springsteen sang about in his song "My Hometown".
I started in manufacturing in 1981 as a Quality Control Inspector. It took 12 more years until the plant closed. I was at my next position for another 12 years until that company was sold. Since then I have been laid off numerous times due to layoffs, employee reductions in the work force and jobs being sent overseas.
The economy has not been kind to the manufacturing industry in America.
I am a Quality Assurance Inspector by trade, this is what I do. Tomorrow is my 58th birthday and I've had some of the hardest times in my life for last 16 months. Is this all my fault? Younger untrained people willing to work for much less then me, competition from other people in the same boat as me.
My new position pays less then my last one and I am forced to work the grave yard shift but that's life. Not the life I had hoped for in this stage of the game but at least I can start getting out of debt.
I do not resent success and the pleasure it brings, I like my toys like most of us but it shouldn't be so god damned hard.

With a level playing field, one can have just as good a chance to make it as anyone else. Show me that level playing field. It's never existed and probably never will.

Anyone born into poverty has a greater than 60% chance of staying there, despite attempts to raise oneself. Anyone born into wealth has a better than 60% chance of staying there despite any self destructive attempts to ruin that chance.

What you're born into goes a long way to how you're perceived and accepted. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule but ....

Our economy can turn around rather quickly making this discussion moot as our problems are one of policy and not the result of natural events.

Were it only so.

All the best,
Nonoise

Zd542, There's something I'd like to point out with regard to your blaming the poor for being poor as a result of bad decision making and not taking enough personal responsibility. Most of us contributing to this thread probably made some bone headed decisions when young but we had an internal moral compass and personal examples of what it took to succeed to guide us. Our parents, teachers, and community imbued those values in us from the time we were young. Those examples helped guide us as we grew up and gained life experience. Most of the poor never gain the advantage of positive examples and life lessons because their of crappy luck at birth.

My wife was an elementary school teacher for 39 years and believe me, she saw the full gamut of parenting and child rearing skills in our society. We are not born with the innate inborn skills needed to help us negotiate the social and financial minefields that proliferate in our society. If a kid grows up with no positive role models and no direct familial/societal pressures to succeed and evolve upwardly, no amount of government largess or standardized school testing and pressure is going to change the life trajectories of most people. That said, does that mean that we should abandon all hope and stop trying to save the few that CAN rise above their poor circumstances of birth?

Much of my work is at the other side of the educational spectrum with college students. Believe me, I see plenty of students who are the first ones in their families to go to college and they ARE rising above it all and they will stop perpetuating their family's cycle of poverty. Without the programs you say "aren't working," there would be many thousands of college students without the opportunity to change their lives. No doubt you are correct that we spend billions on social programs with inadequate outcomes. However, if we abandon efforts to help the poor and wash our hands of responsibility for them, we'll have a society with attributes of those in South and Central America eventually. Those with good jobs and adequate livelihood will live in armed compounds with private security and the rest will live in a world like the favelas of Rio and Sao Paulo.

What's the answer to our societal problems and how do we improve outcomes of the programs we spend billions on? I wish I knew. I only know both sides of the political spectrum in the US seem like the blind men feeling one part of the elephant and thinking they have the whole picture.

It's nice to see a civil discussion here. There is, however, one meme that I have to slay and that is the "billions" we spend on the poor. It sounds like a lot but compared to what?

Someone, somewhere went and did the math for an average person who made $50,000/year and what the breakdown on taxes are. I think most will be in for a bit of shock, but here goes:

$347 a year for defense
$3.98 a year for disaster relief (FEMA)
$22.98 a year for unemployment insurance
$36.82 a year for SNAP (food stamps)-about a dime a day
$6.96 a year for welfare
$43.78 a year for retirement & disability to gov. workers (civilian & military)
$235.81 a year for Medicare
$4,000 a year for corporate subsidies.
Are you sure you're pissed off at the right people?

All the best,
Nonoise

Photon46,

Reading through your last post, I wont say I agree with every single word, but there's very little I disagree with. I think found disagreement when some of the other posts portrayed an overly dismal situation for the poor. Sort of like, poor people are doomed and there is very little they can do about it. I know they didn't mean that literally, but I think the picture was a little too dark. Also, you do a better job of classifying the different types of poor people. Someone born into poverty and not receiving a proper upbringing by their parents, will probably be at more of a disadvantage than someone like me, who was only poor for a short while.

"That said, does that mean that we should abandon all hope and stop trying to save the few that CAN rise above their poor circumstances of birth?"

I never said that. But I do feel that you can help too much.

"Much of my work is at the other side of the educational spectrum with college students. Believe me, I see plenty of students who are the first ones in their families to go to college and they ARE rising above it all and they will stop perpetuating their family's cycle of poverty. Without the programs you say "aren't working," there would be many thousands of college students without the opportunity to change their lives. No doubt you are correct that we spend billions on social programs with inadequate outcomes. "

Just to clarify, I wasn't talking about college loans and grants. I should have been more clear. Loans for school are great programs. I put myself through school with a Stafford loan. The only big problem I see with loans is not the students, but the schools themselves. All these new vocational type schools popping up with ultra high tuition costs, are doing a lot of damage. 6 month programs that cost about 15k and credits that don't transfer.

"07-23-14: Nonoise
It's nice to see a civil discussion here. There is, however, one meme that I have to slay and that is the "billions" we spend on the poor. It sounds like a lot but compared to what?"

You're absolutely right. We're spending trillions in other areas. Personally, though, I really don't like doing these type of comparative analyses. Each problem needs to be dealt with, not in comparison with different issues, but on their own merits. If we have to look at social programs in billions, then that's what it is. If defense spending is in trillions, then we have to look at it on that scale. Diverting money from one problem to the other won't fix anything. Good planning and oversight (if that's even possible) are how to deal with these problems.

"Are you sure you're pissed off at the right people?"

I find that people are usually more pissed off at me, as opposed to me being pissed at them. I have no idea why.

Zd542, thanks for that last sentence: I needed to laugh.

All the best,
Nonoise

Zd542, It is all too easy to feel the poor are doomed when we look at the numbers. The older I've gotten, the more I think we all give ourselves too much credit for our accomplishments in life. By that I mean that the vast majority of humans just live out their lives in the same patterns they were taught and exposed to in their formative years. Yes, I went to college, made good grades, worked hard at jobs that weren't ideal when I was younger, and worked my way up the ladder of prosperity as I got older. However, I had a road map of how to do it by cultural example and I'm an Anglo white male that's part of a group with a lot of advantages built in by luck of birth.

I once worked with a man who was born into a wealthy family and he married a daughter of one of the wealthiest and most influential business leaders in our part of the country. He quit working in the business we were in at the time and devoted himself full time to managing his wife's money right at the time the stock market was entering a prolonged bull run (he had training as a broker.) A monkey throwing darts at the financial page NASDAQ listings could make winning decisions in that environment. One day years later when our paths crossed again he remarked with great pride at how well he'd done and how hard he'd worked. When I mentioned that he might take solace in his good fortune in life, he became angry and vehemently denied that family, luck of birth, and good fortune played any role in his lot in life. I just let it go because you're obviously not going to change someone's world view in an argument like that. While an extreme example, I think that type of thinking is very prevalent among those who've done well in the world.

There are definitely those who rise above their lot in life and become successful, but our society is in a downward spiral because so few can or make the effort to do so.

I do completely agree with you about "for profit" universities and it will be interesting to see if we can come up with a way to rein in their predatory practices.

"I once worked with a man who was born into a wealthy family and he married a daughter of one of the wealthiest and most influential business leaders in our part of the country. He quit working in the business we were in at the time and devoted himself full time to managing his wife's money right at the time the stock market was entering a prolonged bull run (he had training as a broker.) A monkey throwing darts at the financial page NASDAQ listings could make winning decisions in that environment. One day years later when our paths crossed again he remarked with great pride at how well he'd done and how hard he'd worked. When I mentioned that he might take solace in his good fortune in life, he became angry and vehemently denied that family, luck of birth, and good fortune played any role in his lot in life."

Are you still in contact with that guy? I'd really like to talk to him and see how he did it. lol. I don't know if you've ever tried to trade like that for a living, but I can tell you its not easy. He could have gotten lucky, but its far more likely he worked very hard.

"When I mentioned that he might take solace in his good fortune in life, he became angry and vehemently denied that family, luck of birth, and good fortune played any role in his lot in life. I just let it go because you're obviously not going to change someone's world view in an argument like that."

I do understand what you are trying to say in all this, but have another look at the last sentence. How do you know you were right to begin with? Yes, he could have gotten lucky or he could have worked very hard, who knows? I know you weren't trying to offend the guy but when you say: "I just let it go because you're obviously not going to change someone's world view in an argument like that.", I can see where he may have gotten mad. How would you react if he tried to change your world view? You would probably say something like what he said to you.

"I do completely agree with you about "for profit" universities and it will be interesting to see if we can come up with a way to rein in their predatory practices."

I just wanted to clarify what type of school I was talking about. I'm not against a college just because it's for profit. I went to a regular 4 year college that was in business to make a profit. Many people go to schools like that and they're not being ripped off. The schools I'm talking about are called loan mills. These type of schools target people that don't have any type of education above high school. The tuition is based solely on the maximum amount of loans and grants that are available to your average person. They promise the students high paying jobs after graduation, but in the end, its all a bunch of crap. If you are looking for a good example of how the poor are being taken advantage of, this is it. These schools are not only loading people up with debt that they probably will never be able to repay, but the tax payers are taking a huge hit, as well.

The taxpayers are taking a huge hit indeed. About 90% of funding for these mills comes from the government (us taxpayers). They help bundle and source contributions for politicians who become indebted (just like the world's oldest profession) so laws, regulations and investigations become sort of lax, to put it mildly.

University of Phoenix, Kaplan, Everest, Westech, Potomac, Anthem, Westwood, ATI, ITT, Argosy, Bennett, Corinthian, Ashford, DeVry, heck even Harvard (online) are just some of the ones under investigation.

As of now, student debt surpasses credit card debt (somewhere over $1.3 trillion dollars) and efforts to get student loan rates close to the borrowing rate (less than 1%) have been rebuffed by those very same politicians who rely on those sacred institutions to help finance their personal fortunes. Call me cynical, but I see no reason why the government should make billions on student loan interest payments on the backs of students.

Right now, those colleges are doing their best to head off legislation that ties their right to do business to their job placement ability. A small price to pay for what they boast about but fail to do.

All of this is just another con in a long line of cons (remember Enron?) Instead of using taxpayer money to front these thieves, why not use it where it already had proven to work: community colleges?

Our public schools are next. Imagine using taxpayer money to enrich owners of charter schools who perform no better than public schools. Anyone here ready to pony up $10,000 to $30,000 a semester just to see your kid through Jr. and Sr. High? Trust me when I say they've been eyeing this for a long, long time.

All the best,
Nonoise

Thank you for your reply, Dreadhead. You deserve a lot of credit for putting your head down, and trying to put things back on track.

The Quality Assurance background provides you with some great experience. Have you considered Six Sigma or software QA? A person like you could make the transition into one of those hot and well-compensated areas (hopefully) without a lot of drama.

Believe it or not, besides dating a woman in Freehold back aways, our experiences sound more similar than different. I worked as a material scientist / chemist in manufacturing. As you mentioned, it hasn't gone well for our nation in that regard. I'll spare everyone the details, but around Y2K, I saw the handwriting on the wall, and luckily made the jump to something that's held up better than that has. I say luckily because my company went under 1.5 years after I left, whereas I fortunately fell into a program that allowed me to retrain and retool.

Hang in there, keep plugging, and continued best of luck!

"My new position pays less then my last one and I am forced to work the grave yard shift but that's life. Not the life I had hoped for in this stage of the game but at least I can start getting out of debt.
I do not resent success and the pleasure it brings, I like my toys like most of us but it shouldn't be so god damned hard."

One thing to keep in mind is that its much easier to get a job when you already have one. Most employers factor in if you are currently working. Use your new job to find a better one.

GO ASAP gamble all your cash!!!!!

very well noted for wealthy zip codes insurance is SUBSTANTIALLY lower. the reasons stated due to the number of accidents, but they're mostly wrong wrong. it's bs.
when i was poor, i knew and many more did how to void paying high insurance by disguising address to the wealthier areas.
it's natural: action - reaction, no snit!

Quite a while ago there was a congressman from California who lived either in Bel Air or Beverly Hills and he came right out and said that if you based rates on ones driving record (speeding and accidents) and then factored in the cost of repairs (upscale neighborhoods have upscale cars) then his constituents would end up paying a hell of a lot more for their insurance (their fare share) and he would have none of that.

Just another example of 'socialize the costs and privatize the profits'.

All the best,
Nonoise

"Quite a while ago there was a congressman from California who lived either in Bel Air or Beverly Hills and he came right out and said that if you based rates on ones driving record (speeding and accidents) and then factored in the cost of repairs (upscale neighborhoods have upscale cars) then his constituents would end up paying a hell of a lot more for their insurance (their fare share) and he would have none of that."

That is how they do it. Tickets and accidents effect premiums in extreme amounts. There's no better example than myself. When I was 18 driving around with a bunch of moving violations and accident on my record, the lowest quote I got for insurance on an $18,000 car was $11,000 for 6 months. ($11,000 is not a typo). A few years later, when everything came off my license, I paid $1200 on a $30,000 car for 6 months. To be fair, though, my $11,000 quote was well earned.

If you guys want to see how insurance companies really abuse people, you need to look at how they pay claims. Whatever injustices there are in calculating premiums, they pale in comparison to what they do when a policy holder has a legit claim. Its unreal. I have no idea how they get away with paying out such low amounts. And they do it to everyone, not just the poor.

Not to get too far off point here and certainly not to defend Insurance Companies, I'd be near the bottom of that list, but what about the insurance fraudsters ZD? Several years back my nephew who was 16 years old at the time on a learner's permit with my wife present was 2 cars back of a stop light and decided to switch in the far left lane and scraped the bumper of the commercial pickup truck in front of him. Long story short the guy in the truck feigned a "back injury", sued me for the limits of my liability policy which was well over 100k, sat in the insurance companies office with his attorney present I would add, and talked with his wife about the car he was going to get right with his money in front of my wife and myself while we waited to give our depositions. This is no joke, it really happened.

A friends daughter, who years back was a claims adjuster for a large auto Insurance Company, (go Flo) told me that well over 70% of the claims she dealt with were to varying degrees fraudlent. So it wouldn't surprise me that insurance companies take the low road as many of those they insure. A very sad testimony indeed.

Footnote to the story, they ended up settling for 40K for absolutely nothing, no damage to the truck whatsoever while my car had a scrape on the side totalling 1.5K of damage.

If you guys want to see how insurance companies really abuse people, you need to look at how they pay claims. Whatever injustices there are in calculating premiums, they pale in comparison to what they do when a policy holder has a legit claim. Its unreal. I have no idea how they get away with paying out such low amounts. And they do it to everyone, not just the poor.

So true!

Come to coastal NJ/NY and meet with people who were "touched" by Sandy. If you met with 100 people maybe 5 would be OK with their insurance settlement. The remaining 95 will have the same story of receiving about 1/3 of what the claim should have been. We were "touched" and our claim was about $42,000, we received $11,400! Barely enough to replace our furnace and hot water heater.
Oh and our flood insurance rate went up 40%!

Planning a trip to Atlantic City in two days .. 

zd542 ...

Do you reside in the Southern California area? If so, I think you and I  could become good friends. I like your style.

Frank

Ah, memories of the "diving" horse at the Steel Pier not to mention all the top acts of those yonder years including to your's Evelyn:" the Temptations, Four Tops and Supremes in their hey day. 

When reading this thread, I was initially unaware of the starting date, way back in 2014. Maybe some things never change. I would like to offer my observation as to who we are financially, and where we end up. In short, I am a bit above the level that my fathers' income was. I notice that my living tends to stay at the same level due to savings, spending habits, lack of debt and so forth. In spite of most of my life experiences, everything has remained essentially the same in a financial sense for me. I am also aware that it would take only one accident, one medical situation, one fire, to change all of that. Given enough time, I wonder if things would ever buoy out to normal after that.