Are you using anti-skating or not


On my side i always got better result without using anti-skating.

And you?
dobermann
I set anti-skate on the low side. If I track at 1.75, I generally like 1 on the anti-skate.
Dobermann
I have always used very little anti-skating force.

A thread started by member Thomasheisig on this very subject that may be of interest to you under the title.

Antiskating....The last analogue secret
I have always had the best results with as little anti skating force as possible in my setups both now and previous ones. Cheers
I run mine as low as possible, but I've never heard of anyone not using anti-skate force at all - in fact, I was under the impression that it was fairly impossible to do that.
Never use it. My 12" arm has no anti-skating provisions. Neither does the Empire setup I use mostly for 78s (this one, with a Stanton 881 and set for LPs, will track all four torture tracks of that HiFi News test record). The second arm on my main table, an SME IIIs, can be set for anti-skating, but I don't employ it.
None other than the twist in the tonearm wires in the JMW 9 arm to the junction box. It sounds better without than with and does not seem to affect tracking.
FWIW
Of course nobody used antiskating in the good old days when cartridges tracked at a VTF of about five grams. There was no provision for anti-skating on the arms.

Skating force is not a theory. Geometry causes it. The exact amount of force varies depending on the drag of the stylus in the groove, and that varies for many reasons. But it's never zero. Antiskating became important when cartridges tracking at 1-2 grams came along.

Yes. You can operate without antiskating, but you will need to use a higher-than-optimum VTF or you must tolerate occasional mistracking.

Of course the real solution is a linear tracking arm.
Of course the real solution is a linear tracking arm.
Eldartford (Reviews | Threads | Answers)

Yep.
I do not use anti-skate... Not only does my VPI 10.5 sound better with no anti-skate, but if I don't install the anti-skate device, it sounds even better. I also have a Rega that works better with no anti-skate, and the a/s defeated.
>>but you will need to use a higher-than-optimum VTF or you must tolerate occasional mistracking.<<

Wrong.

I use no anti-skating with any combination of 5 tonearms and 14 cartridges.

Don't need excessive VTF and there is no mis-tracking.

However, you do need a very precise alignment. This is critical.
Audiofeil...Evidently your cartridges work OK with non-vertical VTF.
I am running a Graham Phantom with a ZYX airy 3 and i have the antiskate set to zero. This does not mean i have no antiskate the weight is still there just moved as far in as possible so still a little bit of antiskate. I found once i used the Mint Tractor and my alignment was as close to perfect as i can get i was able to reduce my antiskate setting to zero. I tried removing the weight but it didn't sound right.
Todd
It's impossible to set appropriate antiskate for each record, at every point of the record. I've found that a (very) small amount of antiskate is a good compromise.

And no, there are no tracking issues, and I don't set VTA "higher than optimum".

I currently own 11 arms, and 5 TTs....
> Audiofeil
>
>I use no anti-skating with any combination of 5 tonearms and 14 cartridges.
>
>Don't need excessive VTF and there is no mis-tracking.
>
>However, you do need a very precise alignment. This is critical.

This is exactly what i have experimented and think about it.
>>Audiofeil...Evidently your cartridges work OK with non-vertical VTF<<

No, evidently you are wrong about the necessity of anti-skating.
Just to clarify things...do you guys deny that a skating force exists? I accept that some cartridge/arm combos can function OK in spite of the force. But it can't help.
> Eldartford
>Just to clarify things...do you guys deny that a skating force exists? I accept that some cartridge/arm combos can function OK in spite of the force. But it can't help.

Absolutely not, on my side i just didnt see any advantage of using it.
"Just to clarify things...do you guys deny that a skating force exists" Eldartford, I don,t deny it, a skating force does exist! I beleive this year they are called THE BOSTON BRUINS! Cheers
> Has2be
> I don,t deny it, a skating force does exist! I beleive this year they are called THE BOSTON > BRUINS! Cheers

LOL!
Why is there such a dichotomy about the antiskating issue? Some of you say: it is crucial to set the antiskating right, while others say: don't bother, I don't even use antiskating... It is too confusing! Are here also proponents who are fine tuning AS by means of hearing? --> Does this "setting AS by listening" work? Or is it only a joke? If that isn't a joke then the people who don't use AS at all are doing it wrong. Sorry but I'm very confused now.

Chris
One good reason is that some people think AS necessary because their gear won't track those stupid test records without it.

In actuality amplitudes found on test records are seldom, if ever, found on every day vinyl. In this regard, test records are useless. However, many of the other tracks can be helpful.

Alignment is really the key. With today's sophisticated stylus shapes and excellent tonearms, anti-skating is an afterthought IMO.
Bill, essentially you are saying: AS is not important. Or am I wrong?

Chris
Are here also proponents who are fine tuning AS by means of hearing? --> Does this "setting AS by listening" work? Or is it only a joke?
No joke. I've posted a simple and effective set-by-ear method several times:
1. Start with no AS and dial VTF in carefully (by listening!).
2. Play real music and enjoy.
3. If you hear R-channel mistracking on difficult passages, add just enough AS to control it.

SUMMARY: leave AS at zero unless you hear the specific problem it's designed to address. Then use just as much as you need to control the problem, no more.

If that isn't a joke then the people who don't use AS at all are doing it wrong.
Not true. The method above starts with no AS. If the rig plays your toughest LP's cleanly then you stay at no AS. That's where my rig is. I've actually removed my AS mechanism altogether because I don't need it with my current cartridge and the arm's noise floor is lower without it, but YMMV depending on your rig and the LP's you play.
I'm saying that based on my equipment, which is reasonably high quality and precisely aligned, I find AS contributes nothing positive to vinyl playback.

A blanket statement such as "AS is never needed" would be foolish. Given the permutation of tonearm/cartridge combinations, I'd bet you'll find some that benefit from AS.

YMMV
I not using AS (I have also removed the mechanism), I'm also finding that I can run much less VTF. So far, almost a gram less. I say so far because I haven't yet found the low point where mis-tracking occurs.
And this subject goes on and on. I tried eliminating all AS but found that just a very small about was necessary for proper tracking and balance.
It depends on the table and arm (and cartridge, too, probably).
I have a Well-Tempered table and arm with a Van den Hul Frog cartridge and don't use any anti-skating force.
I've, also, had the table set-up by two different dealers who didn't use any on it.
Both channels seem to track equally well and, after a few years of heavy use, I had my cartridge examined under a microscope by a dealer to see in what shape the stylus was. He said it showed relatively little wear--and no uneven wear--due, he went on, to my very careful set-up.
He said that is common practice for that table/arm and doesn't use any on them, either.

This is a classic YMMV situation.
Dear Dobermann: I'm not using it.

This does not means that the skating force does not exists in any ofsett angle tonearm because certainly exist.

Why several people choose to work with out use the anti-skate tonearm device ( the ones that have it )?, well we all already read it: because we like it better with out AS, so are we wrong?: IMHO and from the point of view that we can't hear any real quality improvement through the AS tonearm device I think we are not but from a scientist point of view yes we are wrong: we need the AS, we need to compensate/even for that skating force.

Subject is that the AS concept is very dificult to " handle/implement " due too many " imperfections " on the analog " stage " specially on the record it self where each track recording is totally different in the same record not only because some tracks are near the outer place of the record ( with changes in the skating force ) and other at the inner place but because in the same track exist different recording velocities ( that affects the AS need it ) ( there are many other factors that directly or inderectly affect the AS concept ).
All those different factors makes the AS subject very complex to resolve in absolute terms.

So maybe we like it with out AS because no one of us have the " perfect " AS tonearm device that could help to hear a real improvement ( maybe even with it we can't hear an improvement, I can't say for sure. ), that is: that almost all the AS tonearm devices are not the one that " we " need about, we have to wait that in the time to come appear the right AS tonearm control on ofsett angle tonearms, till this happen we have to care in deep on the " ideal " cero tolerance tonearm/cartridge/TT set-up.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
I think, here is some good info about it.

Antiskating .... The last analog secret

Btw. I use very little AS Force, a hair above nothing.
Dan ed what is your point of lowering your VTF? I use some AS using the string and weight method so I have no idea how much, it's in about the middle, I have had no tracking problems and I believe I'm perfectly aligned - guess I should try without to see what all the fuss is about...
I use test records with increasing modulation to set antiskating at a point where both channels track evenly. Use of some antiskating ALWAYS improves tracking ability in the arms I've dealt with.

But, using this method I almost always end up applying much less antiskating force than the manufacturer recommends. I am frequently near the lowest setting on whatever scale the arm supplies. This has been true with several Vector arms, Graham 1.5t, Graham 2.2, Graham Phantom, SME 209, and a Roksan arm.
Hi Pops, I was only making the point that not only do I not currently use any AS, I also have found that I can reduce VTF. This is in contrast to some earlier comments about needing to increase VTF with less AS. My point is, this ain't necessarily so.

If a tonearm/cart can provide playback with no mis-tracking then why apply AS? Sure there is a force vector component in that direction. But if the magnitude of the force is not sufficient to cause mis-tracking, why apply AS? If a tonearm/cart can provide playback with much less VTF than even the manufacturer recommends with no mis-tracking, then why apply more than is necessary?

What is right and what is wrong? Your arm/cart will tell you. Listen to them! If there is a problem they will tell you. If there is no problem, why force the issue? Just my current opinion on this subject based on what I hear in my system.

But then there is the question of tone control. I'm still working this one out for myself, but as of today I don't think AS and VTF should be used as tone adjustments although we all know that there is a range that will affect this. Even if these parameters are used to change the impact, tone quality, etc., this is going to be subjective as we all have different sonic priorities. Again, not necessarily a right/wrong answer.
Anti-what? I've got a tangential arm.
Good one Satch.
Dear Satch: Good " move " but as you know nothing is perfect and the tangential arm has its own " drawbacks " on performance.

Well this is not the time/thread to speak about.

regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
I find AS contributes nothing positive to vinyl playback
Audiofeil

I agree with Audiofeil .. expecially if you use MintLP Tractor setup you absolutely don't need any anti-skating
I use the Lemco wire with my Scoutmaster.