curious what you think of 'em.
The newer scm12 are relatively easier to drive than older scm10
which they replaced. ( mid 80db sens. vs. 80db )
I'd still think tubes will have hard time controlling ATC drivers.
I'd reckon Manley can *drive* scm12 in a smallish to medium size
room, but, i'd think it can't realise scm12's potential.
Why not use a tube preamp with solid state amps?
That's one way you can get the bit more *depth* and layering
out of oh-so-flat ATC's earth. :-)
SCM12 is a good buy compared to the older SCM10 for less money.
You'll be in for fun.
I used a Stingray with my Maggie 1.6s with amazingly good results. That is one powerful (and sweet) amplifier and worth a try in my opinion.
the atc's need gobs of grunt to sound their best...the manley is a great amp but it needs to be mated with a more highly efficient speaker.
I have the SCM12's and they lost their dynamics and punch when I used them with my 45-watt ARC tube integrated. Instead, I use them as fronts in my small HT system in the bedroom, with an Acurus 125 x 5, and they are FANTASTIC! I think they need at least 100 watts to do their thing.
Thanks all for the comments received so far.
Misskuma -- to address the issue that you raised. I used to have a pretty serious tube preamp and solid state power amp, but I decided that I wanted to simplify things and travel a little lighter than the 85 pound hunk of metal that was my amplifier would allow. The Stingray gave me just about everything that I wanted in an integrated. No desire to change the amp just to accomodate a new speaker purchase. If the ATCs won't mate well with the Stingray, then I'll find something else that does.
But I am curious about why it takes so much power to run these speakers. The SCM12 is listed as having a sensitivity of 85db/1/1. Now I realize that some manufacturers fudge these numbers sometimes, but even if the number is more like 83db, if I am sitting perhaps 9 feet away and using a 50 wpc amp and listening at around 75db, why would the speaker need more power to play at these levels.
I realize that if I were trying to push peaks into the 90's then I could run out of juice, but at my usual levels? Is there something else about the design of the driver or implementation of the crossover that would cause this?
I could also understand if the impedence and phase angles were not tube friendly, that it would cause other problems that could result in the speakers not sounding too well with the Stingray. But as I said, the dealer I spoke with assured me that the speakers were a benign load for the amp. Has anyone seen a phase/impedence chart on these speakers?
LIke I said, it's *possible* to run ATC with Stingray.
specs is a funny thing. I'd think ATC's specs is pretty conservative.
*on paper*, for intance, B&W won't be needing mega watts amps, but,
they quite often sound better with more power than less. Wilson speaker
also falls in the same. My WATT is 92db/4 ohm speakers on paper.
I have driven 'em with both tube and solid state. Even in my small den (10 X12)
I ended up using a 250 watt solid state amp. More power seems to
give a better control on woofers. Cleaner 'starts and stops'.
ATC drivers seem to be the same. Sure you can drive 'em with 50 watt,
but, in case you want to let your hair down and turn up a wick, I sure
would like to have a firm control at all time.
I'm living with SCM 10 for last 3 years and have used number of amps
with 'em. There is something to be said about *tube* power where
they can sound more powerful than what the number suggests.
*if* Stingray has a robust enough power supply, they might be ok.
I was told that ATC has a flat 8 ohm impedance but,
what hurts is that rediculously low sensitivity and of course their
sealed enclosure makes it even tougher to get any kinda bass without
a real power behind it. quite often, they get accused of not having
enough bass. From my experience, their bass goes flat when they
are underpowered. I haven't tried my pair with any tubes amps to date.
( afraid to damage the drivers ) SCM 12 at 85db will give you a wider
amp selection than my pair at 80db. If you are set on Stingray, you can
certainly try em and see. Keep us posted.
I am curious how they do.
unless tube amps have extraordinary power,they should be used with ported,tube friendly speaker systems...i used to own a set of hales loudspeakers (sealed enclosures) and they refused to sing with anything less than 200watts per channel. they did sound incredible when they were paired with the right amplifier.
I'm using Lafayette KT-550 55Watt/ch tube amp for my original SCM10 (80db)and it got plenty of power for my living room space( 22' X 14' X 8' ) It's never "lack of power" and the bass definitely could make the floor shake. I tried the Krells and they sound grainy compared to the tube amp and yet they don't produce more bass than the tube gear. For tube gears, it's not just about power rating, the output and power transformer has a lot to do with it. Therefore, if the stingray has adequate size of the transformers than it is most likely enough to drive it to a good room size.
Thanks again, all.
I will certainly give the SCM12 a home audition (probably sometime next month) and give a report of how it goes. I expect to compare it against a Shamrock Eire, Proac D15, and if I can get one in, the Harbeth M30.
The Stingray does have some muscle behind it, and it apparantly is known to be able to drive some usually tougher loads, but I don't want to tax it unnecessarily.
I will be careful to listen to how well the Stingray seems to be able to control the bass of ATCs. I don't want it to take most everything that the Stingray has just to achieve moderate listening volume and dynamics. Gotta have a little headroom for those occassions when I do turn it up a bit.
Another superb-sounding set of monitors you might consider as you're auditioning are the ProAc 1SC's. There are usually a couple of pairs for sale used here, for around $1300. I have those monitors too, and they sound fantastic on the ARC CA-50 tube integrated (45 watts). They are really marvelous little speakers with lots of bass, and they sound wonderful on tubes.
Sc53 -- I like the floorstanding ProAc D15, but will try to hear the 1SC as well. Thanks for the suggestion.
How about the smaller SCM-7's. Also $1,000 vs. $2,100. Note: the old SCM-10's were $1,700 so the 12's cost more, not less.
I've listened to the scm7 as well. a nice pair.
but compared to scm12, they do not have the same level of midrange clarity.
The older scm10 *was* 2200$ if i recall. The difference is scm12 uses
SL drivers whereas scm 10 doesn't. ( it shows up in the midrange )
Only niggle on scm12 is they've got the 70's retro look thing again.
Misskuma, in what way the midrange sound different betweent the SCM12 and the old SCM10? I have not audition SCM12. tks
Those SL drivers give better clarity, definition and articulation
in the midrange and down. I'd reckon they have less distortion
than SCM10. As good as they are I can still hear some midbass rise
on those. Not too prominent like many minimonitors out there, however,
like their little sibling SCM7s, there is some *bass compensation* going
on. ie: give 'em a wee bit of midbass boost so that the speakers can
sound bigger than they are.
I don't hear any distortion or clarity or imaging issue in my setup. If any more then it could be a bit analytical sounding. Maybe its your amp or speaker wire that wasn't able to provide enough clarity. I'm using NBS Master speaker cable and Stealth Ultimate Ribbon speaker cable. Either one is very good. I had transparent music wave super before and it is slightly distorted and less focused.
Well, perhaps you should audition scm12 side by side with scm10.
Don't get me wrong, SCM10 is very very good. As far as midrange clarity goes
it's just matter of point of reference.
Out of all Brit monitors, I think ATC is pretty darn transparent. I
doubt that my observation is caused by electronics/cables since I've
driven 'em with different amps in past 3 years. Anywhere from
Krell, Rowland, Nagra, Plinius, Tact, Exposure, Sim Moon... I can't remember
what others... I ended up with
Bel Canto eVo6 bridged which is pretty darn *transparent* amplifier.
I could hear the same sonic signature no matter which amp i was using.
Granted, some complimented ATC's strength rather than exposing their
As for cabling, I am using NBS Statement with the pair and currently
using NBS master power cord for eVo6.
You wanna know what *analytical* is? Try Wilson. In some ways,
they share certain taits, yet, what is so marvelous about ATC
is that they give you enough information without losing a soul and
aside from a power requirement, they are relatively easy to partner
with electronics and place in the room to strut what they offer.
You've got a wonderful speakers. :-)
Misskuma: I have been toying with getting some ATC 12's. You mentioned you had listened to the ATCs with Plinius. Was that with Plinius separates? Integrated? I have the Plinius 8200mk2 and am wondering how that might pair with the 12's.
yeah. the one i had was Plinius SA100 mk3.
Sorry, I haven't heard the integrated.
BTW, I've gotten hold of 40 watt push pull tube amp.
I'll try it with SCM10 to see how they do in a small room.
Misskuma, 40Watt push and pull tube amp is a little under powered. I've driven it with McIntosh MC240 and the speaker can kill the amp when you crank it up. I'm currently using a 55 Watt push and pull and it is the best I've ever heard out of the SCM10
*the speaker can kill the amp when you crank it up.*
woudn't that be the other way around?
ie: underpowering the speakers can blow drivers?
I am hoping small room ( 10X12 ) would help it.
If 40 watts isn't enough, I can switch it to KT90
and get 8 more watts.
What was mac's power output?
MC240 is 40Watt/ch. It is very well known for its power.
After replaced the filter capacitors then it got better.
These speakers won't blow because they're rated 350watt/ch.
When I tried to push it to the limit,
The sound start to break up, and msuic seems to slow down a little.. You get the picture.
My room is 14 X 11. The 40Watt will work but it still lack of deep dynamic when compared to the 55Watt Lafayette KT-550. YOu can do the comparison yourself in your environment.
Am hoping to try out the 12's with the Plinius integrated later this week (Thursday, I hope). Will report back.
A great improvement to tighten up the base on the stingray is to upgrade the power cord. I tried a missing link. There was a night and day difference. The speakers that were used were gershman acoustics.
Im currently in the process of purchasing the Sonus Faber Cremona Auditors. Do you think the stingray will be a good match? The speakers will be listened to at a lower volume in a small room. Im trying to find an inexpensive integrated tube amp like the stingray. Budget is an issue and I am not interested in solid state.