Huh?...who dat?...who der?...dat you mama???
Sorry, wrong person. |
Exert-who? Fluffer? No, I've never done gay-porn, nor do I care to, thank you. |
Yeah, you defintely need powered sub(s) to help that sytem respond like the soundtracks were designed, that's all. If you like what you hear, then it's all good. However, you are indeed missing the full impact of what's intended...nothing more, nothing less.
To say what you have is better or worse, is subjective. But the companies mixing your soundtracks would definitely agree you don't have it set up right. |
yeah, what Mrpoindexter said... |
JOHNMCELFRESH, there is a VAST DIFFERENCE between full range speakers with large woofers, that play down to or bellow 20hz(+/-3db or better), and ACTIVE POWERED WOOFERS!!!...make no mistake! The control and power deliver, and thus efficiency of a woofer that's ACTIVE(meaning the amplifier is coupled dirrectly to the woofer, AFTER THE CROSSOVER,as opposed to the amp being INFRONT of the crossover, as in any passive full range typical speakers setup) is FAR SUPPERIOR and MORE POTENT than a typical passive arrangement, yes! (all things equal).
So, no I'm not implying anything remotely similar to what you are pressuming I stated! You're listening to me, but you're not hearing me.
So hear this...Bass is the single most demanding and difficult thing for speakers and amplifiers to reproduce and thus control! Ative, especially highly efficient woofer designs need control and high damping factors to properly due justice to demanding bass frequencies. IT's not like moving a tiny tweeter a few thousands of an inch!
And the only way to properly control a large bass driver, or even smaller one's, with impact, extension, speed, authority, and weight, even percision, is to get as much control of the woofer as possible. And that's best done by putting the amplifier dirrectly to the driver(s). There are other factors to be sure. But this is critically more efficient than running the passive route, like most full range speaker configurations...you just lose too much going through the passive crossover. That's exactly why crossing over higher in a passive setup, to active powered subs for movies is much more efficient and dynamic of a pressentation overall. (THX's implementation). Passive speakers need help.
So, no, I mean nothing of the sort Johnmcelfresh.
Infact, take a pair of Def Tech BPtowers, with active subs, and run em agains't a pair of, similarly sized(woofered as well) Paradims or B&W's, and play some movies or heavy bass demanding music full range through em. You'll immediately notice the power,extension, dynamic effortlesness and lack of distortion with the acitive woofer designed Def Tech's!!!
We're easily talking a 200% improvement in power and potency in the bass dynamics and weight,easily! Infact, it's not even close. You can fill a LARGE ROOM with powerful awe inspiring bass response with the better Def Tech's. While the others, and similar I mentioned, need you to definitely add some powered subs.
Same goes with Designs like the Infinity Prelude MT's, NHT VT powered sub towers, Old Polk RT2000's, and even, yes, Meridian 8000's!
Speaker desings that start to approach this in passive designs, are very highly efficient larger Klipsch speakers. Still, getting an active sub setup surpasses these easily in bass authority.
Also, very efficient "transmission line" desings, like PMC and Def Tech(at lest they used to), grealy helps the bass response. Still, you take better more efficient designs, and add "active control" to the setup, and it's still a huge advantage!
Any quesions? |
Audiophiles and enthuiests alike will tinker, plot and plan HT systems around their full range two channel systems to no end! They'll even go "sans" the processor, do processing for DD/DTS in their dvd player, out of the analog out's of the dvd, into their high end CAT preamps and such, and expect it will get no better! Yeah, sorry, that ain't even remotely the case! |
Well, another "arm-chair quarterback" audiopile has spoken here! I respect your input Waldner123, but Lucas film, THX and anyone who's built high end custom theaters will dissagree with you!
BTW, (and I already know the answer), since this topic is about "high end theaters", how many high end custom HT's have you do professionally, or otherwise?
Oh wait!...No need to answer...I already know the answer. And so does everyone here listning!...lol
"Nothing could be further from the truth. The active subwoofer section of a Definitive BP-anything is not capable of high-end bass reproduction..." (Waldner123)
"Most powered subwoofers like the Definitive (and actually 99% of powered subwoofers) are incapable of the kind of accuracy, control, lack of boom or overhang, and integration that defines high-end sound. I would argue that systems which contain state-of-the-art amplification driving very accurate full range speakers are far superior in every qualitative way to all but the very rarest few powered woofers. By telling your surround unit to route the LFE information to the much more accurate main front channels, which are in turn being driven by a far superior amplifier, the result his high-end bass."(Walnder123)
"Folks FOR A HIGH END HOME THEATE, what Waldner said, is WAY OFF BASE!!
I've sold Wilson's right off the floor for a living, and have driven Wilson WATT PUPPIES with the likes of Pass Labs X1000's, Krell FPB 600's, Theta Dreadnaughts (400w/ch), $30K NERO Mono's, and more!!!! What Waldner123 is stating is WRONG WRONG WRONG! We're talking about movie playback capability here, not typical music bass output!...HUGE DIFFERENCE! There's WORLD OF DIFFERENCE between the dynamic output of DD/DTS and 16/44 digital music or analog!!! DD/DTS is about 5x's more potent and demanding in the bass than most any music content!
Yes, your audiophile speakes like Wilson Grand Slams, JM Utopias, etc, have tighly tuned "high Q" bass response,which "holds together for modest music dubties", granted But that all goes right out the window when dynamic movie material hits em!!! passive crossovers just suck the control right out of the drivers, they bottom out, distort, get blown, flatten, and just plain fall apart!! Been there, done that...It doesn't work.
If you listen at a "flee's volume", and don't mind dynamicially constrained and "untransparent" sound from your bass on movies, PLEASE run your Wilson's and others full range for movies!.
And while a Powered bass speaker like the Deftech 2000's I menitioned might rate a 9/10 for bass speed and acuracy through out, and the Wilson's get a 10/10, the fact is the Wilson's will fall apart and get a 4/10 for THX playback full range bass info, and the DEFTECH'S get a 10/10 here!!!
Audiophiles who've done 2 channel for a million years will argue this point to no end!...but then they don't do HT for a living. They tinker with tubes and turntables. Who you gunna believe?
Yes, a good powered commercial subwoofer (Paradigm Servo 15, M&K MX5000, Rel B15, etc) needs to be properly integrated, placed, phased, level matched, calibrated, EQ'd, whatever to work right. But that's still far more ultimately effective for handling movie bass than the passively controlled,relatively inefficient woofer config in a full range audiophile speaker!!!
yeah, they sound fast for dynamically limited music material, but that's about it. And even at that, try rap, techo, hard rock, heavy metal, dynamic "world beat" music, etc through some Wilson WATTPUPPIES or JM Utopias, and see what you get! You'll be wantin' your $20-30k refunded back, like, IMMEDIATELY!!!
I've been around high end for 20 years plus, and have done hundreds of custom jobs. Sold, it all! Believe me, if it was what Waldner said, I'd be doing it that way, for sure....but it ain't, sorry.
Lucas Film spend hundreds of thousands of man-hours, and millions of dollars getting this stuff right for the home. Waldner, I'm sure you could show em a thing or two about HT..why don't you petition them to change their standards around. Oh, and BTW, send em your resume while you're at it...lol |
Personally,I think it's cool that the teacher "did" the kid!...lol |
Actually Aaron, I don't use active systems in all but the more expensive all out systems. Mostly, I use "meat-n-potatoes" typical monitor speakers, with good gear combos, sometimes even receivers, yes!...there I said it...ehem.
Bottom line, most people budget for this, not the "balls to the wall" full-on system. That'll always be the case.
Never the less, I try to always lead them that way, to the very best. Inevitably, they end up with the Honda Accord over the Ferrari. I understand.
Basically, I preach "balance!" It can be done superbly at even the lowest levels, if you know what your doing.
It's the "knowing what you're doing" where all the audio enthusiests fall flat. Just the way it is... |
Actually, in clarifying, I'm refering to something else here in regards to "speaker driver Q"! yes, lower "Q" woofer is a tighter driver setup. Higher 2.0, etc, "Q" is typical in boomy subs, yes. "Q" is an often misinterpreted discription, dpending on wether your talking speaker desing, or acoustics. Non-the less, "tighter Q" speaker desings, are better associated with higher quality speaker designs mostly, and weaker Q designs are with lower qualiy, mos often. STill, most "lower Q" speaker designs, like typical audiophile offerings, won't handle deep dynamic bass, in a passive design mostly, from DD/DTS material! This is even more true of "very low Q" sealed enclosure "high end designs", like from Dunlavy, and other sealed speaker designs. There is therefore always compromises in speaker configurations, sadly.
Still, the best solution is a slightly "less than Ideal" "Q" subwoofer situation, to improve output and dynamic range for demanding DD/DTS tracks, and maximize movie impace on earthquakes, dino-romps, explosions, gun blasts, tornados, mass destruction, etc. Your typical audiphile designs just blow all to hell if you don't do bass managment to a more apt sub system.
This compromise is still better than the typical full range speaker setup audiophile chose |
You know, we can flip flop terminoligy back and forth, we're talking about the same thing in regards to "tighly controled/damped woofers" vs. more loosly controled woofers. And there are certainly many high performance subs that do very well in the "control" and "accuracy" category, especially when you consider the job they're designed to take on! This is music AND movies here!!
So what Waldner is stating, is that his 2 channel, full range, stereo speaker setup, is the way it's REALLY BEST! Sounds like his personal issue to me. I'm sure 99.999% of all the audio/video reviewers, recording engineers, and industry professionals alike would agree here....NOT!!!
Why do you think they all promote, and have promoted for years, since all this AV stuff came down the pike, that you should IDEALLY, have 2 SEPARATE SYSTMES!?!...one for music 2 channel and one for movies!?! Well there, because IT DOESN'T WORK BETTER FOR MOVIES DOING 2 CHANNEL, that's why!
"With the exception of a very select few high quality, Low Q subwoofers, the lack of an LFE and the presence of very capable front main loudspeakers and audiophile electronics is what defines the home theater as "high-end" (Waldo)
UH, no. the BALANCE of effective, and properly selected gear for your room/system, properly SETUP gear, speaker location/setup, seating, room acoustics(easily HALF THE EQUATION!!!), noise control, airconditioning, light controled, well damped, tweaked, and effectively engineered and executed room is what DEFINES A HOME THEATER AS HIGH END! You stand corrected.
Every high end guru worth his salt will tell you that having 2 audiophie (pleeeease!....) speakers and some gear IS ABOUT AS FAR FROM HAVING HIGH END HOME THATER AS IT GETS! Anyone buys this theory lives in his own world, and thinks the earth is "flat", and that "we've never been to the moon!" Yeah, no!... Waldorf Estoria guy!
"Truth be told, most "home theater" systems are LESS GOOD SOUNDING (doh!)than a high-end two-channel system used for movies. Sure, the stereo system may lack many of the rear localized special effects, but from a clarity and sound quality standpoint, they are still far better"(Walden Books)
yeah, this sounds like someone's "own personal little issue here", ya think?
"Most center channel speakers sound noticeably worse than having that same information routed to your main speakers, assuming your main speakers are capable high-end designs. Center speakers, like powered subwoofers, tend to be poorly designed in comparison. A really good center channel is the exception, not the rule." (Waldo Kitty)...lol
Yes, again, all the mixing engineers, dubbing studio's, movie theaters, recording people, and industry pro's alike(Who've hammered home forever,that the center channel is THE MOST IMPORTANT SPEAKER IN THE SYSTEM, for a reason), have it WRONG! Thank you Walden for clarifying. What were we all tinking!?!!!!...
Yeah, having all your info routed to two PASSIVE INNEFICIENT stereo speakers is the answer to it all, um, k, hummmm....no! Sharing the load amungst more drivers/speakers yeilds improved dynamics, clarity, stearing, efficiency in the system, impact, solidy of sound, detail(assuming quality gear, acoustics, setup, yes), system sensitivity, and thus dyamic prowess, dialog inteligibility, etc, with a good center speaker!!!
Yeah, let's compress everything from demanding complicated thouroughly mixed, dubbed, overlaid, overprocessed and confused soundtracks into 2 channels of BARELY ADDEQUATE, often under-adequate stereophile speakers!...yeah, that's it. They surely can handle what's at the movie theaters around town, cause they're always so efficient and effective that way...2 channel stero that is, from HOME AUDIO SPEAKERS, SURE!!!
Rule of thumb: DON'T LISTEN TO GREENPEACE PHSYCO'S, ALQUEDA,OR WALDEN123! The man knows nothing of setting up a home theater, probably from lazyiness, and lack of motivation...thus his 2 channel (easy route) supremecy stance.
Walden? You never gave us a resume of your credentials on building home theaters! Since you're dodging this one, I assume it's safe to say you have put together exactly 2 stereo systems total in your existence, and that's the extent of your high end AV career, yes? Or do you secretly build high peformance theaters for the rich? |
I guess if you need your posts proof-read, and your grammar corrected, you talk to Walden. If you need your home theater (come on over, anytime folks, really!) done to a world class level, then you call me!...seems fair enough, sure...lol
20 years, 6 audio stores, and 2 high profile "Showcase homes" can't be wrong you know... |
Oh, here we go again!!!...
First off Waldner, I NEVER MENTIONED A DEFINITIVE SUBWOOFER!!! What I did mention, was the POWERED 500-1000WATT SUBS BUILT INTO (huge difference)a pair of properly integrated Def Tech BP2000/2000tl's (and do a fine job I might add, compared to 99% of the separate powered sub setup jobs most people end up with in their "ill-setup" and ill-conceived sub/sat systems, cause they can't setup/place the darn sub right anyway!!!). (even though that's the way to do it, and offeres the best flexibility)
I've had these Def Tech speakers in a couple of stores, and many many setup's, and they're still most of the way there, bass-wise, to some passive Wilson woofers in the WATT PUPPIES!, yes! There's simply better control pottential in the active woofers from the Def's, properly setup, yes! Still, granted, maybe a smidge more tightness and speed, better damping, whatever, from the better higher end driver Wilson's, sure. Still, get the movies and heavy dynamic stuff rolling full range, and the Def's (bass dynamics-wise)walk away from the Wilson's, which you can bottom out, distort, etc...I know, I've done em on NUMBEROUS OCCASIONS! Not so with practical applications of the PB2000's.
Now I'm basically correcting Walden (who'm I love to chastice, criticize, and basically despise for no apparant reason...lol!), who likes to take what I say, and put words in my mouth, twist things all around, show how much he DOESN'T KNOW ABOUT world class home theater, or even addequate home theater, cause he's in love with his two speakers, that are not capable, full range of doing HT properly, this I know!!!!
Case in point, even though I don't own or promote Def Tech, I still know the old active woofer designs they made are powerful enough for super strong bass dynamics, unlike most full range passive speakers for the home.
Still, as Waldner123 MIS-STATED, I never said anything about an individual Def Tech sub!, not once!!!
Yeah, and for the record, I've used and promoted 2 channel plus a sub (2.1) for many many setups, including my own! Yes, it can be done well.
I just like to chose up sides, get obnoxious, and pick on wiennies like Waldner123, for no apparant reason...mostly cause I can't do it on the job...lol
Oh, and Walden? I'm not in the slightest bit interested in sharing my resume with someone who'd never buy from anyone but the used-gear market on the net anyway! You're in your own little 2 channel closet world anyway...no one on the plannet could sell to these guy's anyway.
I could sit here, expound the most profound and meaningful b.s, about this stuff out there, convince everyone here about how to setup the absolute stone cold best, world class setup's, and it would make no difference to my bottom line!!! This is NOT a place/market for selling! It's a chat room for DIY'ers! I sell to "Joe-blow" off the street, who's not a "tinkerer". Wisely, my customer get's my experience, and world class.
Why sell Honda's to working stiff's all day, when you can sell Lexus's to the white colar crowd?! That's my moto...location is everything I've once heard...and this is "ear-candy central!"
Enjoy all the free advice you moochers!...lol |
Cinematic? I think Waldner123 likes you!!!! That's hot!... (Paris Hilton)...lol
This cracks me up actually. Waldner?...if we all come over and play some heavy metal, bass-destroying heavy percussion, bass-laden world-beat music, some rap, serious Techno music from the clubs, and some "dino-romp" heavy DD/DTS tracks through your KILLER 2 channel setup, we're all gunna be mighty impressed, right!?!!!!
I just wanna be sure, so we know what to bring...muuuuuuahahaaaaahhahahaahahaha!!!!
Yeah, that's right, It's all very funny, and I've seen/heard it a million times. So so so so so many of the 2 channel "full range" HT-setup guy's think that they got the end-all-be-all HT system, running dirrectly from their dvd player, into their $10,000,000 preamp and $2000 amp combo, and they think it's the chiznit!!!
Well, ok, but it's just not, really!!
yeah, the audiophile speakers are nice and clear, and pretty, and delicately detailed, on a low-level-dynamics scheme of things kinda way. Personally, we need those attributes from a speaker system, to be true, yes. But in terms of large scale macro dynamics, and an acutal mico-dynamic's perspective for REAL PRESSENCE AND INPACT, they are mostly SERIOUSLY LACKING!!!! Yes, it can be "ok", but that's about it. Don't expect to blow the pants off anyone with your StarWars Demo like this, any time soon. They get better at the local cinema, believe it!
The sad truth, dynamically, and I've said it a million times, is that, ESPECIALLY going the 2 channel full range passive (sans subwoofer)(especially sans the pre/pro) route, is not very powerful, like intended. Dynamically, we're talking a serious lack of dynamic transparancy, realism, impact, and emotion! Wimpy, wimpy, wimpy!!!
If you don't think so, just go down to the local Sam Ash store, and pick up some moderate, even passive designed, "pro audio" speakers, that have little problem dishing out real dynamics! MOstly we're talking a complete dynamic thrashing of what's on the home market! You get into larger versions, and active speakers, and the price of an "E-ticket" dynamic ride just got very interesting!!!!
All I'm sayin, is people just don't mostly know! They think they got it goin' on with their 2 speakers usually, but they don't! There's a lot more to this HT stuff here than meets the eye folks!
There are a scant few out there that REALLY know how to do it right. Everyone else just thinks they are. |
Ok, let's look at what's the focus and interests of the general "A-gon" crowd here are, so maybe we can help clear all this mess up here...
I'm looking at the "discussion forum" category break downs, and the posting trends that I can remember off hand, and I've put it all together. (aren't you all so glad?!...lol)
I see here we've got 11,000+ posts for "preamps/amps". Next most is "speakers"...yeah!!!!(with 8,000+ posts). Then we got "digital", with 5,000+. Then "cables" with 4000+ postings, followed by good ol' "analag" with 3000+, ending with "HT" at 2000+ posts for discussion...
Ok, so what I gather, is that, even though speakers are DEFINITELY the most important factor in any audio system, gear-wise, THEY ARE OBVIOUSLY SECOND IN IMPORTANCE to the "gear-heads" on this forum!!! Go figure. Most people here, it seems, from what I read, worship their 10 baggillion dollar CAT L1/Macintosh/Golden Tube/whatever preamp's, as THE ANSWER TO ALL TINGS GOD LIKE IN RELATION TO AUDIO!!!!! I mean I think there was, what, like over 1000 posts (litterally) regarding a past posting entitled "Preamp deal of the century", er something er other, right? So we see the priorit order here.
Then, Digital over analog! K, true audiophiles here, all of em!!! Yeah, don't be FRONTIN'!!!!!!!!!...all you digitalia peps!...lol (ok, I'm one too...oh well...lol!).
And then, we got "Home theater" with a lowly 2000+ postings, WAY BEHIND EVERYTHING ELSE mostly!!!!
So, let me get this straight...most of the people here swimming around in the Audio Gon pond, are really into their preamps, then maybe their 2 channel speaker system. They then like their digital DVD players and CD players more than their turn tables and tuners I suppose. Then, lastly, they MIGHT consider HT, or at least ponder whether HT is even worth it er not!! After all, their great sounding world class, super dupper 2 channel, exotic, one of a kind preamp's (yawn) must be making their mediocre, "just get by" speakers they picked up at the flee market sound SOOOOOOOOOOO good!!!...driven by their 5 year old dvd player or 300 disc cd changer, no less!!!
Of course, there's obviosly still some "tube-guy's" and turntable dedicated's around here...let's not forget them.
Still, they think NOTHING OF HT!! So it's no wonder people here are on the 2 speaker HT bandwagon! It all makes sense now!!!
Oh, it also apears many here believe cables "make a difference!" That's at least a good sign...lol
Like I said, "show me someone who doesn't think cables make a difference, and I'll show you someone with a crappy sounding system...every time!" |
For me, home theater is all about eating Twinkies! I love yellow Twinkies...they take my mind off of all the short-comings out of my system, and transport me to a place where puffy white clouds, and noodle salad reign supreme...
Clipper ships...I love Clipper ships...sailing...shifting...adrift in a sea of torment and termoil...
Gee my subwoofer sounds all nice and "squishy!". Fat big subwoofers, pounding....throbbing...shifting too and fro...on the go...ya know?....
...gee me thinks me subwoofer's sounding slow.... |
First of all johnmcelfresh, your Meridian DSP8000's HAVE POWERED SUBS BUILT INTO THE SPEAKER! (what, like 6 8" ACTIVE woofers?). Essentially (no, correction, DEFINITELY!) your speakers are high end active minimonitors sitting on a powered bass module! So, dude?...I hate to tell ya, but you have some subs in your system! Just as the Infinity Prelude MTS and NHT modular series speakers are towers sitting on bass modules, so are the Meridian 8000's. So,your speakers are no different!
However, that said your speakers (subs!!) don't put out 118db at 18hz, I garantee it! Infact,they won't do 118db anywhere near down that low! 118db is an average of the speakers frequency response, probably around 1k! I'd bet you money your speakers won't do 118db bellow 30hz!!! |
Johnmcelfresh, If I was sounding condescending, it was because you started putting words in my mouth, and were missenterpreting what I was saying!!!
HOwever, your 25 years of owning a turn table and a pair of speaker, plus some Stereophile mag's on the coffee table, don't tell me anthing!...nor do I care!
Show me your accomplished track record of custom theaters and I'll be impressed..I've worked on hundreds, plus $1million dollar installations, for large clients! I've been trained by the best in the biz, consult on setting these things up for a living, yada, yada...so you can discredite me all you like. I can put together world class systems. When you even setup "one speaker" properly in your room, come talk to me. If so,TEll me your proceedure? Let's see what you know. Then you can tell me how it should be done.
Till that time THIS GUY IS REFERING TO "ACTIVE SUBWOOFERS"! I hate to inform you. He might not has specified, but he's infering "powered subs", not some passive boxed woofer-weirdness...lol.
And, BTW, most separates sub modules, sans the amp and crossover, are really active subs anyway!...the gear is just outside the box, that's all..same thing.
Still, to reiterate, YES, EVEN A PAIR OF OLD DEFINITIVE BP2000'S WITH 15" 1000WATT ACTIVE AMPS DRIVING THE BASS, WILL STOMP ANY WILSON GRAND SLAM, JM LABS UTOPIA FULL RANGE, or anything else you can think of that's passive, even being driven by, YES, Bolder 1000watt monos!!!!!...graantee it, every time!! How do I know?
Because, I've been there, heard that, tried that, installed/set up that, and it's not as good! It's called LEVERAGE AND EFFICIENCY! AGain, passive crossovers suck engergy, limit control over bass woofers, and don't offer even remotely the kind of control that "dirrect coupling" does!
So you can skirt around with semantics all you want! Active subs are what people need to do this right!
They can rinky-dink around with their full range setup. But it's not as good, setup properly.
Go sell THX and Lucas Film your BS! They'll tell you the same.
So, yep, I'm sure some bum under the overpass has some tv stereo speakers sitting in a shopping cart, who swears he's got a THX sound from a console television....that doesn't mean it's truth for the masses.
|
Waldner123's feelings are hurt. Sorry. Desparate attempt to discredit an accomplished HT designer, and more experience audiophile to boot!...ehem.
Good try, no-one's biting Waldner!
Also, you didn't answer my claim to your HT experience. So that answers that. You've never built an HT for anyone but yourself, face it.
"He also doesn't know that "high Q" refers to poor quality underdamped bass. High end audiophile speakers are Low Q"(Waldner123)
WRONG!!!! YOU JUST STUCK YOUR FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH Waldner!...lol Let's ask THX, any speaker manufacture, recording engineer, acoustician, etc, what "Low Q", "high Q" means!
High Q is Higher control, tighter damping. "Low Q" is what most "home theater subs" are!...not the other way around!! Sorry, your wrong here, as in others.
Anyone else here care to clear this up, regarding the "Low Q, High Q" situation?!
Let's email a few high end speaker makers, acoustical engineers (Rivesaudio.com, PMI, etc), THX, and others to ask...what do you say Waldner???
Sure you want to make that statement about my ignorance here? It's making you look worse, I'm tellin' ya...lol.
I'm not even going to "go there" about THX speakers in theaters or home! Because you obviously don't know what you're talking about regarding eithers applications, and are biased toward audiophile speakers, to no end...good for you. enjoy your lackluster delicate speakers and poor acoustics. Don't sell me what I already have done a thousands times, and it doesn't work. No thanks...
Like I said a ton..."if anyone wants to put up the budget, I'll be more than happy to do what "Extreme choppers" TV show does, and that's have a "Biker buildoff", er, "HT build-off"!!!! I garantee victory at any budget!
I take on any comers....lol |
