I just got off that thread it is funny that the Legacy's were also discussed.
The Legacy is a bargain for the price and the sheer amount of great things that the speakers do. The Legacy is voiced on the warm smooth side, big sound stage, fantastic warm rhythmic bass, very good resolution.
The Paradigm 3F, more image precision, scary holographic, greater treble precision and speed, deep tighter drier bass.
It is a tough choice, the Paradigms sound absolutely amazing on great recordings, the Leagacy's are more forgiving of bad ones.
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Nitewulf,
Audio Doctor in Jersey City?
I was blown away by Dave's knowledge and selection. He opened up a lot of ideas I was never thinking about such as streaming, I have always been a vinyl guy, his demo with T+A digital has me thinking.
Over the years I have visited a few of the best dealers in the NY/NJ area, I think Audio Doctor has one of the best selections, not to mention his demos systems all sounded fantastic, did you see Audio Doctor's Home Theater demo it was amazing!
I also get the feeling that Dave is after what is best for his customer, I went to visit a very famous dealer mentioned countless times in these posts, and I got the feeling, if it ain't Vandersteen I must not be hearing correctly.
After demoing a pair of $14k Quattros, I concluded the $7k Legacy's sounded better and cost less which would be heresy to mention on a Vandersteen post to even look at another line of speakers. Personally I don't care, the brand doesn't mean squat to me, only the sound, I don't think a lot of guys on these forums feel that way.
Sfall Audiotroy, one of Dave's buddies, mentioned on a Wilson post that the poster who was looking at Sashas and Alexias for a small room, consider demoing a pair of the Paradigm 9H and the people on that post just got hostile and nasty and in that thread, started attacking Audiotroy.
I would conclude that if people aren't open to looking and evaluating a competitive product or shoot down such an idea, their minds are made up already that their product is the best.
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Oops I stand editorially corrected.
I found it very unusal to come right out and say that the Personas are as good as the Magicos he owns, many reviewers wouldn't come out and say that for fear of alienating another advertiser.
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Lets look at the same posting, I wonder if Cstooner is on your payroll? Or Gbu or one of the zillion other apparent Vandy Fanboys who all sing your praises?
Your store has a reputation, I also talked with Finxibn, who has been over to your store and was pitched the same combination, he instead bought WIilson 8, with Pass Labs and an Arc, which can be considered good or bad depending on your perspective, you love Vandersteen and it certainly seems that your cadre of guys supports your assertion. I do I find them pleasant speakers with a rolled off top end. The Legacys are warm, with much greater bass response for half the price, and they are voiced like a Vandersteen which is to say very musical.
I heard many times Vandys at Sound by Singer in NYC when I was buying my Audio Physics, good speakers they are the holly grail they are not just one flavor, by the way is Gpgr4blu on your payroll as well?
Lets see everywhere in the world Ctstooner, he is posting in support of Ayre, and Vandersteen in your payroll? Do I have to list his 1200 posts to support my claim?
As per making me happy as a pig, I will stand by what I have heard I like vintage amplifiers and I am a big fan of the Legacy’s they sound amazing, and I would put it to you anyway you like they do compare with many way more expensive speakers out there and it is not just me that is saying it.
Hey I like the Audio Doctor, I like their approach and I haven’t yet purchased anything from them. After talking with Dave and Troy, they do not have a system, they sell many different brands and let the customer decide on what is best for them. I never heard either of these gentleman saying one brand is better than another, or anything like that it was all about choices and each product serves a different niche.
I heard PSB, Dali, Legacy and Paradigm so did Nitewulf, it seems that Audio Doc is brand agnostic. |
Gee Gpgr4blu you don't have any relationship with Audio Connection? Your post history says a rather different thing, it says flat out that you are buddy buddy with Audio Connection, and perhaps it explains your down right hostility to anyone who is extolling Audio Doctor their friends, customers, and products. The Wilson post was one line about a pair of speakers that offered room correction and cost $20k less than the Alexias, with a suggestion to check them out, and all of a sudden Gpgr4blu starts attacking? Your honesty is more than suspect, you claim " I do not have any relationship with Audio Connection March 11, 2017 Yet on Nov 30 2015 Going to NYC from the outback of Oregon.
Agree with Audio Connection as one of the finest shops in the NY metro area. John and Nick are fabulous and I've purchased more stuff from AC than any other dealership. But everything depends on what the customer is looking for. When in NYC, one s...
I find that very interesting, first you say you don't have a relationship with that store, and 2 years ago you do and you state "purchased more stuff from AC than any other dealership." So which is it? Unlike you I make no pretense that I found a superb shop and a friend at Audio Doctor, and for a number of reasons I don't hide it, Dave has a wonderful shop and to go there is a remarkable experience: Dave is supper nice, I came in and was offered coffee and tea the first time I came to the shop in the morning, and listening with with another gentleman one night I was offered some nice sipping Tequila, we just hung out and listened, talked and sipped Tequilla for almost two hours just the three of us, spinning tunes and talking about audio and music. To be able to hang out in a really nice store, late at night, in a private home, with four sound rooms and then watching a movie in their $100k home theater room is totally fun, I was never pressured to purchase anything, and Dave is more like an advisor then salesman, so yes I am going to promote Audio Doctor as a unique experience, I never got that feeling from Singer, or Lyric or Stereo Exchange or any of the other NJ shops. Audio Doctor is a gem and they should be promoted and lastly to be able to listen to many different brands of speakers and never once being told that one product is better than another is a refreshing experience. |
I am wasting your time, it seems like every time you have to have the last word in every post you comment on
I re-read the Wilson thread, Audiotroy made one mention of the Paradigms there was ONE MENTION of the speakers by Audiotroy, that does not seem like someone who in your words was "shilling" anything, and then lo and behold you swoop in an bash him for offering a possible alternative solution to a set of Wisons, and then you go on to attack him in multiple posts, to which Troy seems to be trying to defend his position.
The Pardigms, as confirmed the TAS are a rival to the Magico, and hence all the other well respected high end reference speakers, and for a dealer to offer a perspective on a product that could work well in a small room, and maybe be better for the poster, that seems to me to be a good thing and not about hijacking a thread but instead offering up a new possibility.
In the TAS article Cordesman was very impressed by just how fantastic it is to have room correction built into a set of speakers I don't know that much about acoustics but I would think that would be a huge advantage if my room was a small one.
To me, as well as I am sure to many other people on these forums would welcome the consideration of a product that may not have been on their radar and I see it here all the time, without anyone mentioning someone is hijacking a thread, or selling or "shilling." It seems to me you have an axe to grind with these people, or do you just have a policy to be the self appointed guardian of Audiogon?
I think Nitewulf was pretty thrilled to be considering the Legacy Focus Signatures, which weren't on his radar, didn't Audio Doctor suggest those speakers, and wasn't Nitwulf blown away by them and on Nitewulf's post someone chimed in mentioning ATC. I don't see Nitewulf raising a fuss about what anyone is saying.
You posted again in defense of one of your own earlier statements, either you do have a relationship with Audio Connection, or you don't it is that simple, and your biases against Audio Doctor is startling and highly combative, again I find this rather odd when you say you have never in been to their shop and have never worked with them on a personal level, you are turned off by them "selling" I don't find it that way and I am sure Finibx who said he too had a wonderful experience at their shop and obviously was blown away by the sound of the Paradigms, does seem to disagree with you.
Perhaps I came out of the woodwork to start posting about finding a great dealer, because I became so turned off to the shopping experience that I find in most dealers, and I stopped shopping completely for high end audio equipment. Dave offers lots of different choices, and his approach was to carefully offer his take on the sound of each both good and bad points were raised.
Your post was in defense of your own words in extolling Audio Connection two years ago, and then you say it is because you like Audio Research gear, " I had purchased more gear there than at any other dealer "(
it seems to me that you could also have purchased ARC gear from any bunch of other ARC dealers and yes you did mention other dealers in your post, so what. If you like Audio Connection that is fine, just don't hide that you have had or have a working relationship with them and I am sure you wouldn't keep on mentioning them or purchasing products from them if you didn't like them, It is fine to direct traffic to them, just as I will in support of the shop I like.
I bought at Sound by Singer, and at other dealers, that is not the point, It is Audio Doctor's very personal approach that I like and why I will most likely be purchasing a set of new speakers from them, how many dealers go out of their way to make you fresh coffee, and sipping Tequila, and allowed me and another guy to literally hang out there for hours just talking and listening to music, I was never asked to purchase a thing, not once, I will once I have my finances in place.
As per your five buddies, please enjoy your relationship with Audio Connection, it seems that Audio Doctor is gaining their own group of supporters who like their approach, and that includes myself, finibx1, niitewulf and others.
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I guess you don't read very well, I stated that Audiotroy made ONE POST on the Wilson Thread BEFORE YOU started your attack on him which then lead to a tit for tat back and forth between you two, just like you are doing now, it seems that Audio Troy was trying to defend himself and had to reply to your unceasing comments just like what is exactly happening now, which lead to the 12 posts you mentioned,
I didn't see it the way you saw it, I saw a rebuttal to your coming at the guy every time and how do you back up your position by stating your position.
You could have just let it go, with his ONE initial comment, but you are the self appointed master of Audiogon and its propriety, Maybe the OP might have found the Paradigms even more to his liking than the Sashas, which I like by the way, but who knows, but you do seem to get your message across you are somehow pissed that Audio Doctor is somehow 'trolling." and it was your incessant bullying that turned people off.
Lets see if another dealer, mentions a product on a post that is about that product that is okay, Not Trolling, but mentioning another product that may be better, less expensive, prettier, better built, or more to a particular persons taste, is wrong and bad and is trolling by your definition.
That doesn't seem much like a forum that seems like a bunch of toadies preaching the same dogma and not learning anything.
Or that fact that a dealer in your mind can't voice on opinion on a product because that is shilling, I don't know about you but if I wanted to get accurate information on a car repair I wouldn't ask my buddy, but go to a trained mechanic.
A dealer may or may not have skin in the game, depending on location, I am sure a guy living in NY is going to purchase sound un-heard a set of exotic and expensive speakers from a guy in Detroit? Also I don't think that is allowable either.
I would never be upset if someone chimed in and mentioned that I check out X, Y or Z if I am in the process of buying something I would evaluate any bit of advice if that advice made sense.
It seems that Nightwulf, found the Audio Doctor and was introduced to Legacy speakers that were never on his radar and now is considering them was that due to an Audio Doctor post? If it was I guess trolling or commenting then might be beneficial.
As per my shopping experiences, I went to all the major NY stores before I feel in love with the Audio Physics, that I bought from Andy, who by many accounts is an over bearing sales guy, he was very nice to me.
I found most of the NY dealers to have sales people that didn't seem to care very much about the demo or about the sound, and I visited CSA, Nexus and a few others in NJ and wasn't too kean on what I heard there either.
So it comes down to your bashing is based on: "Just to be clear, my antipathy towards Audiodoctor is not because I prefer another particular dealer, it's because I get very upset when threads that I'm participating in and enjoying the back and forth with my fellow Goners-- are trolled--especially by dealers who should know better. "
Wow that seems awfully small of you, you said you have and will not visit their shop, because the guy is what? passionate about his products and extols them at shows? You said hypebolic?
I don't know about you but I would take an excited, passionate sales guy over some zombie who wouldn't be able to guide me in the first place.
If you went to their shop, listened to their setups, and even know about their experience, then maybe you could make a useful comment, on what matters which is the sound and non reputable stores don't carry one half the superb products that Audio Doctor sells.
And as per sales tactics, again I didn't get a single one, having been to their shop three times and spending hours there listening to music and talking audio, I was never once asked to purchase anything. So your mileage may vary!
Are we done now?
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I would agree with you on principle, however, I have been told that they are going to be very limited in production so that should keep them relatively scarce.
Vanity does seem to be a large part of this industry, personally I don't give a dam about that stuff, to me it is about the sound and technology,. and if someone was to suggest something I would like better I would move out of that product and buy the new. Who cares if it is a Wilson, a Focal, Magico, or a Paradigm these are just tools and that is all they are.
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If you would like to discuss, the Paradigms and how the press is validating their ascendancy to that of a world class loudspeaker builder, please feel free to chime in.
As per the speakers I only know what I heard at Audio Doctor's showroom they are very impressive, and I think we will be seeing a lot more rave reviews on them from the rest of the press over time as more and more reviewers will be exposed to this new line.
As to what people will like they are remarkably transparent so I am sure the Magico, Focal, Rockport guys will love em. and perhaps the Vandersteen, Harbeth, more musical camp will probably find them too transparent.
I think it is going to be interesting to see how the market reacts.
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Again, we agree to disagree, I have never in the 20 years of being an audiophile and an occasional shopper, living in this area, found a kindred spirit such as in Dave and Audio Doctor.
Never was I given a hard sell, as you described, and he proved in doing demos that little changes in system setups and pairings could totally change the sound, we did a shoot out between Wireworld and Audioquest Cables and the differences were easily audible and it was instructive and thusly changed my biases towards cable upgrades, I can't ever remember a dealer actually doing a cable demo everyone is always trying to sell me new speakers or components, not cables and power conditioning as a next possible step.
Dave felt more to me as someone who was committed to the art of music reproduction, and the fact that these guys chose to work with lesser known but famous brands such as ATC, and Paradigm, says to me it is more about the sound then the brand, until now who ever thought of Paradigm as making world class speakers? And I can't ever remember anyone selling ATC in the New York metro area, I have seen lots of B&W, I have seen Harbeth and Spendor, never ATC.
I really don't understand your resentment of Dave, and unless he went out of his way to treat me differently I am very shocked by how you feel, I talked with Finibx after meeting him at the shop, and his story is similar to mine, he told me Dave came to his house and re set up Wilson 8 didn't charge him a thing, and now his Wilsons sound significantly better.
Andy on the other hand seemed to always be pushing me to spend more, and encouraged me to always be changing components. I ultimately bought a pair of Virgos and Scorpios from Andy, but I never got the feeling that Andy was in it for my best interest rather than his. He is a fascinating man and can be quite engaging.
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I haven't bought anything, yet.
I don't know how you could say the Legacy's are bright, the Aeris and the Focus use the same midrange and tweeter and they sound very Vandersteen like, big sound stage, warm and very liquid in the treble. So are you basing what you heard at a show or at a dealers, and at a dealers it would also depend on what equipment they were using at the Audio Doctor show room they are delicious sounding, and are anything but bright.
Maybe your are confused with the older models which do not use the newer Heil drivers?
As per the Paradigms not be half that of the Quattros, how can you make that statement, Cordesman said they are among the best speakers at any price,?
Perhaps you heard them with less than flattering gear, or the pair wasn't broken in. At the Audio Doctor showroom they were amazing, completely holographic, smooth, with great bass and thrilling dynamics.
They sound totally real. So could it be that your experience is very different based on where you heard them?
As per Wilson's not being dynamic? What they are known for being very dynamic.
Why don't you visit their showroom and see for yourself, I would be delighted to meet you there and introduce you.
Did Audio Plus ever distribute Paradigm, I thought they always did Focal?
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Cstooner, I hope that clarifies my position, I thank you for your service to the country, and you do sound like a terrific and very interesting man.
I also must apologize if I mentioned your name without knowing you, I was just trying to make a point about some of the fan boys here.
I am not on anyone's payroll, but like you, I have never found a store where it was more about me, and my experience of having fun and learning about and playing music, never found that degree of civility in most of the stores, and I think Audio Doctor is unique place so like you I am vocal and I will try to promote them as much as possible.
We should all just visit more of the shops and try to keep an open mind. I know how I like and what I like I am open to listen to and consider anything. |
Ctstooner I am glad you love Johny and love your gear, that is not the point, the point I was raising, is that there are plenty of guys on these forums that love their dealers, and are very vocal about their support.
And I am not trying to say anything other than you are friends with this one particular dealer, the fact that he or any other dealer is doing anything for you because of it is between the both of you.
As I mentioned, the nice folks at Audio Doctor, treated me more as a friend then as a customer, and have been very hospitable, other then having Dinner there, I have been given the opportunity to hang out anytime and just watch a movie in their home theater room as well as spending hours listening to music.
All the New York stores seemed to be more with an agenda to make a purchase, then I have found with many of the NJ dealers, high rents?
My point in some of these posts is not to denigrate someones choices but to point out as Troy did that we should all be open to the possibility of enjoying the sound and qualities of other products and you should be loyal to what sounds good to you and not just to a product.
What bothers me as I mentioned before is the narrow minds of some of the people on these forums.
I am a photographer I do not care which brand of camera I use they are tools, and over the years I have used different brands and quite frankly I have never seen such polarizing views on brand loyalty as to what I have seen here.
To me there is no one brand that is better, I know you love Vandersteens, but how objectively have you listened to the competition, how do you know if you might not like a pair of similarly voiced speakers such as the Legacy's unless you have also gone down that path?
Like you I have my bias both pro and con to many of these dealers, I never felt warm at Lyric or Stereo Exchange, nor did I find great sound at either of these, I found Innovative also to be a bit on the weird side, l I did have a positive experience at Singer, I would not go there again, as their new store is a shell of what they once were, and they have very little that I can afford that I think I would actually purchase, and Andy I know would not let me come in time and time again to just listen without making a purchase.
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