"Luke, use your ears!" ;)
I’ll add this, your comment, "Why in the audio world do people have such furvor over what they buy with the belief that their product and only their product is the best? In the camera world it seems much more fluid with people changing camera brands without ever starting a written riot if someone dares to bring up another brand or question their choice," is one of the more refreshing I have seen in a long time. Kudos for expressing such a mature perspective on electronics hobbies. :)
Because the media we use is invisible, audiophiles have the need to describe it, of course, but also imo take umbrage far too easily with anyone who does not "see" it similarly.
I just found a pair of 3.7i Maggies for $4,000 so I have no dog in the fight between the 2 you are considering but I have been reading this guy's listening.selection odyssey:
I just got off that thread it is funny that the Legacy's were also discussed.
The Legacy is a bargain for the price and the sheer amount of great things that the speakers do. The Legacy is voiced on the warm smooth side, big sound stage, fantastic warm rhythmic bass, very good resolution.
The Paradigm 3F, more image precision, scary holographic, greater treble precision and speed, deep tighter drier bass.
It is a tough choice, the Paradigms sound absolutely amazing on great recordings, the Leagacy's are more forgiving of bad ones.
Kuppe, I also am quite torn between the same two speakers. I believe we perhaps went to the same dealer. As great as the Personas sounded, I thought the Legacy Signatures will just be a bit more easy to live with on a day to day basis, as they are a bit forgiving. Frankly I thought their slightly more musical, enveloping tone was so inviting and lovely. Also quite holographic and transparent, I assume due to the Air Motions.
To take nothing away from the 3Fs, with good recordings, they were just as inviting and smooth. The laser sharp imagery is out of this world.
" Why in the audio world do people have such furvor over what they buy with the belief that their product and only their product is the best?"
Because for them it probably is the best.
That said, can you give me an example of people saying only their product is the best? I can't recall anyone making a statement like that.
Audio Doctor in Jersey City?
I was blown away by Dave's knowledge and selection. He opened up a lot of ideas I was never thinking about such as streaming, I have always been a vinyl guy, his demo with T+A digital has me thinking.
Over the years I have visited a few of the best dealers in the NY/NJ area, I think Audio Doctor has one of the best selections, not to mention his demos systems all sounded fantastic, did you see Audio Doctor's Home Theater demo it was amazing!
I also get the feeling that Dave is after what is best for his customer, I went to visit a very famous dealer mentioned countless times in these posts, and I got the feeling, if it ain't Vandersteen I must not be hearing correctly.
After demoing a pair of $14k Quattros, I concluded the $7k Legacy's sounded better and cost less which would be heresy to mention on a Vandersteen post to even look at another line of speakers. Personally I don't care, the brand doesn't mean squat to me, only the sound, I don't think a lot of guys on these forums feel that way.
Sfall Audiotroy, one of Dave's buddies, mentioned on a Wilson post that the poster who was looking at Sashas and Alexias for a small room, consider demoing a pair of the Paradigm 9H and the people on that post just got hostile and nasty and in that thread, started attacking Audiotroy.
I would conclude that if people aren't open to looking and evaluating a competitive product or shoot down such an idea, their minds are made up already that their product is the best.
Kuppe38, yes. Actually to be honest I wasn’t expecting to like the Legacy Signatures that much. But they have this wonderful airy, open, warm, engaging quality to them. And they are very resolving as well! I was using Melody Gardot, where you could hear the sharp intakes of breath, hands sliding over the bass guitar. Persona 3Fs are different beasts, guitar tones seemed to cut through the air, they are very holographic. Sounded great with all the well recorded stuff for sure. On Waltz for Debbie all the background ambient twinkling of glasses and laughter from the audience could be heard clearly.
However, bottom end and loudness are important for me, and to that end the Signatures would work better compared to the 3Fs for me, which are just much smaller obviously. And the 5Fs are much more expensive, so...it’s a difficult choice.
The Dalis for me were good, but unsure if they’d be a significant upgrade to what I have, as well as if I actually liked their presentation as a whole. I think they’d be great for jazz, acoustic etc...but not so great with rock, electronic.
I was wondering if I could ask you specifics privately?
" Sfall Audiotroy, one of Dave's buddies, mentioned on a Wilson post that the poster who was looking at Sashas and Alexias for a small room, consider demoing a pair of the Paradigm 9H and the people on that post just got hostile and nasty and in that thread, started attacking Audiotroy.
I would conclude that if people aren't open to looking and evaluating a competitive product or shoot down such an idea, their minds are made up already that their product is the best."
After reading your first post, I would have thought you would have more to go on than a story of a dealer's friend. It seemed like you had actual first hand experience, and to the point where it was becoming a problem. Anyway, what's important here is that Audiotroy survived the attack and is hopefully on a road to recovery. Best wishes to him.
Stopped by an audio store today. Won't mention the name. I asked the sales guy what he thought of the new Paradigm Personas and his answer was he would pick a different brand and mentioned Sonus, B&W, Focal because the prestige factor was higher. His words. Pretentious anyone? Said he barely listened to the Personas but what he did hear they sounded very good. Didn't ask to hear them since I was not invited to and there were people already in the demo room. He seemed more interested in looking at his iPhone anyway. Have to say they looked pretty sexy but I was suprised at how small the 3F looked in person. Not toy small but was suprised. Didn't see the bigger ones. Would still like to hear them someday.
I will not attempt to hijack this Persona thread to extol another brand of speaker, tell everyone here that they are misguided if they prefer the Persona over another speaker at or near their price range, tell everyone I know speakers costing thousands of dollars less that are better, contend that some other speaker is better as a matter of scientific materials engineering fact, promote the technology or sound of any other speaker over the Persona or accuse Audiodoctor of caring more about selling a brand (Paradigm) than making sure their customers get the best SQ for the money.
These are among the positions Audiotroy advanced which got him into a pickle on a thread in which the OP asked if, based on the size of his room, he should elect to buy Wilson Sashas or the Alexias. To add insult to injury, Audiotroy advanced these positions and others (and I summarize) as one who works for a dealer that sells Paradigm.
We should all keep our ears and minds open on this forum and always remember that speaker selection is a highly personal choice. The Personas which I have listened to one 2 occasions in different settings are fine speakers which I correctly predicted would be well reviewed by Anthony Cordesman in The Absolute Sound. Many who have the opportunity to hear the new Personas will agree that they are a very strong product for the $.
I wish the best to all who prefer the new Paradigms to any other speaker within earshot. Such a choice is valid and need not be defended.
gpgr4blu, could you provide a link to the thread? As a potential buyer of speakers, my opinion is you get a lot of value for money on the Legacy Signature SEs...they are very well made, 5 driver speakers...the sound is top notch, incredibly smooth and big and resolving. You get AMT tweeter and a mid-range, it's pretty high tech. Essentially as I compare, say the new Dynaudio Contour C20s at $5000 + $500 (for stands) or the C30s at $7500 against something like that, it screams value for money. As for the Personas, I thought they sounded incredible, but they are pricey...I mean audiophiles spend money, but 10K is still a lot of money.
mofojo, they are small but they play pretty loud. Even the 9Hs aren't that large actually...they are very sleek and sexy.
((((I also get the feeling that Dave is after what is best for his customer, I went to visit a very famous dealer mentioned countless times in these posts, and I got the feeling, if it ain't Vandersteen I must not be hearing correctly.))))
Who ya kidding?
B S Alert
it wont take a genies to read below to see you are on his payroll..
If you were a genuine customer I would of made you as happy as a pig.
Mar 09, 2017April 2017 review of the Paradigm Persona 9H A home run for Paradigm!
Oops I stand editorially corrected.I found it very unusal to come right out and say that the Personas are as good as the Magicos he owns, many reviewers wouldn't come out and say that for fear of alienating another advertiser. Mar 09, 2017April 2017 review of the Paradigm Persona 9H A home run for Paradigm!
Nitewulf,Audio Doctor in Jersey City? I was blown away by Dave's knowledge and selection. He opened up a lot of ideas I was never thinking about such as streaming, I have always been a vinyl guy, his demo with T+A digital has me thinking. Over the... Mar 08, 2017April 2017 review of the Paradigm Persona 9H A home run for Paradigm!
I just got off that thread it is funny that the Legacy's were also discussed.The Legacy is a bargain for the price and the sheer amount of great things that the speakers do. The Legacy is voiced on the warm smooth side, big sound stage, fantastic ... Mar 08, 2017Paradigm Speakers
Congratulations Tpinto, those are amazing speakers.I heard Magicos, Wilson, and YG and I thought the Personas were a lot better. What color did you get? Mar 08, 2017Conrad-Johnson MF-2550SE owners - What speakers are you using with it?
When I heard the speakers at the Audio Doctor store, I don't have them yet, they had fantastic bass and I would wonder why anyone would ever need more and I know they were not using a sub, they do have subs in the room I actually asked the same q... Mar 04, 2017Paradigm Speakers
Hey Rhodes where did you hear them at and what were they using?I heard Audio Doctor's 9Hs and they were absolutely amazing, I think the results on this speaker are going to be directly proportional to the degree of setup and the quality of the com... Mar 02, 2017Looking to build a system for under $5k
Hey Bondmanp, why no mention of the Audio Doctor in Jersey City or Audio Nexus in Summit or CSA Audio in Monclair?Many years ago I visited CSA Audio and they were a nice dealer heard some Wilsons and Totems.Was in Summit for a photo shoot and popp... Mar 01, 2017Conrad-Johnson MF-2550SE owners - What speakers are you using with it?
I heard the Legacy Focus Signature at the Audio Doctor's showroom in Jersey City recently. Dave the store owner played the Legacy's for me, and I have a pair of the original classic Virgos which I love and my visit to the store was more or les... Feb 25, 2017Wilson Sasha 2 or Alexia for small room 10' x 17'?
Hey Cupracer doesn't Innovative also sell Wilsons in your area? Why no mention of them? Feb 24, 2017Wilson Sasha 2 or Alexia for small room 10' x 17'?
Hello Musifx, what a nice system. How do you like the T+A gear?I never heard of T+A before, I was introduced to their products when I visited the Audio Doctor showrooms in Jersey City. Dave the store owner gave me a tour of the place, and of cou... Feb 21, 2017Power cord for Electrocompaniet aw250r
What cables are you using now? Are you using any high end power cables what about power conditioning?Do you have a budget in mind? Feb 17, 2017Wilson Sasha 2 or Alexia for small room 10' x 17'?
Boy do you Gpgr4blu believe the sales pitch from Wilson. Wilson uses inexpensive drivers. Do you actually believe that because Wilson says that they have tested exotic drivers and prefer their much less expensive drivers that that is a fact, or... Feb 13, 2017Legacy Audio Classic HD Speakers with or without Sub
After my demo at the Audio Doctor's I looked at the less expensive Classics you are looking at which I can afford sooner, or saving up for the Focus Signatures, I came with the same conclusion as listed above.If you can swing it the Focus Signatur... Feb 12, 2017Legacy Audio Classic HD Speakers with or without Sub
I heard a few weeks ago a pair of Legacy speakers at the Audio Doctor showroom in Jersey City, they sounded amazing I would give their store a call, the owner, Dave really knows his stuff every system I head at his place sounded amazing! I got a ... Feb 12, 2017Classe SSP-800 - Time to move on?
I was just over to the Audio Doctor's showroom in Jersey City, a few weeks ago, they have the Anthem AVM 60, and the Audio Control Maestro, I think I saw an Arcam there as well. I watched a movie in their reference theater and it was totally amaz...
Sorry, I don't know how provide a link but JohnnyR in the post above links to some comments in the thread to which I'm referring which is titled "Wilson Sasha 2 or Alexia for small room 10' x 17?'". Click on JohnnyR's comment and open up the whole thread from there. You will see that Audiotroy , with a small assist from Kuppe 38, attempted to hijack that thread to promote Personas and AudioDoctor. Audiotroy had also done that on another thread to which I was a party. I am not here to destroy, hijack or turn this thread into anything other than a celebration and discussion of Personas which are excellent speakers and a great deal for the $ (at least re the unpowered version which is the one I heard) BUT you requested the info, so I responded.
I am also a fan of Legacy brand which sound quite different from the Personas. You cannot go wrong with either of those choices re SQ and customer support.
Lets look at the same posting, I wonder if Cstooner is on your payroll? Or Gbu or one of the zillion other apparent Vandy Fanboys who all sing your praises?
Your store has a reputation, I also talked with Finxibn, who has been over to your store and was pitched the same combination, he instead bought WIilson 8, with Pass Labs and an Arc, which can be considered good or bad depending on your perspective, you love Vandersteen and it certainly seems that your cadre of guys supports your assertion. I do I find them pleasant speakers with a rolled off top end. The Legacys are warm, with much greater bass response for half the price, and they are voiced like a Vandersteen which is to say very musical.
I heard many times Vandys at Sound by Singer in NYC when I was buying my Audio Physics, good speakers they are the holly grail they are not just one flavor, by the way is Gpgr4blu on your payroll as well?
Lets see everywhere in the world Ctstooner, he is posting in support of Ayre, and Vandersteen in your payroll? Do I have to list his 1200 posts to support my claim?
As per making me happy as a pig, I will stand by what I have heard I like vintage amplifiers and I am a big fan of the Legacy’s they sound amazing, and I would put it to you anyway you like they do compare with many way more expensive speakers out there and it is not just me that is saying it.
Hey I like the Audio Doctor, I like their approach and I haven’t yet purchased anything from them. After talking with Dave and Troy, they do not have a system, they sell many different brands and let the customer decide on what is best for them. I never heard either of these gentleman saying one brand is better than another, or anything like that it was all about choices and each product serves a different niche.
I heard PSB, Dali, Legacy and Paradigm so did Nitewulf, it seems that Audio Doc is brand agnostic.
Gee Gpgr4blu you don't have any relationship with Audio Connection?
Your post history says a rather different thing, it says flat out that you are buddy buddy with Audio Connection, and perhaps it explains your down right hostility to anyone who is extolling Audio Doctor their friends, customers, and products.
The Wilson post was one line about a pair of speakers that offered room correction and cost $20k less than the Alexias, with a suggestion to check them out, and all of a sudden Gpgr4blu starts attacking?
Your honesty is more than suspect, you claim " I do not have any relationship with Audio Connection March 11, 2017
Yet on Nov 30 2015
Going to NYC from the outback of Oregon.
Agree with Audio Connection as one of the finest shops in the NY metro area. John and Nick are fabulous and I've purchased more stuff from AC than any other dealership. But everything depends on what the customer is looking for. When in NYC, one s...
I find that very interesting, first you say you don't have a relationship with that store, and 2 years ago you do and you state "purchased more stuff from AC than any other dealership." So which is it?
Unlike you I make no pretense that I found a superb shop and a friend at Audio Doctor, and for a number of reasons I don't hide it, Dave has a wonderful shop and to go there is a remarkable experience:
Dave is supper nice, I came in and was offered coffee and tea the first time I came to the shop in the morning, and listening with with another gentleman one night I was offered some nice sipping Tequila, we just hung out and listened, talked and sipped Tequilla for almost two hours just the three of us, spinning tunes and talking about audio and music.
To be able to hang out in a really nice store, late at night, in a private home, with four sound rooms and then watching a movie in their $100k home theater room is totally fun, I was never pressured to purchase anything, and Dave is more like an advisor then salesman, so yes I am going to promote Audio Doctor as a unique experience, I never got that feeling from Singer, or Lyric or Stereo Exchange or any of the other NJ shops. Audio Doctor is a gem and they should be promoted and lastly to be able to listen to many different brands of speakers and never once being told that one product is better than another is a refreshing experience.
You are wasting my time again. You accuse me of having a relationship with AudioConnection based on one quote of mine from 2015 which you take and twist out of context.
Let's look at facts. Your first posting to Audiogon was 5 1/2 weeks ago.
I have posted since 2004.
You have 22 posts or responses in that short time span, 20 of which refer to AudioDoctor and usually how great it is as a dealer. There is no question that you are enthralled with this dealer which I have mentioned in the Wilson thread that Audiotroy invaded to sell his wares and in which you so boldly came to his defense.
Now you have apparently gone through my 495 posts or responses to see if you can find anything to indicate that I am enthralled with, or as you say, have a "relationship" with a dealer. You then find one quote of mine in 2015 which you use to prove it.
In fact, anyone can click on that thread from your post to see that the thread started with a post by a guy from Oregon who was going to be in NYC for Christmas and was asking what audio stores he should seek out. One poster said that he should rent a car a drive to NJ to see Audioconnection which he referred to as "the best" around. The next poster chimed in agreeing that the poster should visit Audioconnection and Audiodoctor. I was the next poster who confirmed that Audioconnection was one of the finest shops in the metro area and that I had purchased more gear there than at any other dealer (that is because they carry Audio Research of which I am a fan and I have purchased and upgraded numerous ARC pieces there).
In my next sentence--which you conveniently leave out--I tell the OP that which dealer he seeks out in the NYC area will depend on what he's looking for. I then tell him to check out Stereo Exchange, Ears Nova, Lyric Hifi, Sound By Singer, Innovative Audio, In Living Stereo, Audioarts, High Water Sound and others. Sound like a relationship between me and Audioconnection? (By the way, I have purchased gear from each of those dealers and know their proprietors as well).
By the way, for the record, I think the T&A gear is great as are the Paradigms and Legacy speakers. My beef has been with the way Audiodoctor misuses Audiogon forum threads about other products to sell its wares and promote its expertise over other individuals and other dealers. I, and everyone in my NYC listening group of 5, do not patronize Audiodoctor for what we have experienced as hard sell tactics. You, on the other hand may be having a wonderful experience there and you would be entitled to that.
I am wasting your time, it seems like every time you have to have the last word in every post you comment on
I re-read the Wilson thread, Audiotroy made one mention of the Paradigms there was ONE MENTION of the speakers by Audiotroy, that does not seem like someone who in your words was "shilling" anything, and then lo and behold you swoop in an bash him for offering a possible alternative solution to a set of Wisons, and then you go on to attack him in multiple posts, to which Troy seems to be trying to defend his position.
The Pardigms, as confirmed the TAS are a rival to the Magico, and hence all the other well respected high end reference speakers, and for a dealer to offer a perspective on a product that could work well in a small room, and maybe be better for the poster, that seems to me to be a good thing and not about hijacking a thread but instead offering up a new possibility.
In the TAS article Cordesman was very impressed by just how fantastic it is to have room correction built into a set of speakers I don't know that much about acoustics but I would think that would be a huge advantage if my room was a small one.
To me, as well as I am sure to many other people on these forums would welcome the consideration of a product that may not have been on their radar and I see it here all the time, without anyone mentioning someone is hijacking a thread, or selling or "shilling." It seems to me you have an axe to grind with these people, or do you just have a policy to be the self appointed guardian of Audiogon?
I think Nitewulf was pretty thrilled to be considering the Legacy Focus Signatures, which weren't on his radar, didn't Audio Doctor suggest those speakers, and wasn't Nitwulf blown away by them and on Nitewulf's post someone chimed in mentioning ATC. I don't see Nitewulf raising a fuss about what anyone is saying.
You posted again in defense of one of your own earlier statements, either you do have a relationship with Audio Connection, or you don't it is that simple, and your biases against Audio Doctor is startling and highly combative, again I find this rather odd when you say you have never in been to their shop and have never worked with them on a personal level, you are turned off by them "selling" I don't find it that way and I am sure Finibx who said he too had a wonderful experience at their shop and obviously was blown away by the sound of the Paradigms, does seem to disagree with you.
Perhaps I came out of the woodwork to start posting about finding a great dealer, because I became so turned off to the shopping experience that I find in most dealers, and I stopped shopping completely for high end audio equipment. Dave offers lots of different choices, and his approach was to carefully offer his take on the sound of each both good and bad points were raised.
Your post was in defense of your own words in extolling Audio Connection two years ago, and then you say it is because you like Audio Research gear, " I had purchased more gear there than at any other dealer "( it seems to me that you could also have purchased ARC gear from any bunch of other ARC dealers and yes you did mention other dealers in your post, so what. If you like Audio Connection that is fine, just don't hide that you have had or have a working relationship with them and I am sure you wouldn't keep on mentioning them or purchasing products from them if you didn't like them, It is fine to direct traffic to them, just as I will in support of the shop I like.
I bought at Sound by Singer, and at other dealers, that is not the point, It is Audio Doctor's very personal approach that I like and why I will most likely be purchasing a set of new speakers from them, how many dealers go out of their way to make you fresh coffee, and sipping Tequila, and allowed me and another guy to literally hang out there for hours just talking and listening to music, I was never asked to purchase a thing, not once, I will once I have my finances in place.
As per your five buddies, please enjoy your relationship with Audio Connection, it seems that Audio Doctor is gaining their own group of supporters who like their approach, and that includes myself, finibx1, niitewulf and others.
You are really great at attempting to twist my words and lie about the facts to fit your conclusions. I have never been a shill or in the thrall of Audioconnection nor have I or do I have any relationship whatsoever with them except as an person who has purchased gear there among many other dealers. Having found the 1 post in my close to 500 posts on Audiogon where I mention Audioconnection together with 8 other dealers that a Goner from Oregon should visit while here on a trip---does not make for a relationship of any sort. On the other hand your 21 out of a total of 23 posts in your brief time on Audiogon professing your love of Audiodoctor does show at least a bias that perhaps blinds you to all else. You should get out more. There are lots of good dealers in the NYC area. A lot of them have great gear as well. Don't let Dave convince you otherwise.
You say that poor Audiotroy only mentioned Paradigms one time on the thread dedicated to the OP's request as to whether Sashas or Alexias would be best for his room size. Read it again. He has 12 posts on that thread, most interminably long, to sell his non Wilson wares as well as to promote the ever overreaching Audiodoctor as the finest dealer around who does the best for their customers because, unlike the other dealers, AD is "sound loyal" and not "brand loyal" and because they carry the best products for the money.
Many of his posts continued his self promotion long after the OP told the thread participants that he purchased Sashas.
Finally, I have dealt with the hard selling Dave on many occasions back when he worked at Sound By Singer and at 2 NY audio shows. My audiophile friends have also had the displeasure of dealing with him at Sound By Singer and at shows and 2 of them have been to his shop.
If you like his style--that's fine. I'll stick with the 9 reputable dealers I mentioned in my post from 2015.
You know, it's a shame that I have to go out of my way to listen to such brands as Paradigm, T&A, Legacy and Kef. They are all truly great brands that deserve better than Audiodoctor. Just to be clear, my antipathy towards Audiodoctor is not because I prefer another particular dealer, it's because I get very upset when threads that I'm participating in and enjoying the back and forth with my fellow Goners-- are trolled--especially by dealers who should know better. And Audiotroy has done that on more than one occasion. Kind of takes away the joy of this wonderful hobby, doesn't it?
Now, let the thread go back to where it started before I interrupted to show how easy it is to be a troll.
I guess you don't read very well, I stated that Audiotroy made ONE POST on the Wilson Thread BEFORE YOU started your attack on him which then lead to a tit for tat back and forth between you two, just like you are doing now, it seems that Audio Troy was trying to defend himself and had to reply to your unceasing comments just like what is exactly happening now, which lead to the 12 posts you mentioned,
I didn't see it the way you saw it, I saw a rebuttal to your coming at the guy every time and how do you back up your position by stating your position.
You could have just let it go, with his ONE initial comment, but you are the self appointed master of Audiogon and its propriety, Maybe the OP might have found the Paradigms even more to his liking than the Sashas, which I like by the way, but who knows, but you do seem to get your message across you are somehow pissed that Audio Doctor is somehow 'trolling." and it was your incessant bullying that turned people off.
Lets see if another dealer, mentions a product on a post that is about that product that is okay, Not Trolling, but mentioning another product that may be better, less expensive, prettier, better built, or more to a particular persons taste, is wrong and bad and is trolling by your definition.
That doesn't seem much like a forum that seems like a bunch of toadies preaching the same dogma and not learning anything.
Or that fact that a dealer in your mind can't voice on opinion on a product because that is shilling, I don't know about you but if I wanted to get accurate information on a car repair I wouldn't ask my buddy, but go to a trained mechanic.
A dealer may or may not have skin in the game, depending on location, I am sure a guy living in NY is going to purchase sound un-heard a set of exotic and expensive speakers from a guy in Detroit? Also I don't think that is allowable either.
I would never be upset if someone chimed in and mentioned that I check out X, Y or Z if I am in the process of buying something I would evaluate any bit of advice if that advice made sense.
It seems that Nightwulf, found the Audio Doctor and was introduced to Legacy speakers that were never on his radar and now is considering them was that due to an Audio Doctor post? If it was I guess trolling or commenting then might be beneficial.
As per my shopping experiences, I went to all the major NY stores before I feel in love with the Audio Physics, that I bought from Andy, who by many accounts is an over bearing sales guy, he was very nice to me.
I found most of the NY dealers to have sales people that didn't seem to care very much about the demo or about the sound, and I visited CSA, Nexus and a few others in NJ and wasn't too kean on what I heard there either.
So it comes down to your bashing is based on: "Just to be clear, my antipathy towards Audiodoctor is not because I prefer another particular dealer, it's because I get very upset when threads that I'm participating in and enjoying the back and forth with my fellow Goners-- are trolled--especially by dealers who should know better. "
Wow that seems awfully small of you, you said you have and will not visit their shop, because the guy is what? passionate about his products and extols them at shows? You said hypebolic?
I don't know about you but I would take an excited, passionate sales guy over some zombie who wouldn't be able to guide me in the first place.
If you went to their shop, listened to their setups, and even know about their experience, then maybe you could make a useful comment, on what matters which is the sound and non reputable stores don't carry one half the superb products that Audio Doctor sells.
And as per sales tactics, again I didn't get a single one, having been to their shop three times and spending hours there listening to music and talking audio, I was never once asked to purchase anything. So your mileage may vary!
Are we done now?
If you would like to discuss, the Paradigms and how the press is validating their ascendancy to that of a world class loudspeaker builder, please feel free to chime in.
As per the speakers I only know what I heard at Audio Doctor's showroom they are very impressive, and I think we will be seeing a lot more rave reviews on them from the rest of the press over time as more and more reviewers will be exposed to this new line.
As to what people will like they are remarkably transparent so I am sure the Magico, Focal, Rockport guys will love em. and perhaps the Vandersteen, Harbeth, more musical camp will probably find them too transparent.
I think it is going to be interesting to see how the market reacts.
I don't find it the least bit surprising that Paradigm can make a speaker as good as magico for a lot less money. I'd be surprised if they couldn't. They're a bigger company with more knowledge and experience. Since they've always built to more moderate price points they've been experimenting for decades with making the right compromises to get the best performance for the money. Lots of more mainstream companies have experimented with making higher end stuff and have been successful creating high performing products but not as successful selling them. A person who wants to drop 50k on speakers doesn't want them saying Paradigm or Polk or something. They want something people haven't heard of and they want there to be a lot to talk about.
I wish Paradigm the best here but I won't be surprised if in a few years you can buy these online for an obscenely low price because they couldn't get high end buyers interested. Vanity is a huge part of the reason very high end stuff exists.
I would agree with you on principle, however, I have been told that they are going to be very limited in production so that should keep them relatively scarce.
Vanity does seem to be a large part of this industry, personally I don't give a dam about that stuff, to me it is about the sound and technology,. and if someone was to suggest something I would like better I would move out of that product and buy the new. Who cares if it is a Wilson, a Focal, Magico, or a Paradigm these are just tools and that is all they are.
Well Kuppe, we agree on one thing, CSA and Audio Nexus are not the friendliest of dealers and I do not patronize them either (although CSA is out of business now) and Andy Singer had a rep as overbearing but I always appreciated his knowledge and he always treated me very well. You and I also do not disagree on the freedom of one to like whatever speaker he chooses or whatever equipment he chooses. But my beef, as stated, was with Audiotroy who has invaded more than one thread that I have been in (and one which I was not on) or I would not be all over him. Look at the language he uses to promote Audiodoctor in the Wilson thread. I have never read any dealer post on the history of this forum that so shamelessly promotes his dealership. This was in line with how Dave tried to sell me at Sound By Singer and at audio shows. It just rubbed me and others the wrong way from the very first time I was subjected to it. I did my best to avoid Dave in my subsequent visits to Singer's shop and mostly succeeded. Audiotroy deserves everything he got from me IMHO. His 12 posts on that thread were attempts to defend himself from me calling him out and to further promote his expertise and that of Audiodoctor.
Of course, in any thread, someone can make a suggestion of another brand or another alternative--I am never against that. It's the way Audiotroy did it (and as a dealer rep) that caused me to go at him. I am not the master of Audiogon propriety and indeed have never been as ferocious in writing in any forum or anywhere else as I was here on Audiogon with Troy.
You, on the other hand, are apparently happy with the way they have treated you and I'm sure they are capable of that. They do carry some fine brands but I will exercise my right not to purchase those brands from them. You will exercise your right to not purchase from Audioconnection because John strongly promotes Vandys. And life will go on.
Again, we agree to disagree, I have never in the 20 years of being an audiophile and an occasional shopper, living in this area, found a kindred spirit such as in Dave and Audio Doctor.
Never was I given a hard sell, as you described, and he proved in doing demos that little changes in system setups and pairings could totally change the sound, we did a shoot out between Wireworld and Audioquest Cables and the differences were easily audible and it was instructive and thusly changed my biases towards cable upgrades, I can't ever remember a dealer actually doing a cable demo everyone is always trying to sell me new speakers or components, not cables and power conditioning as a next possible step.
Dave felt more to me as someone who was committed to the art of music reproduction, and the fact that these guys chose to work with lesser known but famous brands such as ATC, and Paradigm, says to me it is more about the sound then the brand, until now who ever thought of Paradigm as making world class speakers? And I can't ever remember anyone selling ATC in the New York metro area, I have seen lots of B&W, I have seen Harbeth and Spendor, never ATC.
I really don't understand your resentment of Dave, and unless he went out of his way to treat me differently I am very shocked by how you feel, I talked with Finibx after meeting him at the shop, and his story is similar to mine, he told me Dave came to his house and re set up Wilson 8 didn't charge him a thing, and now his Wilsons sound significantly better.
Andy on the other hand seemed to always be pushing me to spend more, and encouraged me to always be changing components. I ultimately bought a pair of Virgos and Scorpios from Andy, but I never got the feeling that Andy was in it for my best interest rather than his. He is a fascinating man and can be quite engaging.
Wow, I don't even know where to start. How the heck did I get pulled into this thread? Glad I am Johnny's payroll. Sorry Johnny for buying my Ayre AX5/20 from Ralph at Take 5 in New Haven. He's a GREAT dealer and a darn nice guy just like Johnny is. Oh, I also got a small Linn system for the bedroom (hate it) from a dealer in Dallas. Great guys all of them. That was a year and a half ago. Oh I forgot, I have recently purchased headphones at another dealer.
My point is that you should never make a statement like that about me when you don't know me or anything about me other than some posts I make about equipment. Like the owner of some dealership you have talked about, I've been in audio a bit too. I've been involved since 1969. I started my system early in life. I've been blessed to meet many great and some not so great folks in the industry. Heck, my ex was Mark Levinson's attorney many years ago. I am in contact with many a reviewer too and know who I trust and who I don't. There are some I like, but we hear very differently and like different products. I believe in my own ears and don't need to go to dealers to tell me how great anything is. Honestly, that's why I ended up at Johnny's and started buying Vandersteen's. They sold themselves.
The last thing I was going to even listen to were Vandy's as my old dealer I was loyal to sold them, but never had them set up properly so I never liked them. I was closed minded. Not any more. I hear a ton of gear as I travel and get asked to audition. Heck, heard the 9H's the second day they made their NA tour at the Audio Store in Newington, CT where I grew up. Bernie the owner is a GREAT guy and will also take the time to let folks audition. See, again not working on Johnny's payroll or anyone else's.
Unlike many of the folks posting, I have no hidden agenda or any agenda other than have discourse and sometimes debate with some great posters and some, well.......
When you decide to make a post hiding behind a keyboard about someone you really should have your facts in order as that makes things personal. Talking about audio products is not personal regardless of how much we love what we own and listen to.
I'm not made or hot under the collar, just stunned that my name came up in a thread by a poster who is clueless in making the allegations they have made. It was just wrong and very rude.
From now on, just email me to let me know when you bring my name up in any posts on any boards so that I may at least defend my name. Pete at firstname.lastname@example.org I'm not hiding behind a keyboard.
Oh, not that it matters, but I WISH I was able to work at Johnny's or any of the dealers I mentioned. Since you don't know crap about who I am, I'll share a spec. I'm a retired Navy Commander. I'm a Surface Warfare Officer who drove the USS Kitty Hawk back in the day. I'm a proud dad of two wonderful children. One is 18, with Autism who stunned us all in his growth and is attending college this year in PA. My daughter is a Jr at Univ of New Hampshire. She's majoring in Astro and Nuclear physics and minoring in Entrepreneurship. She also captains the cheer squad that is heading to nationals in April. My wife owns an insurance agency and writes in over 38 states. We have three Yorkies.
I can no longer work as I had Transverse Myelitis that was caused by MS. I use a rollator to get around. I'm very active and do everything I can possibly do, but many days I have to just stay home by myself with my dogs. We will hang out on forums all day and listen to music of all types.
There you go, that's what I have decided to share, but still not WHO I am. Oh, I love Vandersteen's, Ayre, Basis and Audioquest. Guilty for liking them all. I also like a ton of other gear, but this is what I currently own and I realize that we all like different things and that's why there are forums. Not trying to sell a darn thing, other than older gear that I wanted to move like many other folks.
Ctstooner I am glad you love Johny and love your gear, that is not the point, the point I was raising, is that there are plenty of guys on these forums that love their dealers, and are very vocal about their support.
And I am not trying to say anything other than you are friends with this one particular dealer, the fact that he or any other dealer is doing anything for you because of it is between the both of you.
As I mentioned, the nice folks at Audio Doctor, treated me more as a friend then as a customer, and have been very hospitable, other then having Dinner there, I have been given the opportunity to hang out anytime and just watch a movie in their home theater room as well as spending hours listening to music.
All the New York stores seemed to be more with an agenda to make a purchase, then I have found with many of the NJ dealers, high rents?
My point in some of these posts is not to denigrate someones choices but to point out as Troy did that we should all be open to the possibility of enjoying the sound and qualities of other products and you should be loyal to what sounds good to you and not just to a product.
What bothers me as I mentioned before is the narrow minds of some of the people on these forums.
I am a photographer I do not care which brand of camera I use they are tools, and over the years I have used different brands and quite frankly I have never seen such polarizing views on brand loyalty as to what I have seen here.
To me there is no one brand that is better, I know you love Vandersteens, but how objectively have you listened to the competition, how do you know if you might not like a pair of similarly voiced speakers such as the Legacy's unless you have also gone down that path?
Like you I have my bias both pro and con to many of these dealers, I never felt warm at Lyric or Stereo Exchange, nor did I find great sound at either of these, I found Innovative also to be a bit on the weird side, l I did have a positive experience at Singer, I would not go there again, as their new store is a shell of what they once were, and they have very little that I can afford that I think I would actually purchase, and Andy I know would not let me come in time and time again to just listen without making a purchase.
Cstooner, I hope that clarifies my position, I thank you for your service to the country, and you do sound like a terrific and very interesting man.
I also must apologize if I mentioned your name without knowing you, I was just trying to make a point about some of the fan boys here.
I am not on anyone's payroll, but like you, I have never found a store where it was more about me, and my experience of having fun and learning about and playing music, never found that degree of civility in most of the stores, and I think Audio Doctor is unique place so like you I am vocal and I will try to promote them as much as possible.
We should all just visit more of the shops and try to keep an open mind. I know how I like and what I like I am open to listen to and consider anything.
Thanks for the apology. My phone and email blew up after it. I'm not into promoting anything. Just love what I ended up with, but as I said, I get out all the time to audition. At least once a week at various stores. I will no long enter Lyric.
I objectively listen to all speakers that I can as it's my money and not Vandersteen's or Johnny's. I have liked a lot of what I heard from the larger Legacy's, but hated anything below the Aries. The highs literally hurt my ears in their old tweeter and the new one, although better to my ears, still wasn't sweet. Heard them with both ss and tube gear. Just not for me for the price. I dislike the Focals that I've heard as they were more 2D than 3D if that makes sense. I dislike Wilsons as they are distorted and lack micro and macro detail. The new Paradigm Persona 9H's are decent new speakers, but for the 35k, they are not as good as my new to be delivered Quatro's for more than half that cost. Something was missing and I don't know what it was. The B&W 802D3 were too forward for my tastes and the Dynaudio (forget the name) were very nice. I liked that tweeter, but they lacked coherency for me. They have a 55k speaker that I like, but I don't love the rest of their line. Their sound is all over the place. I like the new Avalon's, but wouldn't purchase them right now for many reasons that I'd never share in public right now. Salk makes a good speaker, but not as good as the speakers I like IMHO.
Again, I purchase as a system so everything I have goes nicely together. Of most of the speakers I've mentioned, I have heard them in various set ups and or in various places (stores or folks systems). I don't do shows as you can't tell how anything sounds there.
When I find a speaker that sounds better than the carbon fiber cones that Vandersteen is making in house and also implements them better, then I'll think about making a move again. I just don't chase my tail.
I own Paradigms btw and knew John Bouvier who is in charge of sales at Audio Plus Services when he was at Sennheiser, so it's not bias against Paradigm.
I'm happy you like your dealer and your system.
I haven't bought anything, yet.
I don't know how you could say the Legacy's are bright, the Aeris and the Focus use the same midrange and tweeter and they sound very Vandersteen like, big sound stage, warm and very liquid in the treble. So are you basing what you heard at a show or at a dealers, and at a dealers it would also depend on what equipment they were using at the Audio Doctor show room they are delicious sounding, and are anything but bright.
Maybe your are confused with the older models which do not use the newer Heil drivers?
As per the Paradigms not be half that of the Quattros, how can you make that statement, Cordesman said they are among the best speakers at any price,?
Perhaps you heard them with less than flattering gear, or the pair wasn't broken in. At the Audio Doctor showroom they were amazing, completely holographic, smooth, with great bass and thrilling dynamics.
They sound totally real. So could it be that your experience is very different based on where you heard them?
As per Wilson's not being dynamic? What they are known for being very dynamic.
Why don't you visit their showroom and see for yourself, I would be delighted to meet you there and introduce you.
Did Audio Plus ever distribute Paradigm, I thought they always did Focal?
Should you ever listen to enough live music thru various Vandersteen speakers, you'll notice their drivers/crossovers are Phase and time Time correct. They are wired in the same polarity as the microphone. This allows listeners, especially me, a natural timing and feel for the music.
My take is that this is the way are brains are wired. Conventional speakers certainly do their best from a tonal standpoint, but their drivers polarity are randomly pushing forward while their other drivers are sucking. That's 180 degrees out of phase in the back direction and may explain why it sounds disjointed for me and others. It's more then just a tonal thing, its the whole experience of combined efforts and pieces that work together to create a point source, coherent sound that is musical and has no smearing, giving us the micro and macro detail without fatigue.
We should all be free to express our opinions
I think the point of the thread was to let people know that the review on the Persona's has validated what many people who have heard these speakers setup correctly already know. Paradigm has arrived in the uber speaker club and should be considered by anyone shopping for great speakers.
As per a time and phase aligned speaker being the only right speaker is poppy cock, There are many engineers that will not build first order crossovers due to the intrinsic demands that they make on the drivers employing overlapping frequencies, and the power handling demands placed on the drivers which then limit dynamics and causing greater distortion at higher spls, due to the greater bandwidth necessitated by these designs causing increased heating of the voice coils which adds distortion, add lobbing effects lat the pass band, and these kinds of designs also have serious trade offs to offset the advantages in just preserving time coherency.
However, not all listeners are sensitive to time related effects and a rooms interaction with a set of speakers in terms of setting overall diffraction and reverberation times, usually create more adverse time related distortions than if a speaker better tracks a microphone because the wave launch of the drivers is all in phase, vs not being in phase in the first place.
In the annuls of audio you have had great speakers with all different types of crossover designs:
The legendary JSE infinite slope, the famous Spica TC 50 which combined a first order and fourth order crossover slope, The Infinity IRS, The Infinity RS 1B whiich employed I think third order and second order slopes. the Quad ESL, and ESL 63, The Wilson Watt Puppy, and many, many more.
To go back to the original question, I also read the review of the new Paradigm speaker. I have read many reviews written by Anthony Cordesman over the years I respect him very much. Having said that, just listen to your own ears and get the speakers that you like the best, and for a price that it is worth it to you. Then, be happy!
Wow! I purchased the Persona 9H speakers and their's nothing pretentious here. On the contrary, people best get off the supposed quality names of Magico, Focal, Rockports, and legacysetc. They might want to pay attention to what Paridymn accomplished. They are certainly the new bench mark for their price segment, and possibly those other brands that simply can't out perform the Persona's. Either the retailer isn't carrying this incredible line of speakers, and bias to their brands or margins. Paridymn hit a home run, and not only in performance, but aesthetics. They have bragging rights and vanity is synonymous too. They will own this market segment, and steal from the higher priced segments. Hey, I'm just a music lover, my validion and accolades come from simply being a consumer. Do yourself a favor and listen to the 9H floor speakers. Honestly, a real work of art. I also purchased their bookshelves for rears......real music to my ears. The entire system including the center channel makes for a magnificent soundstage.
Glad you are happy with your purchase, but honestly, there is no best in class. Only best for whomever owns them. That's the reality. Looks too are subjective also. That's reality.
As I posted on a Paradigm forum on another board, they are nice speakers. I have heard them enough times to make a good judgment for MYSELF. I'm glad they got a nice review, but just like reviews for Vandersteen's (my market winner) they are from reviewers in their system and should be taken that way. It's a great start to a search, but a great review does not really 'validate' any component. We all want our own buyers validation though and it comes out in many peoples post, including mine. That's human nature and isn't changing anytime soon.
BTW Troy, you really need to go back and read your post about first order crossovers. A few of the things you say are true of them, but they can be done properly, it's just that it's so hard and very expensive to do. Vandersteen, Avalon and a few others over the years have done a great job and not that the tech can support it even better, you can get some great speakers using it.
Sell on as that's how your posts come across. Sorry, but they really do and they don't have to. There are many dealers who are on these boards and they aren't selling like you seem to do (off the board I've spoken with others who feel the same way I do, but they don't post and before you ask, only a couple own Vandersteen's or Ayre or Basis or any other gear that I love. I actually told one to go to the local store here to audition the 9h's as he's in this price range.).
Overall it's the best effort by Paradigm and if it wasn't for Vandersteen's, I'd have brought a pair home to see how it worked in my room even though my wife hates how they look (she want's zero drivers to ever show), but it's still kind of my room, lol.
People are on those "supposed" quality brands for a reason. That is, those brands have stood the test of time, are of quality build and have won accolades from reviewers and most important of the consumers who buy them. I'm not looking down on the Persona's as I have not yet heard them. The Persona's deserve a audition, not pedestal placement. I think you will get a better assessment of Paradigm''s new baby when it has grown up in a while. Then some years down the road you will know where they stand with the masses....
Ctsooner, I didn't say it isn't possible to make a good speaker using a first order slope, I said many engineers won't due to the multitude of problems inherent in a first order design as per expensive, it is is also expensive and in some ways more to build a steeper slope as you will need to spend more money on a more elaborate crossover with more elements.
Any good engineer will work on phase related issues by tweaking their crossover slopes and by building in compensation networks, so you can electrically delay the summed output of the drivers to create a wave launch which will be close to being in perfect phase even by using a steeper slopes, and as I mentioned there has been a ton of great speakers that are not time and phase aligned or are time aligned but not phase aligned. So great sound is much more than just building a time and phase aligned design.
Our camp, of Paradigm Personas lovers, including Tpinto, which is now an owner of these magnificent speakers, is trying to raise awareness of how fantastic these speakers are and you said you heard them before, but not at our shop, so you may have a different opinion when you hear them at our shop. It took us weeks to get them sounding right, not to mention having the right matching equipment, I have no idea where you heard them and the competency of that store's setup, so why don't you come here and judge for yourself?
When Dave heard them at their first North American tour, he did not like them, either. We discussed this matter at length, our choice to bring them in was that he felt they had potential to sound good, this particular dealer only had mid priced electronics and cables, and did not clearly have the correct gear to present the speakers properly.
In all of my posts, I never said that the speakers weren't anything other then a contender and may do things as well or in some ways better than the other sacred cow brands.
When I related our experience in actually having some very exotic and expensive brands and products in comparison to the Personas's the thread broke up in a tit for tat between myself and another member on the Wilson forum who is not getting that this is how we test and how we know in our experience just how good the Personas are did we test them vs everything no but we have been around the block.
What I was trying to do, was not to hijack that thread but to point out to the OP that there was an alternative that he should check out, that he might like and would work well in his room and cost less than an Alexia.
So that is "selling" it seems to me that is about helping a guy to consider an option he wasn't thinking about. The only way that would have been selling if the poster was in our territory and visited our shop and then purchased a pair from us. I don't think that really happens much here as this is a big country, and Paradigm has dealers in the other states.
By that same token all of you Vandy guys should have also chimed in on that same post, and let that man also know that he should consider the Vandy 5A as they also have room eq and boundary compensation,and they cost the same as the Sashas.
It may be their size and shape that made the Vandys not desirable to the guy who bought the Sashas or it could be the sound or a zillion other reasons.
The fact are in and I agree with Tpinto, the new Persona Line represents some incredible engineering at affordable price points and should be auditioned by anyone looking at high performance speakers.
I know of no other brand to offer such advanced driver technology for a set of speakers which start at $7k a pair and that is just one of the reasons the Paradigms should be a must audition product, whether or not someone likes them better than brand x is up to the listener.
My invitation stands if you want to meet me, our new friends Kuppe and Fixbin1, and Dave you are more then welcome and come to the shop and actually hear our setups, and to judge for yourself.
Who knows you might actually like what you hear.
As per selling on Ctstooner, I see your name everywhere clearly proselytizing the merits of Vandersteen and Ayre, either way you could be considered in the same way zealotry is selling, I would also think that from anyone seeing your posts.
You will also note that in any of my posts I have made it clear that I don't think Paradigms, ATC, or any other of the many lines of products the store sells are better, than any other brand, I said we prefer them and they may compete and in some ways may be better than brand X, while you clearly seem to state that like the great Peter Montecreif, all else is boat anchors, meaning that only Vandersteens are accurate and musical in in some way is a better speaker than brand X, Vandersteens, are very fine speakers, some people love them and purchase them , while many other people do not, they are not better than any other brand of speaker you may think so and that is your reality and your choice, the entire industry is made up of people who embrace Focal, Wilson, Magico, Monitor Audio, Spendor, and many other brands there are over 300 brands of speakers out there.