Are current audio cable designs superior to 1980s designs?
(I'm reposting this question under a new title because the original was vague, misleading, and elicited irrelevant replies).
Been using the same pair of 1980s AudioQuest rubber-encased XLR cables between pre and power amps since 1987 with good results -- good in the noncomparative abstract, that is. Components have come and gone, but the AQs have remained the sole constant. Until Morrow's recent Reopening Sale gave me an excuse to play with a more contemporary design. Just made the switch and I know the Morrow burn-in can be prolonged. Plan to set FM tuner overnights to "white noise" rather than BBC human voice signal to speed the process.
Question: to what degree do you believe balanced interconnect designs have improved over the past 30-40 years? And, price range being the same (adjusted for inflation), would you expect the current lean, lightweight Morrows to outperform the old, heavy-duty AudioQuest design? Morrow says they will, but what do this forum's many cable experts think about it?
As I said upfront, same question, different title. I don't know about you, but my own decision whether or not to read a given thread depends on the title. If the title doesn't properly describe the substance of the question, I will either never know or will quit reading.
Same principle as a newspaper headline. Bury the lede and lose the read.
Older AQ cables from the later 1980s mostly tended to lobb thick generic copper strands together thus blurring the results, IMO. Today in some of the better AQ lines, they do source nice copper from a well known provider and design changes with added dielectrics with less noise and changes in detail, sound stage, clarity, tone.
Both can sound nice for different reasons. Some like that older blurred image sound, others prefer more detail and separation. Let your ears be the judge. So many companies and spins on designs, gotta try to know.
Sure, there have been changes and new designs in the past 40 years. There are loaner program services offered like the TheCableCo to help try before you buy. The service comes at a price vs. reading and guessing.
You're questioning whether cables have improved in 40 years? No. Cars, tires, toothpaste, lightbulbs, computers, phones, homes, (5000 items later) and speakers are better. Cables for some strange reason are just the same. Even socks are better. Underwear. But not cables.
Sorry, having trouble taking this question seriously. Its that far out there. Even with the cost inflation thing. Its just nuts. Cables are so much better its hard to believe.
Ted Denney alone has developed, brought to market, and improved beyond three different technologies- Active Shielding, Quantum Tunneling, UEF- each better than the last. Each generation so much better the worst cheapest version of the new generation outperforms the prior best most expensive model. That's improvement any way you want to slice it.
That said, never underestimate the talent of an audiophile to find some pure crap to throw his money away on. DYODD.
Simple question, simple answer, and just what I wanted to know, so thanks millercarbon.
Are the cable refinements audibly superior or just conceptually niftier? Your assurance is enough.
FMI I will go study the Ted Denney evolution. Sorry, ignoring cables for decades and only lately paying attention again.What's objectively better, what's just for show? Because the audio equivalent of Rolex would be anathema to me, and veterans here can help to steer me right.
I think if you get a cable cooker and then
freeze them as a secondary operation those old cable will be just fine. Seriuosly now copper is copper and there is a lot of money wasted on it that could be far better spent elsewhere in the audio chain to yield better results. I find regular zip cord, normally I use 12g because there are some serious systems I push at times, with good soldered connections at each end work just fine. Buy a better driver, recap your crossover or get a Xilica and leave those expensive money pit wires on the dealers shelf.
I did a little experiment about a month ago. I had accumulated a nice 1970’s vintage system for my home office space, where I’m spending more time then ever since COVID-19. This system consists of the Luxman 50th Anniversary pieces from 1975 (M-4000, C-1010 and TU-110) and Pioneer CS-T8 speakers.
For the experiment I left out the other sources (Micro BL-91G and Nakamichi 700II) and only used FM signal (BBC radio 3). I hooked up these pieces with the type of generic signal cables and zip cords that were commonly used back then. So called ’audiophile’ cables hadn’t been invented yet, although the first Monster cables (the ones that turned green inside the insulator, remember?) were just being launched. The idea was to play the system as the original owners would have done in the ’70s. Sure enough, it sounds really nice, the musicality these Luxman pieces were renowned for is most evident. But it also sounded rather veiled, with plummy, ’one note’ bass and rolled off in the treble. Perhaps what you might expect from stuff this old.
Then I removed all those generic cables and replaced them with some of the modern cables I use with my other systems. These are modestly priced ’budget’ cables, like Kimber Select KS 1010, Nordost Heimdall and QED Silver Anniversary speaker cable. Nothing really fancy, but well regarded cables. What you will then hear is a complete transformation. Suddenly this otherwise identical system sounds much closer to what we regard as modern high end, with the kind of see through transparency and frequency extension that goes with it. And the size of the soundstage has exploded in all directions. That’s the impact of well engineered modern cables, even on electronics over 45 years old. And I couldn’t even change the power cables, which were still captive in those days. I guess it shouldn’t have amazed me, but it did. Unfortunaly I couldn’t try the effect of my top cables (JPS Aluminata) as these are all balanced, but it wouldn’t surprise me one bit if these ’old’ pieces would gain from that too.
With hindsight it’s amazing the audio community disregarded the importance of wiring for so long. But the industry has done its best to make up for lost time and profit. The current pricing in high end cables (and much else in audio I might add) is so ludicrous - even offensive - you need a strong stomach to navigate this ’market’, which is full of expensive crap waiting for the next sucker. Caveat emptor!
Hi, material wise yes, it is getting better with different methods in forging, elongation, pressing, annealing, shielding, jacketting. Cryo treatment is considered an advantage that was not popular in the 80's. All of them add to the final price - clever. so marketing wise yes. Now design wise not much as nearly all follow the same construction geometry techniques used then. But still a good cable newer or older makes a difference.
There’s dozens of controlled blind listening tests out there that answer this question beyond any doubt.
The fact you’re using the same cables since 1987 also must have some relevance to your question.
So why does it need to be asked again? And again? And again? And again?
What is it that you might expect ’improved’ cables to do?
Ask yourself why is it that after 50 years of alleged (advertised as, alluded to, supposed, suggested etc) continuous ’improvements’ that wire from decades ago remains indistinguishable from wire today?
It’s been well known for over a century that standard copper is one of the very best conductor materials available. High purity OFC copper could be deemed as overkill, but as it is reasonably affordable, shouldn’t we all be recommending it?
I’ve have over 30 years of experience of trying different cables and believe high purity OFC copper is all that I, or anyone else should ever need. Give or take the odd shielding issue depending upon the amplifier.
Yes, some exotic cables with odd resistance, capacitance, and inductance values may well sound different, but is that what anyone is really looking for?
I doubt it, and can only imagine what amplifier designers would say. In fact that’s not a bad idea, is it?
Simply ask the designer of your amplifier.
Providing they’re not selling their own $$ cables of course. As I learned the hard way with my experiences of Linn and Naim cabling.
Silver content in connectors (AudioQuest), control of directionality, cryogenics, polishing of conductor surfaces, cable cookers/burn in tracks, long grain copper, air dielectric, contact enhancers, suspension/elevating of cables. Most of those concepts are post 1980s.
You asked a generic question, followed by several more focused questions related to your specific cables. To your generic question; it depends on your definition of “superior.” Connectors have improved so superior in that way, yes. Otherwise, if you mean sonically and audibly, then probably yes also but maybe not in the multitude of ways or to the magnitude that cable manufacturers would have you believe. With power transmission (i.e., power cords and speaker cables), wire gauge seems to be the main factor with maybe some audible effects between solid core vs. stranded wire. With small signal cables, wire gauge, geometry and shielding seem to be key factors, but you don’t need to pay a lot to get those benefits. Many believe relatively pedestrian Mogami balanced cables sound just fine.Other stuff such as copper purity (beyond OFC), cryogenic treatment, wire direction, exotic wire shapes, exotic dielectrics, etc. seem to be audible to some but not all. Even if you hear differences, are those differences significant, are they really improvements, and are they worth the many thousands of dollars cable manufacturers have charged over the years? You need to listen and decide for yourself. I went down that road for awhile, wasted a bunch of time and money I will never get back, and decided I would rather enjoy the music than worry about cables.
Respectfully disagree, particularly when comparing low grade grainy copper to higher grade purity OFC or smooth OCC copper within interconnects and speaker cables. On a revealing audio system it exposes the difference in an interesting and unexpected way, fwiw.
Sitting here are the exact same interconnect cable designs in OFC and OCC grades, and swapping them on any input source or between preamp to amplifier, the difference is audible and notable with moderate hearing capability. As to what someone prefers, YMMV.
Coming back to the original question, yes I think you'll find that cables are better made now, there is more choice, and the prices are increasingly ludicrous as mentioned before. Nothing to prevent you from trying out and (if convinced) purchasing used -- I think you'll have fun and that's what it's all about, isn't it!