Ditto, Realremo. I got involved in Computer Audio because
everyone was saying, "I think the day will soon be upon us
when most new Music will only be available via the Internet"! It still sounds to me like an ultimatum. I was lied to as to the so-called convenience of PC Audio. Multiple Formats, multiple Software, multiple Media Players, multiple versions of said Media Players, Multiple
Sampling Rates, Multiple ASIO's, Multiple Drivers, complete lack of Manufacturer's instructions for proper
installation on multiple levels, and Z-E-R-O Manufacturer's
Customer Support for troubleshooting. Hard Drives Crash, Music Files Fragment, Viruses, Malware, Spyware. No CD has
-CONVENIENTLY- ever been affected by these things! Plug and
play has been replaced with a requirement to have a degree in Computer Science for the priveledge of listening to Music, or it will be if PC Audio fanatics have their way. This will NOT provide more Music to everyone, but reserve the priveledge of listening to Music to a select few-again if PC Audio Fanatics have their way. Why the obsession to severely limit the Formats that everyone else shall be regulated to? Why limit the Music for everyone else?
Perhaps Ego is involved here, not the sharing of the Music listening experience, but reserving it for the select few!
Ain't that special! No market ever survived by providing only one choice, and ultimately one choice only. That is not a market-that is a dictatorship! |
I did attend the recent RMAF and could play my CDs in 80% of the rooms I visited, there were many CD players available. |
You'll know when they're dead when you stop seeing them on the cover of Stereophile. If companies are still making them, it's worth the cost of R&D to make them. You have to wait until anyone who's 38 years old right now to die of old age. |
Pettyofficer: Oh no! Does computer audio mean that people will have to.....god forbid......LEARN SOMETHING? |
Here is a Lesson, Devilboy, in economics. You need to look beyond your nose of Computer Audio logic. I have no problem
with the Market sharing between CD, Downloading, and Music
Files. For those who claim CD sounds better, motivation to
improve the sound of Computer Audio. For those who claim
Computer Audio sounds better, motivation to improve the sound of CD. This is a win, win for the consumer-more bang for his buck. This is what stimulates the market-COMPETITION! Take it down to one exclusive Format-where is the motivation, where is the competition? A single
exclusive product doesn't make a Market. It destroys the
Market, destroys competition, and destroys the choices that
Consumers have. Computer Audio Fanatics are the only ones
preaching this exclusive form of what-marketing? Based on
Consumers being REGULATED to a single Format. I'm preaching
multiple Formats to give Consumers choices, not to exclude
all other Formats for the sake of one. My Philosophy is one of inclusion, yours is one of exclusion where everyone loses. Sheldon, Howard, and Leonard are losers no matter how sharp they are with a Computer. Why drag the rest of us down with them? Is this some kind of Geeks revenge or what-destroy the entire Audio Market for everyone instead of just sharing it? Ernst Stavro Blofeld would be proud, and you will get your Spectre Ring in the mail! |
Good points Petyofficer, I don`t have any issue at all with those who have choosen the computer audio route.
Just stop preaching to the many who still enjoy/prefer CDs, Red book in a good set-up still sounds very good and is quite riliable.
Best Regards, |
PO: Microdots, gel tabs, paper, shrooms, mescaline, nitrous, california orange, panama red perhaps? Whatever it is you have, let me know where and when we can get together to discuss this further.....fascinating. |
Right...If he doesn't agree with you, he must be on drugs. |
You just don't get it. I have no problem with someone who disagrees with me. Quite the contrary in fact. I WELCOME a difference of opinion, but take a look a some of the endless rants PO has made and tell me he is not on something. |
Not on something, Devilboy, maybe onto something. I still
listen to Computer Audio, but I am painfully aware that at
1/10th the tasking I could be listening to a CD. Computer
Audio is NOT convenient, and certainly NOT as user freindly as CD. Does the Format serve me, or do I serve the Format. I just prefer the Format serve me. I also prefer fewer steps between me and my enjoyment of Music.
Hell, leave the Computer learning to Bill Gates. He is in to that sort of thing, I am into listening to Music instead! Why force me to have to earn the priveledge of
listening to Music, by forcing me to have to learn Computer
Audio. For a beginner, it would still take 3 months to really learn it. It takes 5 seconds to pop in a CD. Common sense, path of least resistance, and working smarter not
harder. |
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with you PO. Popping in a cd is obviously easier than setting up a server/dac system. You have to admit thought, things sure look like they will go the computer/dac route....right? |
hi taters:
what is your real concern ?
is it that you will be forced into using a computer or server as a transport ?
or is it that the availability of cd players will decline over time ?
or is there another concern ?
i think the question you raise has no definitive answer. |
Well, given that you can still purchase thousands (if not millions of CDs) and that probably 98% of albums are still released on the medium, I'd say the CD player is far from dead. It is not the future, that's true, but that's a much different thing. Even though I'm good with computers, I will continue to use mine as my CDs aren't going anywhere and it's what I'm used to. Plus, it sounds great! |
Fusion10: In my opinion, the sales of cds don't necessarily mean that the sales of cd PLAYERS will continue. Think about it. When you have a hard drive based system you're putting the music into your computer by either downloading from the net, or burning from cds. You still need to get that music into your computer. So, many people with computers as their source are still purchasing cds. |
I think Pettyofficer and Fusion10 bring up good points; CD sources may not be the future but, the future of computer sourced audio is not quite here yet. We will know when it gets here because;
1. source material will be readily available by download,
2. there will be a convenient, quick, uniform, and somewhat idiot-proof method of accessing the source material, that includes easy access to the metadata, and
3. playback will sonically surpass that from good CD players.
I understand that you can't go from 0 to 100 mph in an instant, so I do appreciate that there are folks who are committed to making the computer thing work and that they are the ones working through the learning curve and moving the industry forward. I simply don't have the time or inclination to be involved at that level, yet. Therefore, when computer based sources become as easy as finding and playing a CD from my collection, and/or when the playback methods sonically exceed what I hear from my players, I will be ready to make the switch. |
Until there are commercially available music downloads with audio quality at least equivalent to CD's (which Apple, et al assuredly are not)and at a cost reasonably equivalent to CD's (which HD Tracks, et al most assuredly are not), neither CD's nor CDP's will be dead. If you use computer audio, you either have to rip a CD --which someone had to have purchased -- or download from an original sales source, which is expensive for good audio quality. This is the reality.
If the record companies had any brains, they would be selling direct downloads at CD quality bitrates, instead of letting Apple, Amazon, steal their profits.
Neal |
Devilboy, that's a good point. I'm not sure how sales of CD players are going (as opposed to CDs). However, there sure are lots of CD players still in production. I'm sure sales are not what they once were, but I would think they are still selling plenty of units, otherwise we would expect to see the supply dwindle more than it has. |
I remember when CDs first came out. The sound was atrousious, but it didn't matter to the Manufacturer's.
Everyone jumped on the bandwagon, and dumped their LPs.
It was only after a decade of listening to CDs with 10 or
12 bit resolution did anyone notice something amiss with
the Music. The formula was very simple, there was nothing to compete against CD, LPs were on their way out, so why
should manufacturer's waste profits to improve the sound of
CD? Now we understand the term, "Redbook CD Standard".
Same thing will happen to Computer Audio if it is the ONLY
Format available. A Monopoly of Products/Formats will only
lead to cheaper manufacturing, and less Sound Quality. A
decade later people will find something amiss with their
Computer Audio Music, and regress back to CD, just like
they are regressing back to LP. Manufacturers lose,
Customers lose, Sound Quality loses, Competition loses,
motivation to improve S.Q. loses-if everyone gets on the bandwagon of a Computer Audio Format Monopoly. Computer
Audio will only survive if it has something to compete against-a Monopoly Format aint it! |
Pettyofficer wrote: "A Monopoly of Products/Formats will only lead to cheaper manufacturing, and less Sound Quality. A decade later people will find something amiss with their Computer Audio Music, and regress back to CD". Gee, I agree with much of what you wrote in this thread, but I have a hard time with this statement. There is no analog poetry or magic in lasers and shinny plastic disks. The only thing I see that CD has going for it in the long run is the current standing stock of titles in a reasonably durable format. Hopefully we will progress forward to combine the ease of use of iTunes with the quality of HD formats.
Speaking of iTunes, it has been pretty well established in this and other threads that the stand alone CD player is dying as a tool for mass marketers to sell, and for the masses to buy to play music. The CD player is not being killed by HD tracks and low volume and difficult to implement audiophile computer software however. It is being killed by universial disk players, and by iTunes and all the iPods, iPhones, iMacs and yes, even PC computers that run this crappy format. A bit ironic isnt it. Remember when Steve Jobs wouldn't do color on the Mac until Apple could "do it right" in high resolution and high color density? Too bad Apple wasn't that descriminating with audio resolution in there products. Hopefully we are not stuck in an infinite loop of mediocrity. In any case, I do not believe "competition" for non-disk driven digital formats is going to come from either analog or redbook. |
"There is no Analog Poetry or magic in Lazers and shiny plastic disks". At 10 to 12 Bits (1985-1995) due to CD
monopoly at the time leading to cheaper Sound Quality-what
did you expect? LP was on its way out, supposedly! What
other ways did the manufacturers cheapen out on production? Proves my point that without competition a
Format Monopoly (Computer Audio Downloads) means big profits supported by low-low-low-low quality. A condition
that Manufacturers would love to recreate again. It means you end up with the short end of the stick, with no alternatives! |
Don't send the flowers just yet....
People tend to see less value in non-physical items, like music downloads and I note with interest that since it emerged in the 1990's digital music has been hugely popular with fans, but for online music companies and their investors it has almost never been profitable... |
The clear future since all computer files can go up to a 24 bit 192 kHz
Word length is night and day better sounding then red book cd.
This is why Bryston,came out with their great player as well as others to complement their
Dac or yours.By having no moving parts you dramatically lower the noise floor with a external hard drive, or thumb drive.This is the future
Hi Rez down loads ! ! |
I just want to mention mpegs I do not consider hi quality.
At Hd downloads every week they are adding on also at least several
Others.I ripped almost 800 CDs high quality flac files 10 at a time
Over a few weeks then it is permanent just back it up .
I am no computer wiz I just went on utube videos and watched how it is done. Well worth the effort. If you have a IPad or stood you can just look at all the albums including album art within seconds it is that easy. |
"This is the future, Hi Rez down loads!!". Echoes of 1985,
"Perfect Sound Forever!!" for CD. We got cheated with
10-12 Bit CD's being sold as 16 Bit due to a Format
Monopoly! All other Formats were being pushed out! Ditto
for Hi Rez Download Monopoly Format. Don't you get it-
Monopolies are really,really,really bad for the Consumer
and Sound Quality! Conversly they are really,really,really
Great for Manufacturing Profits. Unless you own stock in these Companies, you end up being the loser. Don't forget the CD debacle! Less Bang for the Buck really great-NUTS! |
there are some very high aound quality 16 bit cds from the following labels, that, i think will easily compete with hi res files.
here are some of the labels:
audio stacatto, glossa, opus 111.
there are also some excellent sounding cds on the harmonia mundi label.
yes the genre is "clasical", but the sound will not disappoint. |
I will never understand why Computer Audio Download
enthusiasts insist that all Consumers be forced to put
all of their eggs in one basket-AGAIN! Most of us got
RIPPED (Pun intended) with low quality CD's(1985) as
competing Formats were squeezed out. Some of us actually LEARNED something from the experience-Never bet the Farm (Sound Quality) on a brand new Format Monopoly (Proposed Computer Audio Downloads) in the absence of any alternatives, or competition. Let the Profit go into the Consumers back pocket (Sound Quality) instead of the Manufacturer's multi-billion dollar Bank Account-JUST ONCE-for cryin out loud! Make Computer Audio EARN its keep in
Sound Quality instead of just coast along with no competition! Stop trying to sell us out with Format Monopolies! You end up with the short end as we all do! |
I trust Manufacturer's to maintain High Sound Quality
Computer Audio Hi Rez Downloads, as much as I trusted them
to provide true Redbook 16 Bit CD's (10-12 Bit) back in 1985. With Downloads as the new Monopoly Format for all
new Music, Profits will take highest priority in a vacuum of any real competing Format. Sound Quality will be regulated to the lowest common denominator, much as it was
back in 1985. What, Manufacturer's will promise not to do it to us again? Hold them to that by supporting two
competing Formats! Don't blindly trust them again! |
My original CD player, sitting over in the other room, is a Magnevox made by Phillips....It is the original FD-1000 or FD-1001. It is a 14big player with 4x oversampling and a DAC per channel. This was the 'reference' machine against which all others were measured for quite a while. The Sony machines were non-starters and had some audible artifacts. My player would compare favorable to any made today, if I could find a laser for it.
Now, the real reason I write is that the first 3 CDs I bought, long ago in the early 80's are still good stuff. A pre-Cream Eric Clapton album, a soundtrack of 2001 Space Odyssey were both hi quality disks. No compression like modern sound wars stuff. The Clapton, especially, sounds like it was recorded not live, but RAW and in someones garage.
I suspect their will always be 'minority' formats. I know one person who still trys to maintain a BETA machine. CD players may join TTs on the endangered list. The only hangup may be PARTS, which ain't parts. I have a perfectly good second-system player sitting out for lack of a laser. |
on my Bryston player it tells you Exactly what rez you are getting so If I buy something it will be as described, also this is a Big point, no matter how good your error correction is it is still being player as as with tons of
noise ,platter wobble and switching going on inside it .I burned all my cds to a seperate usb drive and the program checks
every song bit for bit before it is approved once done you have a superb Hirez Flac file or whatever hirez format you choose .Also I never have to clear a cd or pick one up my Ipad Mpad program shows all the Allbum art. The only time I need to rip a cd is when it is not yet available and online
at Amazon I can buy like new cds for a 1/3rd used and once ripped which takes maybe 2 minutes it is permanent .I back up the cds to the main drive file ,and now I am even running a 256 gig
Solid state for the best storage out there .This is the future I tried going back ,to using a cd player it is like going back to the stone age, 600 + cds at my command
and sounds far better , and I have had several Hiend cd
systems - transport and dac and everyone that comes over agrees , Don't knock it until you try it . |
Please sell me your obsolete vinyl, cd's and hi-end CDP's/TT's's at a very good price since they are inferior and will be in a landfill soon :) I really don't mind having to get up and change LP's or discs. |
Simple Solution everyone. Don't make the same mistake twice
with a Computer Audio Download Format Monopoly, as was made
with a CD Audio Format Monopoly (1985). Music Manufacturer's will always be unscrupulous (10-12 Bit CD's)
Without competing Format they will cheapen Computer Audio
Download Format to maximize Profits every time. Eventually
everyone will tire of low quality Computer Audio Downloads.
Save Computer Audio Downloads Format by using competing Format (CD) as leverage to force Sound Quality of Downloads up-not down! Save both Formats or lose both! |
CD players are waning heavily in favor of computer audio. CDs themselves will still be around for quite a while until some new higher res music format eventually replaces it (when???).
It will be some time before all music is delivered electronically rather than in some physical format, hard to say when that will happen but eventually it will.
Meanwhile use of computers as the prime source for playing multiple music formats (including CDs ripped to various formats of increasing variable quality) will continue to grow gradually. |
If this is the case, Mapman, then you condemn Computer
Audio Download Format to the same exact mediocrate (and
same fate) as CD. Just give it 10 years (same as CD).
Nothing more need to be said if Computer Audio Format is
going to follow in the EXACT same footsteps as CD. You
were perhaps expecting a different inevitable result?
I have a Bridge that I can let you have real cheap.
Competition is the only saving grace for the Consumer, and
Sound Quality! So why do you want to throw away everyone's
ONLY saving grace, and leverage with Sound Quality no less? |
Petty,
Yay, you're back!
Get that music server working yet?
I can go to HDtracks and download albums today at higher res than CD if I chose.
What's the problem?
Do you expect some poor schmo in Kazakhstan (Borat say) to have to pay for higher quality recordings than he cares about?
I say let Borat have his lossy mp3s and cheap gear needed to play them. As long as I can have my Lamborghini, I am happy too. |
"I have a Bridge that I can let you have real cheap.
So do I. (Cant let Petty have a monopoly in the bridge market) :-) |
Gonna hold off on that Media Player (J.R. River Media Center Vers. 12....99). Ditto on the Sampling Rate of the
week from HD Tracks (A new DAC every week-Really?). Your
Download Format is dizzolving into ambiguity due to endless
revisions. Like buying a SACD Player while the Format is still in development (hope it is still compatible). People have no idea what it is they are buying with the all fluid endless revision that is the liquid Non-Format of Computer Audio Downloads. You haven't got a Real Format yet-making it extremely premature to get rid of current CD Format. |
I wonder with HD Tracks, how does a buyer know that these are truly mastered at the higher resolution that you are buying?
If they are jsut taking lower res masters and upsampling to higher res, then you may be actually worse off thatn before in that your sound is really no better but your data volumes and processing requirements have jumped considerably for considerable additional cost to you for little benefit.
Uncertainty about this is one reason I have yet to actually fork out any dollars for hi res files from HD Tracks. |
Are there two Mapmans? I thought you said, "I can go to
HDTracks and Download Albums today at higher res than CD
if I choose. What's the problem?". So-what is the problem?
If atleast some Standard isn't established for Computer
Audio Downloads, people will continuously be forced to endlessly chase their own tail buying new equipment of the week trying to keep up with the ever revisioning fluid
Computer Audio Download Non-Format. They won't know what to buy, they will get it wrong, they will get frustrated,
then they will get tired of it! Obviously, making up the
Computer Audio Download Non-Format up as you go along,
pretty much leaves the Hardware question (for the
consumer) in limbo. If Computer Audio Downloads fall flat
on their face, and CD Format gone, this will leave us with
no Format to listen to for our New Music! That is-unless it
is Blue-Ray Audio. Hey, read my previous Posts on this Thread if you want an alternative! SAVE BOTH FORMATS!
Don't be premature, and immature with the CD Format! You
are dangerously risking an implosion for all of us! |
Ive wondered the same thing Mapman. Exactly what is their source? Are they downloading an SACD, DVD-A, original masters on reel to real? What do they use as a source, and how is it handled? |
"Are there two Mapmans? I thought you said, "I can go to HDTracks and Download Albums today at higher res than CD if I choose. What's the problem?"." Yes, there is good mapman and evil mapman. You never know which will rear his ugly head! The essence of taijitu. Nothings perfect there are problems and unknowns with all. I'm just pointing out one worth consideration in this case. It doesn't matter what good or evil mapman thinks. Its inevitable that digital audio will continue to run its course whether I like it or not. I'm sure in 50 years, if we are all still around, there will still be something about it to fuss about, just like wondering today whether those NOS tubes from eons ago are really gold or just another man's garbage. |
Yeeeaahh, sort of like the impervious Housing Market-the
main reason everyone is selling on Audiogon? The impervious
Audio Market-is that like the unsinkable battleship? I have
gone through allot of Formats in my time. This will be the
first time that I see a rapidly evaporating Format (CD)
dissappearing before its replacement Format has even begun
to be finalized. I am used to seeing an overlap, not the vacuum of a big fat gap. I sense panick in trying to pull the CD Format so prematurely, like fear if people aren't
forced to Computer Audio Downloads soon enough to save it.
My fear is if Computer Downloads flop, and we are left with
NO FORMAT! Pretty risky business you guys are playing! |
Pettyofficer: This is just my opinion but....don't confuse the "death of cd players" with the "death of cds". Don't assume that the only way people get music into their computers is via downloading. We don't need cd players, we just need the cds themselves to burn into the hard drive of the computer. So, to hell with the cd player, as long as their are cds around to burn into my computer, I'm happy. |
Agree with Devilboy.
Will something to replace CDs for this eventually? Probably. Not sure what it will be though and it could be awhile.
331/3 lps were around about 30 years before CDs did them in for the most part. CDs will probably be around somewhat longer, and whatever replaces that somewhat longer still, etc.
That's progress, FBOFW. |
Look at it this way. 78 RPM records were generation 1 of mass recorded and marketed media. 331/3 lps generation 2.
CDs generation 3.
Most innovations start to get it mostly right usually about the third time around. CDs get it mostly right (except for the confounded packaging they come in which continues to mostly s---).
Downloading and computer audio is phase 4 which consists of mostly new ways of delivering and playing digital including introduction of higher res formats (hi res is still gen 1 so expect kinks for awhile as I alluded to earlier) and music servers.
A better vision for phase 5 is what I think we are all trying to imagine (except Pettyofficer who believes there is a conspiracy to prevent that). |
Of course they are dead. If any of you want to ensure your player receives a proper burial, send them to me. MSRP of 2000 dollars and above only |
Apple itunes, Amazon mp3s and file sharing are replacing cds for mainstream music listeners.
The remaining two large record labels could care less about the miniscule audiophile market. Let's hope HD Tracks succeeds and even gets some competition. |
I hear you, Mapman-Devilboy! Any conversation about CD Players always includes an Ultimatum about the CD Format as
opposed to Computer Downloading. CDs are prematurely
disappearing rapidly! Would like to go Computer Audio all of the way-just not sure if many Remastered CDs will be
available for Ripping a year from now. Many have to be
special ordered Today! Your moving too fast on CD Format before Downloading Format has been established. Ultimatum
means ending CD Format before Download Format begins. Mother Nature abhores a vacuum! It wont help either Format! |
"CDs are prematurely
disappearing rapidly! "
I think a lot of this is a result of teh music market being saturated more than anything specific to CDs other than they are the current format most impacted, especially by new major pieces of the pie like internet radio, and even used CDS that basically sound as good as new indefinitely and do not have to be replaced (unlike worn records). Plus all the other non audio entertainment available (all via digital mostly mind you) these days. How much time does anybody really have to watch and listen to all that stuff? I chose to mostly listen when I do have time. I am literally drowning in new music to listen to these days and it will surely take me years to just catch up if I never bought another new CD again, which I still do on occasion, but frankly most of my "new" music purchases are used CDs. I also download a pop/rock mp3 from amazon on occasion. I view that as the modern equivalent of buying a 45 rpm single back when I was a kid and starting my record collection. I've always liked having the option of buying singles and not albums when I like a particular track. |
The demise of the LP took a lot of stuff with it. I wonder what will the CD's demise take down with it. |
at what point will companies cease to produce cd players, dacs and transports ?
it would seem that dacs are thriving for obvious reasons and servers/computers are thriving as transports.
will there ever be a time when it will be impossible to buy an in-production cd player that only plays redbook ??? |
