This argument can't really be definitively solved, ever. My last system was a $50K retail 2 channel CD listening system that I paid about $35K for. Not that much of a bargain, but not all the components were used. I auditioned component for months, and that's not over months an hour here an hour there. In New York City there are over 5 high end audio stores, most of which I spent 10 hours listening in, one of which I spent at least 40+ hours listening in to find the right system for me. I listened to more expensive things that sounded worse, and more expensive things that sounded better. The point is that it is completely individual. I DO believe that most systems, given an unlimited budget can be improved to the owners ears. It is statistically unlikely that this would not be the case. But we can all find mediums. For instance, a very respected (by me) audiophile associate of mine loves Krell amps. I would rather have an Aiwa than their 600 lb. monoblocks. But that is the sound he loves. Recently I had to sell my 2 channel system due to financial issues, but was able to replace it with a very personally acceptable home theater system which does music wonderfully for only $12K with a retail of $24K. It comes down to buy used when it makes sense, and more money never hurts. |
no...not rich here either....but I am hooked. I had been using a Hafler 110pre and 220 amp with Polk monitors for YeARS. These pieces had been moved into more colledge apartments than I can count. I finally got the bug at age 28 and decided to put a "real" system together. Started with the little CJ tube integrated and JMLabs Daline 3.1's and was really happy. I did purchase new from dealer (amp) and used speakers (same dealer). Then I discovered Audiomart (high end classified via US Postal) and Audiogon. I was able to quickly upgrade my amp to a Prem. 11A at no additional cost (after selling the CAV-50 integrated). I spend a little money on some sonus fabers (direct from Italy at a nice price). After time I opted to plunk down the $$ on a Levinson CD source. I must say....I have approx. 10-11k in the stereo which accumulated over 12 months or so. It seemed like a lot of money....but I wouldn't sell my system for the same money today! sidenote-....there are many systems that cost less than mine that sound stellar...high cost is not a prerequisite for a great sounding system....patience and listening are. It may be a bit easier to find the "sound" you want if you are able to spend big bucks....but you can do it on a budget if you have the patience. |
Nloyer, Good to hear from another New Yorker. See you at... Sound by Singer, Stereo Exchange, Audio-Video Salon, or maybe Harvey's? |
or maybe Park Ave Audio? BMPNYC, (Butler Music Productions NEW YORK CITY) |
Cornfedboy, I am not sure who you are talking to, but it is safe to assume that I must be one of your audience. It does not take Marxism to talk about morality. Charity is still morally superior to, say, spending extra money on yourself even in our society, isn't it? But, nobody will blame you for not rising above the norm of capitalistic instincts in our society. But, we will congratulate you for rising above the norm, though. In other words, good thing is good thing is good thing. No need to lean on ideology for morality. Not to feel too badly if you have not done a lot of good things with your money. I have not. Nobody has to in the US. But, sharing still is a good thing. Robbing is bad. And, neither is neutral in our society. In your context, morally neutral. That is how I see it, and my moral stance with money has been mostly neutral. Still, sharing is morally fulfilling as someone said here, and I do admire people who does that. Nonetheless, that is not to propose how much is "morally acceptable." Only you can determine that in the US. Are you materially affluent enough to buy your gears, so that the opportunity cost is minimal (that was the argument of mine)? Then, that is it. If you want to go into "morally acceptable" figures, that is about it. No ideological issues here. Who is trying to take the gears from your hands? By the way, there are rich Democrats and even rich Socialists. I am not sure why you are assuming so much here to put forth an argument nobody has hinted. If interested, we can talk some more tonight.. |
Gosh! You can write a book about this from the all of the above replies. My theory is really simple. Buy what makes you happy-be it for music, name brands, or to show -off.No excuses. I waited for long time for what I wanted (Full range speakers, power amp to go with itand works) untill when I could afford. I won't lower my standards. That has been my theory for every thing in life. Wait till you afford it or else don't buy, don't whine, don't rationalize. Buy nothing but the best. Just be Happy. I bet if you were to win a lottery tommorrow, everyone of you will go get that 100+ k system and never return to this sorry ass site. |
Nilthepill - only 1/2 right - if I won the lottery tomorrow I would go get that 100K system, but I would return to this site as well. I'd have to brag somewhere..... |
Hell, if I won the lottery who needs audio. I would hire the Rolling Stones as my house band, ok, maybe not them, but I bet I could get The Emerson String Quartet: Schubert, Mozart, Spohr,Brahms,Beethoven string quartets live in your house! Everyday! Wow! Now is that being morally bankrupt? Actually, if I won the lottery I think I would buy a Hinckley 53' sailboat. Hell with audio let the waves be my music. |
Kthomas and Shubertmaniac, As I said whatever makes you happy. Live and let live. |
I was suprised at the roll that we got going on this one. I want to also say that I did not mean to guilt anyone or make them defend their decisions. I believe it is your money and you should do with it how you see fit. What I intended was for us all to look at how much is too much. I think that we have done that here. I also wanted to remind those in the audio community that there are many many folks in great need. My personal value is if you have 100K to spend on entertainment (not professional business applications)then you mightthink about your local church, charity, or organizations and lend them a helping hand. It is people that have this kind of money that can help if they want to. I am going to climb off my high horse and go home to install my new spk cables I picked up on this site for $240.00. It may not be the absolute sound to some of you, but I am hoping to hear an improvement over the free stuff the dealer gave me when I purchased my spks. It is hard for me to imagine laying out 10K for some NBS stuff or whatever, and achieving a proportionally higher amount of satisfaction. I guess it's all relative. There is a point though that anything in life can be overdone. I am not the one to tell you if and where that point is. It is for each of us to decide. If I did win the lottery I would not run out and buy 100K worth of audio. I would buy a lot of stuff, but would keep the system I have. Ok, I would probably upgrade my cd player to the EAD Ultradisc 2000, and some new cds, but that's it! |
It is beginning to sound like a sermon here, and not Audiogon. Axomoxa, it seems to me that you are still judging people by your own yardstick of limitations. My point is that it is possible to donate 100,000 to charity, assist friends and family, help little old ladies across the street, and still spend $100,000 on a sound system. You seem to think that the person buying such a sound system has only that much money, and splurged it all on a stereo. Your "too far" seems not very far to me. I bet it would not be too hard for you to imagine buying a beautiful Vac integrated amp with Synergistic Research cables, Avalon speakers, A Theta transport with DCS upsamplers, 100 favorite CD's and a nice Eames leather leather chair to listen in if you tried. I hope you win a million dollars in the lottery and get the chance to put your money where your mouth is. Good luck to you, either way. |
People who criticize others because they are upgrading, or spend there $$$ on some of the more esoteric equipment because they can, raise my eyebrows. Tubegroover say's "I guess I do question individuals that are always changing out expensive gear in a never ending quest for owning the best" Who are you to question anyone on how they spend there money. Would you like it if I questioned you on your ancient audio gear. It is not always true but more times than not, you get what you pay for. I guess I am one of those irrational non-sensible ones. It must be true cause Tubegroover said so. I think you are losing your groove tube. Cornfedboy, WOW, you blow my mind. Would you teach me to write? |
Brulee if it makes you feel good do it. Ye protest too much. I must have hit a nerve ending. My questioning is the sanity (insanity?) of 50k 100k 250k(?) components and all the underlying reasons for their existence in the first place. I don't see it as good value. How much is too much? Everyone has their "uncle" point, mine is at a lower threshold than yours, thats all. I'm talking about my values, NOT YOURS BRULEE. If you want to critique my system with my "ancient gear" (You REALLY proved my point to myself after that remark) after listening, I would welcome it. Always value an astute opinion. I'm sure with as much gear as you apparently have owned, some good recommendations could be made. I could then go out and pay maybe 30 or 40% of retail on the used market. |
Tubegroover, Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with your gear or anybody else's. It is your questioning individuals on anything that I protest. Ya, you hit a nerve when you once again questioned me on my post of the FIM PCs. Remember when I raised your eyebrows? You made an unfair accusation because of my 3 posts on this wonderful sounding PC and 3 days later you do the same thing regarding MIT. I guess it is ok for you but not me. Peace tubegroover. |
Thomas Haliberton. I just a matter of perspective and priority. Every time you see a 50,000 plus Mercedes in traffic just think what the driver could be listening to at night if he/she had bought a Toyata Camray. There's lots of wealth out there it's just only about one in a hunderd have it. Don't feel that not having it will exclude you from having a great system. Putting away 75.00 every second week and buy used over a period of 8to10 years will build you a system that 9/10th's of the best. Read David99's post above for a great yet affordabe upgrade path. Yet another analogy. In the last few months I had to buy 3 high end laptops for some of my wife's employees. $ 18.000 CDN and after 3 years they are not worth their weight in pototoes. I could have bought a Simaudio moom amp,pre and cd and had great music for 20 years. Cheers steve |
Thomas Haliberton. It's .....sorry |
An oponent of blatent consumerism and materialism, I occasionally find it hard to rationalize to myself my own spending for audio gear. Certainly from the lowly depths of middle class America, 50k - 100k systems seem as extravagent as using Springbank 25 to mix up scotch and Coke. Indeed there are probably more 'noble' appropriations for this kind of cash. Of course, I do not question the right of people to spend their money as they would, however I think I do have the right to question the judgement of all luxurious excess. Still, I'm not so full of myself that I think that I'm imune to these same lapses in judgement from time to time. One thought that all AG critiques of conspicuous consumption should keep in mind is that all of us have probably had to defend our spending on these things at one point another. Thus, I think it not improbable that in the face of constant criticism a certain amount of defensiveness may develop. I know I get a little irritated when people start hrmphing abou the cost oft my (in the context of this board) modest system. So perhaps a little more grace than normal is required in discussing this topic. |
Hey, Axomoxa! Is that "Steal your face" or Steal your inter-face" ? Anyway, I'm GDTRFB! |
Right on Ramstl! Just tryin' to spread the good hippie word :-) Think of all those concerts you could see for 100K! Not to mention it would buy a whole lotta microbusses to get your friends to the show. "We use to play for silver, now we play(ed) for live...!" Shit for 100K I could book the damm band to play in my living room! I bet if I called Phil Lesh and offered to donate 100K to the Unbroken Chain foundation, he would get his friends and come over and play at my house. Shoot.. for 100K I might even get Neil Young to sit in with him. But that would only be one night and I suppose if you have your own system for 100K you can experience it every night. Now that I think about it, I could be closer to the Dark Side than I originally thought! |
If I had a $100K system at home today, I'd spend my time brooding about why I wasn't yet able to afford the $1M Grand Enigma speaker system. I'd be miserable that there was something better out there than what I currently had. I'd be angry at my wife for not letting me spend the money. Other aspects of the question: Which are you most likely to spend $100K on first - a car or an audio system? If the notion of a $100K audio system seems excessive, does having five $20K systems seem more excessive, less excessive or equally excessive? (main room, living room, bedroom, office and vacation home). If you had $100K you were willing to spend on either an audio system or going to see concerts, what is the likelihood you'd actually have time to go to that many concerts? I don't have the $100K for either and I'm already out of time to go to anywhere near enough concerts to burn up $100K any time soon. Just wonderin' |
Good food for thought kthomas. If I had the time AND the money my choice would be easy. |
Honey, can you get the maid - I need a grape. Ah, that's the life, rich and sassy. NO! I'm far from rich, just an addict. I traded in the drugs of the '60s for musical nervana. I drive a ten year old car with 180,000 and it runs great. My clients although they spend $2-4 million dollars on there houses I design don't care what I drive, and my friends don't care either. I once tried to play rich, but after a major heart attack and two years of no income, food shelves and the humility I do what I want to do. I had a $45,000 car, was I rich? I had a nice house, was I rich? No, but others thought I was. Now I'm rich in my soul, live very simple and love my music. It's all about priorities, mine are far different than most peoples, but at least I have a common bond here at Audiogon. |
Hey now! It just a matter of values, balance and priorities. Anyone can spend their money anyway they want, just don't tell me how to spend mine. It all relative, man! As a matter of fact, I want people to buy the best, spend the most and trade in often. It is part of the system that encourages engineers to push the limit and thus trickle down tech. I want to see what can be done with unlimited resources which thus has implication for other aspects, blah, blah, blah....... and of course I love that cheap used gear! Hey Axomoxa, was that "how many micro-dots or micro-buses." Well, I guess today it is more like micro brew. "What a long strange trip it will be!" |
Ramstl...talk about upgrading the system! Just think what 100K worth of micro-dots would do for your system...vast improvment on the accutity of your hearing I bet. As a matter of fact I remember one night in my freinds appartment, hearing a $20 ghetto blaster make sounds(music)that my 5K system to this day has not been able to match! We were so excited about what was coming out of that blaster that it had me and 2 other freinds jumping up and down on the couch and doing cartwheels from the pure pleasure of the cassette tape that was playing. If I remember correctly we were laughing so hard we started crying. I guess it has a lot to do with your frame of mind! Hmmmm...that's kinda of interesting...imagine that, your frame of mind, affecting what your hearing and whether it sounds good or not? Doesn't sound too far outside the laws of phychology. I wonder if we all suffer from that a bit. I wonder if this could be related to up-graditis, that thing inside that tells us no matter how much we get or spend we still are not satisfied and thirst for more. |
hey, sometimes some of us are actually trying to improve the sound of our systems, not yust spend money - my current speakers retailed for $3800 (tax/delivery not included), the ones i'm now wanting to buy retail for $2265, delivered. |
Dud,what speakers are looking to buy? |
That Male Hunting instinct is at it's best when it's in the search of good deals on used high end gear (IMHO). I don't know about the rest, but I know that half the fun for us is researching, comparing, talking to people, getting good deals, trying something new - maybe loving it - maybe selling it the next day ----- The most commonly used phrase around here is "when we get _____, then we're done! " HA |
david, i'm considering the newform research nhb645's or r645's. angela's point about "hunting instinct" is well-taken - i paid <30% of retail for my current speakers, & i'll have to pay full-boat for the newforms - it'll totally ruin my 3:1 retail-price/paid-price ratio for my system! ;~) but, hopefully, it will exponentially improve the sound of the system, compared to the sound of *cost-no-object* systems... :>) regards, doug |
plsl, you r lucky. My wife was very understanding at first, but recently she has put her foot down, I guess I've upgrade one to many times for her. Next year is looking more promissing, which is good cause daddy wants a new subwoofer and another pre.. Not rich, just a good shopper. pete |
PB&J and a frequent shopper of audiogon. |
...the price of the system grows from the time you've started such hobby(~$2000 "downpayment")not as fast as it seems and you do not have to be Wall-Street-like guy in audio.
The funny thing is that when you upgrade your setup every year or two, audio seems like car-loan payments and within a certain period of time its price can grow upto the cost of luxury car or more even if you're relatively low-income audio freak like I am.
I do sacrifice on car expances and buy only used and old lo-tek US made cars. |
As p1s1, we too are music junkies. Also, on the long path to riches which we will have crossed by the yr. 2099. A large prtion of our money goes to music, live & s/w and the equip to listen to what we cannot hear live (Heifetz? Oistrakh? Gieseking, etc, etc).
I dare say, we're happy with what we have -- rather than coveting what we don't have.
It doesn't make us rich (but you just wait!) >)
Cheers! |
I agree with Kthomas -- my system is very nice and I spent less than many people spend on a car (Sierra Denali amps, Montana KAS, MIT Oracle V2, Sierra pream, Perpetual Technologies with Wright mods, California Audio). I tell my wife that a mid-life crisis spend on audio gear will get me in a lot less trouble than spending the same money on a hot car (frankly, I'm not at all convinced that the hot car would do much better, but it makes a good story);-)
As others indicate, you can get a fine system for well under $10,000. For example, I owned a couple of Bryston 7B-ST's, the Bryston preamp and Thiel CS-6's that I'm in the process of selling to my neighbor at blue book (around $8,500 with lots of cables etc. thrown in) -- that is a very nice system! I wouldn't have parted with it unless I ran into some great deals on something far better (and more expensive). You can find great deals on Audiogon! The new systems at full price are for folks who have the money and want the help. If you know what you are doing (or are a good researcher), you can latch on to great deals.
Do some searches on Audiogon and I'm sure you'll come up with a fantastic system for not too much money. Over time, you keep upgrading and spending more, but it's a lot easier on the cash flow than doing it all at once. I'm not rich but do OK -- I guess if I made less money, I'd drive a used car and look for deals on Audiogon and elsewhere. Good luck. |
I must have missed this thread, dunno how that was possible??? Well I read it all and there are a lot of good points made, I agree that most serious audiophiles will upgrade to the major's if/when they have the money to do it. I started with a system worth about 7k and now(less then 2 years) it is closer to 40k and climbing rapidly. I find a lot of improvement with my upgrades and I realize one day there will be a point when I can no longer upgrade. The only way I can justify it to myself is thinking of boats, people blow loads of money on boats and use them 6 times a year, well I spend similiar money on my stereo which I can use any day all day if I want. I don't have a wife/girlfriend to contend with so it is not a factor.....yet. Another thing I did was when I got rid of my car(cadillac=high payments) I got a cheaper car(VW=low payments) and now I now have corporate funding for my audio habit, via a monthly payment, life is grand. |
My formula (and I think the formula for others in these challenging economic times) is one word: value. That means paying 33% to 50% of retail for most everything, unless the piece has a very high value already and is difficult to obtain discounted. This high value category could include the above-cited Newform Research speakers and other high end stuff that's sold only direct (i.e not with three levels of markup) Brian's Whale power cords are a good expample of this, as they represent a high value to cost ratio, when compared with other cords costing triple or more.
Another example of value: I recently stole a Placette active line stage pre for 1/2 of the factory direct price through an Audiogon auction. To me, paying 50% for the Placette was akin to buying Krell or Levinson for 25% of list, as Placette spends 50% of its costs on materials alone. It's that value equation again.
Cables are another kettle of fish. Some are so hopelessly overpriced that I try for 20% of retail, or even less. This doesn't mean that these (NBS,etc.)cables aren't worth every penny, just that you should never pay retail, because, if you hang out here it's easy to save at least 60%. And if you want to try an exotically priced cable that doesn't have the resale value of Cardas or Nordost, be preapered to take a bath if you have to resell.
But what about high-buck cables that are also high value and have a widely-accepted cache associated with their name? I'm thinking here of Nordoes and Cardas.
Would I pay retail to "Valhalasize" my systems with Nordost's best if I could (a) afford to (b) thought they made a big diffence. Yes. After hearing them this weekend, they DO make a differnce, as much IMHO as a significant component upgrade. Therefore to me, these $3,300 interconnects and $6K+ speaker cables do have "value", despite their make-you-choke lsit price. The icing on the cake is that Nordost's good name will keep the resale value high, further helping me justify the purchase if I can afford to do so.
Speaking of affordability, at the Toronto show this weekend I had a chance to listen to some highly synergistic systems that far exceeded what I can afford. Value at full retail? ...I'm not so sure. But if I could stomach the payments, and I got a bit of discount, and the dealers weren't so damm snobby ... and we were in better economic times, and we had world peace ...well, you get the idea. So let's add one more variable to the value equation: synergy.
I realize I'm wandering a bit here, but let me tell you about the two stand-out rooms in Toronto:(Other rooms had $100K+ systems that sounded much WORSE than my humble Kefs and this includes the room featuring the stunning new B&W 800 with the Signature finish.)
The first standout room was set up by Inner Ear magazine, a Canadain rag that I have new-found respect for after talking at length to two of its writers. Gersham Opera Savages powered by a $22,000 15 Watt pair of Tenor monoblocks. (Sorry, I can't remember the preamp.) Nordost's Valhallas on everything and a giant Tice power conditioner took care of getting the signal to where it should be without any coloration. Redbook as good as my SACD was had through the AA Capitole, which by the way, was used in 5+ rooms at the show. Even garden variety CDs sounded rich and room filling with absolutely no fatique. I listened for over an hour, paying more attention to the artist rather than trying to nit-pick the system. True synergy for under $100K. And I even had a heart-to-heart with Eli Gershman, the Opera's designer. When he knew I was serious about these speakers, Eli went to great lengths to distinguish this flagship Opera Savage from my other lust for life, the Gershman Gap. Hint: the Opera goes a little lower, but more importantly has wider dispersion, whereas with the Gaps, you need to sit "right here". My only knock against the Opera Savage is that are, to put it diplomatically, odd looking and quite frankly a bit ugly, especailly after being seduced by the B&W 800's. If I bought the Savages, my wife would say my hobby "belongs in the basement", whereas the B&Ws would surely be worthy of the living room.
Across the hall (which kind'a made an intersting A/B comparison possible) was a pair of Nearfield Acoustics Pipedreams. These damm things, which looked like 10 bookself speakers glued end-to-end, almost touched the ceiling and intimidated all of all the audiophile sardines packed into the miniscule 12'x15' hotel room. The P'Dreams reminded me of those 30-foot triple-stretched limos: grotesque and surely excessive. And they weren't even accurate (when comapred to the Opera Savage). So why am I in love? Powered by the Tenor $29K 75 Watt tube monos, the Pipedreams quite simply replace a live soundstage. What these towers can do so much better than lesser, mere mortal speakers, is produce a live, life-size perfomance ambience that lets you visualize the band members in size-as 3D. Instruments had height as well as being right "there", every instrument was raised off the floor, as on a real stage, with the drum kit still higher, on a drummer's platform. Depth exceeded the walls of room. A glance over to the component wall also revealed the Audio Aero Capitole providing the source signal. I was in such a state of pipedreamed lull, that I forgot to note the preamp and cabling (sorry!)
So put away the instruments that measure accuracy, extension and whatever else the rags technically harp over, the Pipedreams are not about that; they simply bring the performers into you room and let you reach out and touch them. And no instrument can measure that. Getting back around to the subject head of "value", would I pay the $100K+ asking price for this system? In a heartbeat. And it's a much better value than that &#@%! Nortel stock in my portfolio that was supposed to let me realize my own pipedream.
I'll do a more comprehensive show report after it finishes today. --Lorne
|
Every single piece in my system was purchased used or on auction. Full retail (puhleze!) would be ~$15,000. Actual cash spent is $5929.00. This includes $500.00 to completely upgrade the Pass Aleph P pre amp including all new metal. I work an extra job on Thursday only & use that money for my upgrades. I also have to use that money for anything else I want including a new shotgun, sofa, etc., so I'm still very careful about what I buy. There are good deals to be had & a few exceptional ones. I work too hard to skimp on my meals but also drive a 1984 Honda Civic. Vehicles used to mean a lot more to me but all I care about now is getting from point A-B, although I do have a 1985 Chev pick-up that has a very real 350 HP 350 tied to a TCI turbo 350. Oh well, that's another "hobby" that costs money! I'm not in a very high tax bracket so I can't buy too much, but like someone else mentioned, my neighbor has a boat & I have a stereo. To each his own! |
i just turned 32, and my system retail is ridiculous. it took me 12 years of buying, trading, selling,etc to reach where i am. i am by no means rich, but i eat 5to six times a day and workout daily. and work fulltime . self employed though. buying used and trading will get you their somday. |
Hey Tom, Go to audioclassics.com. Speak to a guy named Frank Gow. He will set you up with a great system for WAY less than $50,000, probably $10-15k. They sell used as well as new, but, the thingf I like about them kis there used gear, if listed as excellent, looks and operates as if it was bought yesterday! Frank's dad started McIntosh along with Mr.McIntosh in '49 and is a VERY knowledable guy. Tell him Sal sent you. Good luck, |
I am glad a friend of mine, divorced who gave up his expensive car hobby, has a reference Audio Note system built around the DAC 5 and the Ongaku; only non audio note item is the Levinson reference CD transport. This system is 150 grand of pure heaven; never heard anything like. I survive on my almost entry level Audio Note stuff and will upgrade to a bit better stuff in increments. |
1. My wife and I both love music and typically the same type of music.
2. We justify our expenditures by the car test. Do you spend more time in your car or listening to your stereo? If the answer is your stereo then you could justify spending the same amount of bucks ie >= $25K even for two off model year cars.
3. In many cases its not the sound system that's the expensive part. We purchased a house with the stereo on mind. Large room 18x 22 x 9 celing. Now that was the most expensive piece of sound gear I've ever purchased!!! |
I am definetely not RICH.. But I do love Audio.. I'm 21 and I have over 10K in my system. This isn't much in the Audiophile world, but it is musical and makes me tap my toes. My friends buy cars and bass systems on credit and spend their cash wastefully. I make one major purchase every year and live quite nicely the rest of the year. It's all about how you manage your money (having a good job helps too). Make sure you spend as much money on personal development as you do on other stuff like audio. Not trying to be a smart ass, just stuff I learned from some wealthy friends. "If you want to be successful you have to surround yourself with successful people" not too sure who that one is originally from. |
Well Buckingham my name is Tim and I would like if you would site me as a reference when using my quote.....J/K. What's up nice to hear from another younger audiophile(I am 20). I agree with planning/personal development(I invest about 5:1 what I spend on anything, including audio), "those who fail to plan, plan to fail" some of my not so well of friends laugh at me, but in the end I will be sitting fat, living the good life(or so my financial advisors tell me :) Here's to years of audio enjoyment, and a life of prosperity!
Tim |
Having been bitten by the "Bug" right here, on Audiogon, I have to weigh in on this one. After two years of buying, selling, learning etc., I have a system that to my ears,and a good many others, sounds incredibly good. I purchased all of the more important pieces used (cd, int. amp, speakers) and saved better than half what they cost new. They were all only a few months old and all under warranty. I would not have been able to pay for any of it at regular retail, and could sell each item for more than I paid for it. My total investment so far is approx 4k. I'm not rich, and do not have money to burn. Those who do have my undying gratitude. I don't mind picking up their cast-off's, or letting them pay "whatever". They've done me a favor, and I hope the trend continues. I can say, however, that the best thing that I have come across in terms of audio equipment has been totally free: this website and all of you who care enough to contribute your opinions and share your knowledge.
Thank you. |
Audiophile does not have to = audio snob I have a wealthy friend that shops at the local "Tiffany" audio salon . He paid almost $60,000.00 for a "Class A " stereo from all the top brands. Yes his system is great but my system for about 25% of that is almost as good. I have put systems together for under two grand that are great musical systems that play at concert sound levels. It is difficult but simple Buy value not hype. It's tough to sort through all the magazine BS but there out there . For example the 70's Luxman receivers and seperates are so great and cheap. they compare to new suff costing 5 times as much . The Luxman 1120 is simply awesome ! Tandberg 2075 , 2080 both include phonos . How about Fisher tube receivers , H.H. Scott 299 int. amps are astonishingly good ! , The AR turntable for under $ 100.00 . I could go on for a long time . If you want a musical system for a song ask a knowledgable audiophile . Also buy the brands that are not as popular. Sonic frontiers makes the best gear , They are not the most popular at times. read learn and ask. When the Mark II comes out buy the mark I etc. REMEMBER ITS ABOUT THE MUSIC ! |
Dont forget that there is a point of diminishing (spelling error?) return. I have about 15K in my system, and I know that anything I add at this point will not make a huge difference. This hobby is more like a sickness. |
mhubbard: can you explain, please, how you know with such apparent conviction, that "anything I add at this point will not make a huge difference"? i assume that you offer up this assertion after having tried every frontend, every power source, every preamp, every speaker, every stand, every wire and every other component or tweak available in the universe in your very own home. yeah, right. -cfb |
I agree with what Kelly is saying up to a certain point. There are sometimes DRASTIC differences that one can run into by varying the combination of equipment within a system. Sometimes this has little to do with price although it TYPICALLY costs more to make a better product. Then again, sometimes you just run across a combo that defies logic and the cost constraints of "high end".
For those that do not follow a logical plan of attack, dumping tons of money into a system can seem quite frustrating and frivilous. A song by Motorhead comes to mind: "The Chase is Better Than The Catch". Shopping and comparing gear is fun, but it is MUCH more enjoyable when everything comes together as you'd like it to. This is true regardless of price. Sean
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and i agree with sean, entirely! -cfb |
Sean- "the chase is better then the catch", you know her too! after all the work it just isn't worth it.
I've always wanted to try to build a budget rig, after I get the BIG system sounding good-to me, anyway- set a budget of about 2k or so and just be patient and try to find the best gear out there for the money that will work good together. But that will be a while down the road I am out of rooms for the moment!
BTW CFB your in an odd mood today, did someone taint your corn? lol Your post on WHO RU? seems as though you may had a few too many in ya at the point, eh? Cheers!
Tim |
Easy there "cornfedboy"!!!
The very word "HUGE" is a realative term. "HUGE" to me means "OH MY GOD I HAD NO IDEA SOUND COULD BE THIS GOOD"!!!
Yes... I suppose that replacing all my equipment with the latest super high-end equipment would make a noticable change...unfortuantly I would have no change ($) left in my pocket!
I was answering a post from a guy who obviously does'nt have all the money in the world, but still appriciates good sound. You, on the otherhand, obviously have all the money in the world to try every frontend, every power source, every preamp, every speaker, every stand, every wire and every tweak available (good for you!). Perhaps with all the extra equipment you have sitting around you could give it to the guy who started this post!!!
You sir, have the audiophile sickness worse than any other "audiogoner" I've ever read.
Go outside and take a walk! |
