I am very interested in trying super tweeters myself.... curious to see who responds here. I thought the Townsends looked pretty good, but recently read the review of the Elac's in HiFi+.......... These look killer. Have you seen them........ Anyone else out there have experience?
Chris,though the Elacs look great,I want to keep my speaker acting like it was originally designed.A point source.I contacted Townshend,and hope to hear from them soon.My concern is,that since my speakers are so clean,up to 25 khz,will the Townshends really do much?
I have just heard the Elac super tweeters placed on top of Revel Studio which I thought would be overkill. First off the Revels and the Elacs were finished in a silver grey and were a close match.Adjust the crossover points on the Elac,10 seemed best when I heard them.The Pre amp was the VTL king of the pile linestage, power amp was the newest Levinson,as was the cdp,a Brinkman tt was used as well,all cables were top of the line Shunyata.
The bass with the Elacs was not as tight as with the stock Revels but there seemed to be more bass in the room(overload?)but the over-all sense of relaxation with the Elacs added in the mix was something you immediately missed when the Elacs were disconnected.In summary if I had the money I wouldn't hesitate to add them to the Revels.
How they fair on other speakers will mean another trip to the dealer. He says they are amazing on the Audio Physik Scorpio. I will see?hear for my self.So far I am sold on the Elacs.In this case the reviews of the Elac were similar to mine.
I have used the Townshend, I could'nt hear a thing I am afraid. Probably says more about my ears than the product. At least in the UK they are sale or return and townshend took them back. Cant say fairer than that
Any decent ribbon tweeter will work well as super tweeters.I use Fountek JP2s with 1 or 0.5 mF caps.Other friends use Ravens or Fostex.Some attenuation using resistors may be required.
Many of the high priced super tweeters look like rip offs to me.This is not rocket science.
I hope some of you guys can elaborate on the following.I originally heard the Townshends on a speaker who's high end stopped at 17khz.They were th Sonus Faber Extremas,and were a fabulous match.The Sonus really benefited by the addition.STUNNING highs,and a great speaker overall.
Well,in truthfulness my own speaker is ruler flat(plus/or minus 1.5 db)to 25khz.It has superb air,yet there is a trend in the industry to go to tweets that seem to go into the "only bats can hear it" domain.I am sceptical of anything we cannot quantify,with our own ears,but still feel that,rather than consider the "buy and sell syndrome",it's smarter(and cheaper)to use technology(like a good sub,or ribbon supertweet)to my advantage,since I have come to really love my current speakers.Thus, the possibility of an add on tweeter,to compliment my current,excellent,Titanium dome.I don't rule out if this is overkill,but will weigh a final decision.Thanks.
Albert Von Schweikert highly recommended Fountek 3" ribbon super tweeters to me. For $81 apiece I purchased them through Madisound and installed them a couple weeks ago. I added a couple quality Hovland capacitors, 5 feet of wire, banana plugs and off we go. Improved imaging and coherence struck me first. Oddly, it wasn't so much the extended highs as it was the tightness through the entire music spectrum. I can't compare the Fountek's to the competition but for the price and Von Schweikert's recommendation I'm very happy.
my own speaker is ruler flat(plus/or minus 1.5 db)to 25khz
If you're -3db @ 20-25kHz the only reason to boost your hi freq is if the room is damped: the wavelength at 20kHz is very short, so average thickness material will absorb...
Assuming you want a HF spl boost, use a 1st order & cut higher rather than lower. The good thing is that the s-tweet's upper resonance will be too high (~100Khz) to be significant in the audible spectrum as its effects daisy-chain downward.
But there, you'll need a Murata or a Tad (or Townshend/Tannoy -- but they're very expensive). There is also a FOuntek s-tweet that's priced logically. The Fountek mentioned above is a normal tweet (37kHz) and will only boost your audible hi-frequencies.
Measure yr main spkrs' power rating & make sure you equalise the s-tweet accordingly. Also make sure you place it correctly on the same vertical acoustic plane as the tweet while you're at it -- or you'll be out of phase with the tweet!
So,Gregm--Based on my set-up,in a dedicated room,with some acoustical damping(only to cut out any glare,and the room does have a wonderful,natural sound),do you think my idea is overkill.I,personally have NO problems with my current high freq presentation,but thought that if I added a super tweeter,it would level the playing field,with the "berylium/diamond dome" crowd.If there really is an audible advantage,to them.
Any thoughts would be appreciated!
Jtgofish. Hmmmmmmm.... .5uf or 1uf cap? Are you using an inductor in series with the cap?
I've been using Tonian Supertweeters (ribbon) with Harbeth C7s for a number of months. They've added openess, air, sparkle(the good kind - like finer musical nuance) along with extended highs. Tonian matched them for my speakers specifially and sent along extra resistors to adjust the output level if needed - didn't have to. I've also, for fun, tried them with Spendor 3/5s and got the same result. I'd have to say that anyone with Harbeths, Spendors, or (based on my listening in stores only) some models of Sonus Fabers would really like these tweeters.
I can't say whether they'd be useful with speakers that claim to go to 25khz anyway but Tonian claims they have output to 40,000hz. Tonian offers a home trial but they are expensive. However, I find them indespensible.
Sirspeedy- I'm not sure it's overkill, I'm just wary of the cost-benefit.
Yr room treatment obviously addresses reflections (you mention "glare"). By adding a s-tweet you'll be adding HF sp on axis & (assuming a ~30degrees dispersion) and some reverberant sound as well (you'll effectively overcome part of the room treatment): so, you might perceive more "air" and HF harmonics will be more pronounced, even at low volumes. From yr description, you don't need a s-tweet for high volume listening.
This may be useful for cd as there typical response peters out after 10kHz or so -- the energy level falls.
TO put things plainly, the advantage of a s-tweet is that its response limit is so high up that the audible HF are well within its linear region. The disadvantage is that it won't play as low as a regular tweet... Most spkrs start dropping in room, around 10kHz or so, & a s-tweet will cover +10Khz easily (and that's audible).
Best thing would be to borrow one -- possible? Try at low AND high spl. Cheers
Gregm...What's with this 10 KHz roll off with CDs and speakers? My disc player measures flat to the top of my spectrum analyser,20 KHz, and, before equalization, my Maggie MG1.6QR only falls off in the highest 1/6 octave band (just below 20 KHz). It is true that music, whether on LP or CD, typically has rolled-off energy above about 10 KHz.
I know that my ability to hear pure sine wave signals quits around 14KHz or so, but I can still "hear" the effect of tweeters and supertweeters much higher than this. I think this is because a music signal generally has waveforms that are as steep as a sine wave at 20KHz or higher, and the ear (at least mine) senses the steepness of the waveform.
Eldartford, I don;t doubt yr disc player measures flat on a sine & yr maggies likewise. Try (if feasible) to measure response (FR + PR) on a musical signal at listening position in room & compare to what's on the storage medium -- say the cd in this case.
As to your ears, they are possibly "sensing" a combination two things. 1) that there is info beyond 14kHz (which is what you note, so I'll take yr word for it), because, 2) there is no steep/sudden barrier/filter/drop over 14kHz -- i.e. the sound continues even if yr accuity drops.
People listening to linear extended HF reproduction find the sound "softer" than when there is a sharp roll off within the audible range. Cheers
Gregm...I am not sure I understand exactly your suggestion, but I have noticed that when playing music the spectrum measured by the microphone (real sound) on one analyser is amazingly alike to the spectrum measured (by a second analyser) for the electrical signal. Of course both displays are constantly changing, so an exact comparison is not possible but close correlation is obvious. As I said, it surprises me how close this is, what with room effects and all.
I must admit that due to extensive research,the Muratas look to be more to my needs!Time will tell,as I'm going to take the plunge,for one of them,at least.Thanks for all feedback,guys!
ELdartford... that's a good thing. Losses are usually visible (slightly, but still). You must have equalised yr reproduced sound very well!
Gregm...Credit should go to the Behringer auto equalization process. All I do is push the buttons.
Where can you buy Muratas ?
Are they simple hook up to speaker terminals?
I haven't gotten to the purchase point yet,so don't know where to get them.I would assume the website has the info.They do seem to be of real quality,as is much of the "Extreme Japanese Stuff"!I'm really leaning towards them,big time!
Ozzy and Sirspeedy, I have been using the Muratas for two years now. I have heard the Townshends, but a demo at CES caused me to leap to the Muratas. I have never regretted the decision and would not think of selling them.
Presently I use them with Acapella LaCampenellas which are supposed to go to 30K Hz. The Muratas add greatly to the realism of the recording venue. Initially, Ii bought them for use with my Beauhorns which needed help on the top end.
The demo played the same passage with the Murata in and then without them. Everyone clamored to go back to with them in. There was much discussion about them with no music being played. Finally someone asked to listen to only the Muratas. The demonstrator said, "you have been listening to only the Muratas for some time." When we all focused on the sound, we heard no music at all, only snaps and pops.
I am told my an ear, nose, and throat doctor that there is research that suggests we cannot hear much beyond 15k Hz but can sense well beyond that. Certainly, I much prefer to have the super tweeters in and somewhat outside my speakers.
TBG,great post.I'm starting to save up.