Wow, the amount of assertions about audiophiles, in the comments here, is staggering. For those interested. Here is my take on what an audiophile is https://youtu.be/Xet2qXuFboEmy definition too thanks...
Are audiophiles crazy?
Don't take offense to this post if you identify as an "audiophile." I would say I'm an audio enthusiast, but not an audiophile.
To me, audiophiles are people who pride themselves in achieving the best possible sound quality. Terms like dynamics, punch, and smoothness are just the tip of the iceberg. The audiophile is usually interested in achieving subjectively better sound. How they go about chasing this is actually counter-intuitive. They go out and buy expensive speakers, flagship headphones, high-end amplifiers, and perhaps even real 20K-40K+ studio monitors. All the while, wanting to hear music the way it was recorded. But be forewarned - More accurate does not always mean "better sounding."
When they play their favorite music, to their dismay, it doesn't sound good enough. So they drop 10 to 15 grand on cables - which shouldn't make an audible difference anyway. But that new cable made everything sound warm and mellow. Now they're kind of happy. At this point, the audiophile is an "expert" basically a Sound Engineer, but only in his own mind (imagination). Every few months, upgrades are made on the main system - even if that means not having enough money for [insert important family obligations here]. Some believe they have the best systems in the world and even brag about it. I have met folks like this and I'd rather not be around them...more money than sense.
No matter how much I have, I always try my best to be humble and polite when in the company of other people.
Skeptical, passionate, and curious, they go out of their way to experience all of the wonderful snake-oil that audio manufacturers have to offer. After many years, they still can't pinpoint what they want their systems to sound like. In other words, what would be an ideal Harman target response curve for all of the genres of music they listen to? It becomes an almost never-ending quest for perfection - which is unattainable in a subjective way. You can have a system that is 99% accurate for Pro audio work - But you can never have a perfect system that everyone you know will enjoy. Invite all of your friends and a few family members - let them listen to your best system and ask for honest opinions.
I find joy in knowing some of them will spend thousands of dollars on "upgrades" that won't matter. I laugh about it. And I suppose this is good for the economy - with the inflation on consumer goods always on the rise, it's nice to know we have a bunch of dedicated folks like audiophiles; who can part with their money so easily. They make great customers but terrible salespeople. Too many I've met in real life can't make convincing arguments to prove things they believe in.
Tell me about your experience with them, or if you were a hardcore audiophile. I have busted tons of myths in real life - let alone online forums...and eventually was praised for it. Again, I think this is a fantastic community; so I enjoy sharing my thoughts here on audiogon :)
Lastly, I have this quote to share - which I think sums up the struggle with audio reviews/impressions/viewpoints etc:
To me, audiophiles are people who pride themselves in achieving the best possible sound quality. Terms like dynamics, punch, and smoothness are just the tip of the iceberg. The audiophile is usually interested in achieving subjectively better sound. How they go about chasing this is actually counter-intuitive. They go out and buy expensive speakers, flagship headphones, high-end amplifiers, and perhaps even real 20K-40K+ studio monitors. All the while, wanting to hear music the way it was recorded. But be forewarned - More accurate does not always mean "better sounding."
When they play their favorite music, to their dismay, it doesn't sound good enough. So they drop 10 to 15 grand on cables - which shouldn't make an audible difference anyway. But that new cable made everything sound warm and mellow. Now they're kind of happy. At this point, the audiophile is an "expert" basically a Sound Engineer, but only in his own mind (imagination). Every few months, upgrades are made on the main system - even if that means not having enough money for [insert important family obligations here]. Some believe they have the best systems in the world and even brag about it. I have met folks like this and I'd rather not be around them...more money than sense.
No matter how much I have, I always try my best to be humble and polite when in the company of other people.
Skeptical, passionate, and curious, they go out of their way to experience all of the wonderful snake-oil that audio manufacturers have to offer. After many years, they still can't pinpoint what they want their systems to sound like. In other words, what would be an ideal Harman target response curve for all of the genres of music they listen to? It becomes an almost never-ending quest for perfection - which is unattainable in a subjective way. You can have a system that is 99% accurate for Pro audio work - But you can never have a perfect system that everyone you know will enjoy. Invite all of your friends and a few family members - let them listen to your best system and ask for honest opinions.
I find joy in knowing some of them will spend thousands of dollars on "upgrades" that won't matter. I laugh about it. And I suppose this is good for the economy - with the inflation on consumer goods always on the rise, it's nice to know we have a bunch of dedicated folks like audiophiles; who can part with their money so easily. They make great customers but terrible salespeople. Too many I've met in real life can't make convincing arguments to prove things they believe in.
Tell me about your experience with them, or if you were a hardcore audiophile. I have busted tons of myths in real life - let alone online forums...and eventually was praised for it. Again, I think this is a fantastic community; so I enjoy sharing my thoughts here on audiogon :)
Lastly, I have this quote to share - which I think sums up the struggle with audio reviews/impressions/viewpoints etc:
“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.”
- Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher
Showing 10 responses by mahgister
Check this out!A pure delight.... Thanks.... |
Talking about audiophiles, in my experience we cannot make generalizations. I have been an audiofile for 20+ years, and have a large number of audiofile friends, and have yet to see two audiofiles who think alike, who hear alike, and who have the same priorities and attitude. Some people can hear a difference, while others cannot.The majority of people cannot hear (what I consider) huge differences, have zero auric memory retention, while a few have incredibly sharp hearing and can retain what they heard for years and make accurate comparisons from their memory.i will only add to this excellent post that save for some exceptional human with superior innate ability, the ability to perceive and memorize sound impressions are also a LEARNED ability in a specific context and environment.... |
Speaking of happy meal, let’s see mastering92’s system, several images, and a complete listing of the system from first power cord through to speakers.Is it not extraordinary to propose judging someone opinion looking at his "branded name" audio system? this is so ignorant and childish, i will not go further... Save to say that this reflect a complete misunderstanding of audio.... Acoustic control is the key to determine hi-fi experience not the cost of the speakers.... Why @douglas_schroeder . How would that change anything? Is this one of those No True Scotsman things, or is it a Straw Man. Many musicians have crappy home systems, but hearing more acute to changes. Does that means their opinions are worthless?it is reassuring that wiser judgement are indeed possible, wiser than appearance of Hi-FI... |
I said...All in life is perspectives...And truth encompass all perspectives and go beyond.... Someone in sound design or management must have a set of rules and obey them...He can afford some tools which are not accessible to me anyway...His goals are not mine... Someone in his room with his own ears with a very limited budget like myself cannot afford to obey the same rules... For example i cannot afford a very good electronic equalizer, then i created a mechanical one at no cost.... I was in a situation where ONLY my ears could help me.... By the way i used an idea of Helmholtz that is even not described correctly save for a few words in the Alten book.... The main acoustical factor i used in my experiment is not even named in the Alten book: "Listener envelopment" factor LEV ...It is a correlate of the source width factor ASW (which is mention in the Alten book), in relation to timing perceptive tresholds by different frontwaves...Not surprizing if the three scientists investigating these tresholds published their article in 2008 after the redaction of the Alten book which is in no way a book about acoustic anyway....The Alten book about media is 750 pages, my book on Timbre has 800 pages... Alten treat timbre perception matters in few paragraphs.... All is perspective.... Then, like i said each one of us has his perspective....In mine Ears are the crux of the matter.... By the way i succeeded to give myself audio top experience at no cost....With only my ears... I am used then to eat my own prepared meal....😊 Audio musical perception is conditioned first and last by acoustic control , not electronic design, which is only second in the audiophile or listener perceptive experience .... |
Are audiophiles crazy? NO, they are like any social distribution of people, not less not more.... They are not crazy anymore than any other social groups especially if we include all categories in the word "audiophile" and not only the opposite side from ours when we want to fit "them" in the category "crazy " and excluse ourself too easily from this "craziness"...If you inhabit this thread regularly you are an audiophile sorry even denying it... I created my own system with ONLY low cost few bucks devices or homemade one...Even with crystals by the way....I say that to provoke some limited mind here but i really did extensive experiments with them.... 😁😊 My "Helmholtz mechanical equalizer" for example is made of discarded plumbers pipes and tubes, straws and yes, of cardboard discarded rolls of toilet paper... The resulting S.Q. of my system in my controlled room is near anything i ever experienced in audio system or even exceed it .... I listened only to my EARS to create it.... Not to "objectivist" or " subjectivist" warring sides....Not to technocratic limited and limiting dogmas nor to costly upgrading fads.... I never bought and included in my system what some called "tweaks", i replicated or squarely created my own working embeddings devices control in their 3 dimensions: mechanical,electrical and especially acoustical.... Am i crazy? My 500 bucks system is better or near AYTHING i ever listen to....Is it perfect? No but anyone listening to it will be shoked by the ratio sound quality versus cost.... Guess who appear crazy to me ? Anyone who dont know that audio is mainly acoustic science.... Anyone who mock someone without any experimenting of his own to support his claim against someone which is experimenting himself... Anyone who is ignorant of basic science or anyone who confuse science with only what he knows himself about even if he knows much and use science to mock other impressions or experiments ....Understanding and known science are NOT the same phenomenon at all....Living an experience and trying to explain it is not the same thing at all....Understanding and known science intersect they never confuse one another... Anyone who speak of "placebo" against "tweaks" or anyone who vouch for some very costly audio product for the only one miraculous solution....Cardboard toilet paper rolls wisely acoustically used are the true miracles for me.... Anyone trusting "blind test" against his own ears in a field where our ears are not only the main tool but the seat of the experience itself... Any superstitious zealot of technology over creativity, of consumerism over trust in ourself.... |
But to suggest that there are not super-listeners is absurd - are there not those who are gifted in mathematical ability, musical ability, athletic ability, intelligence, empathy, and other human traits? I will only add to your excellent post that save for some innate ability, listenings is FOR ALL a learming experience LINKED to a known environment, our room+gear, where we are king.....Even if we are not a bat.... I am very conscious that changing conditions of listening, other room, other gear, impede greatly my ability at first.... Listening, not only is learned, but it is an HABIT, and like all habit is greatly alerted by change of any kind, like a change of an acoustical setting in my room, or greatly perturbed and at lost if confronted with a totally new environment.... Learning take some time and integration/assimilation... Owning relatively "educated ears" is normal for all of us then and it has nothing to do with the easy and stupid accusation to own a pair of "golden ears".... I have no pretense to this, but i know how my system sound very well in my actual room....I am wedded with him.... Some affirming that we cannot trust our ears confuse general aspect of some science in a precise perspective, which is rigorous testing, with some well known common fact: we must use our ears in everyday context; they use some science out of his context to negate some simple fact linked to another perspective which is :our ears can learn.... We can and we could, we must trust our ears in some precise context: learning how to create and control our own audio system....Like a musician trust his ears to choose an instrument and not an another one.... Our ears are not a tool in the musical experience but way more: a part of ourself ....No other tool can replace it ever, save for misappropriate use of otherwise useful electronic tool in some task they will never be able to compete: our own satisfying perceptive experience and learning process... |
When a debate about cables begins i know that there will be NO understanding at all...Not even of the small differences cables could make and they could make a small one one indeed...Tomorrow it will be tubes/versus S.S. or analog/vinyl... No end to ignorance it seems........ 😊 Control vibrations,decrease the noise floor of the electrcal grid, and control acoustic.... This is the problem not cables, analog/digital or S.S. versus tubes... If your gear is "relatively good" it does not matter what branded name you had in your system save for these 3 problems to be solved and after that heaven is there.... |
I guess i am no more an audiophile now... After 7 years of search with 5 years of frustrations, and 2 years of full time listenings experiments, my goal of audiophile is reached... I am very proud to be a simple music lover now... My quest for sound is over in his frantic phase....I succeeded with a 500 bucks system and my embeddings controls to rest near the peak of audiophile experience.... When no system at any cost trouble much your sleep it is over.... My system is very well embedded especially acoustically, and acoustic is the underestimated "sesame" key to audiophile experience, not money.... The most important asset is not a piece of gear it is a dedicated room, and acoustically controlled... Upgrading course is mostly for people who has not realized for themselves this simple fact yet... Any basic good pieces of gear will do if acoustic is controlled... Nevermind the piece of gear, none will satisfy you if acoustic is badly controlled and the most underestimated fact is no one knows without experiencing it first that acoustic is badly controlled...The sound of a room could seems ok without being ok at all....We cannot know what we have never experienced.... By the way most "objectivist measuring obsessive" audiophile or "subjectivist upgrading obsessive" one are on the same boat in regards to acoustic ignorance being the KEY....It is my personal experience with audio threads... Some even compared costly gear in badly controlled room.... The market , the reviewers, even the consumers boasting about their gear, no one has an interest to this simple truth: acoustic control.... It will stop frantic expanse toward upgrades, all franctic boasting about gear, and the reviewers cannot review room instead of gear.... 😁 There exist 3 working embeddings dimensions for any audio system: mechanical and electrical, the acoustical one exceed even the other 2 in powerful transformative effect... Calling an acoustic control device a "tweak" or a "placebo" effect is pure ignorance..... My best to all.... «Why are you so different than us Groucho?»-Chico Marx «Because my watch give me the 25 th hour»-Groucho Marx 🤓 |