Some new videos about B-60 if anyone missed:
Disassembling B-60 replica
Damping B-60 replica
And this old video to show how it works @ct0517
Disassembling B-60 replica
Damping B-60 replica
And this old video to show how it works @ct0517
Anyone try the replica B-60 Fidelity Research VTA?
My sammle moved not only up an down but also sidewards.
The reason as far as I can judge is the pin on the screw
which connect the inner and the outer collar. The inner collar
slides along this pin up and down but if there is
any play between this pin and the notch of the inner collar
the tonearm will move also sidewards. This means that the
'replica' is not as 'exact' as claimed by the producer.
I assume that this screw is better made by the orginal B-60 .
The reason as far as I can judge is the pin on the screw
which connect the inner and the outer collar. The inner collar
slides along this pin up and down but if there is
any play between this pin and the notch of the inner collar
the tonearm will move also sidewards. This means that the
'replica' is not as 'exact' as claimed by the producer.
I assume that this screw is better made by the orginal B-60 .
99 responses Add your response
Can one of you please tell me how much the Cart VTF - "Vertical Tracking Force" changes..... from the low range point of the B60 to the high range point ? Measure your carts VTF at the B60 lowest point, and the B60 highest point .... please. I am curious I stated in my previous post I never owned the B60 hence I would like to know the VTF difference. thanks |
ct0517, The answer to your question will vary according to how the tonearm is installed into the B60. If, for example, the lowest adjust point on the B60 places the tonearm parallel to the LP surface, then the highest adjust will raise the rear end of the tonearm with respect to the LP surface and will therefore slightly increase VTF. And you can see how the result will change, for example, if the lowest adjust point on the B60 places the tonearm either raised or lowered, at its pivot point. So, yes, there will always be a change in VTF associated with changing VTA, but there is no rule you can derive from the experiment you asked us to do, unless you know how each responder positioned the tonearm to begin with. |
chakster Chakster. I did not say concern, I said curiosity. I am curious and asked for information from someone reading on this thread with a B60. Surely with a slick accessory like the B60 it's what, a 3-4 minute exercise, to give me a number. i.e. If when the B60 is set at the low point, and your cart weight is say 2.2 gms. How much then is the cart weight when you move the B60 to the highest point in the range - for that persons specific setup. That's the number I asked for ************************ Lewm Thank you Lewm. As I assumed. Still curious what the VTF range is for your B60 setup. btw - raising VTA lowers VTF and vice versa. IMO if this B60 raises and lowers the arm consistently and smoothly each time, as expected, it is a good accessory - as long as one remembers to re-adjust for VTF after. For this same reason the B60 does not make the tonearm VTA/SRA on the fly. Some carts are very sensitive to VTF changes. The changes in sounds we hear when changing the VTA /SRA could also be influenced by the higher or lower VTF. Just sayin.... Now if this B60 did this movement well, and at the same time kept VTF intact, (the same) - that's playing in a different league. I would call it an excellent accessory at this point ....even genius. ******************** Nandric (Nikola) Regarding VTA versus SRA. It may be a different "focused" area of measurement. But the target is the same. Relative angle of the stylus to the groove. In this hobby - and lets face it - to spend this much time discussing this one aspect - it is a hobby, the objective if possible is to try to duplicate as much as possible the actual cutters stylus angle. The included cut angle that is in the record. All of things that cause variations to these angles, both on the cutters side and the reproductive end (playing the record), are well documented. This means these adjustments we are making need to be done by ear because we have no idea who cut the record that day and at what angle. Again just saying.... Happy VTA'ing SRA'ing |
The question is ''what is the optimal B-60 adjustments and what are the variables''? The variables are the record thickness, the bodies and cantilevers (angle) dimensions and the length of the trench in the inside , moving part, of the construction. The trench determine max up and down movement of the arm. The ''initial conditions'' to be established are parallel position of the arm with stylus in the grove by recommended VTF. Easy to establish with those small ''levels'' put on the headshell. By positioning the arm in the B-60 halfway in the trench one get the optimal position for up and down adjustment. For ''on the fly adjustment'' one need, in my opinion , to remove the sticky silicon oil and substitute for grease. Much more smooth movement of the arm. This means no force is needed to move the round adjuster. In order to get repeatable results one need to use test records. I try to get at least 60 microns pure by each of my MC carts. If possible that is. Anyway 50 microns as minimum. For masochist who like to adjust those variables by hearing there is sufficient ''up an down'' space for their trial. |
ct0517, The change in VTF associated with the typical minute adjustments to VTA/SRA is not worth worrying about. You can calculate it as a percentage change, if you know your geometry and vector algebra, but it will be tiny and not worth your concern, at least not to the degree that you appear to be concerned. Do you change VTA (or SRA) with every LP? I cannot be bothered. Anyway, changing VTA by using the B60 is no different, in terms of its affect on VTF, from changing VTA by any other method. So, if you are one who changes VTA frequently, and if you perceive this to be a problem with respect to VTF, the B60 is neither here nor there, except that it is a very convenient way to change VTA, if you own an FR64 or 66 tonearm. I happen to think there is a secondary benefit to the B60; it adds considerable mass to the base of the tonearm, which (I think) helps to soak up resonant energy and improves coupling to the turntable and bearing. |
Dear Lew, I don't agree with you assertion that B-60 will work as any other VTA adjuster. The reason is dynamic function of the FR-64. This means that both dynamic function as well VTF adjustment are function of the same spring. I am not mechanical engineer but don't believe that this spring will work different depending from the ''up'' or ''down'' position of the arm in relation to the record surface. |
@ct0517 Chakster. I did not say concern, I said curiosity. I am curious and asked for information from someone reading on this thread with a B60. Surely with a slick accessory like the B60 it’s what, a 3-4 minute exercise, to give me a number. I would be happy to give that numbers to you, but my B-60 + FR-64s has not been mounted yet on a turntable as i have FR-64fx right there at the moment. @lewm The change in VTF associated with the typical minute adjustments to VTA/SRA is not worth worrying about. You can calculate it as a percentage change, if you know your geometry and vector algebra, but it will be tiny and not worth your concern, at least not to the degree that you appear to be concerned. Do you change VTA (or SRA) with every LP? I cannot be bothered. Exactly, i don’t care about it at all. Also i don’t have any cartridge (i have about 20) that is so sensitive to the VTF or VTA, there is a range giving by the menufacturer anyway. In other words i just don’t understand people who are crazy about VTF/VTA for each record. If everything set up correctly i can not detect any difference in minor changes in my system which is very sensitive. Reed 3p is my favorite tonearm when it comes to a proper adjustment of everything on the fly. I am thinking about B-60 as a resonance control and a proper tonearm base and stabilizer, i do not adjust VTA for each record, i do that for each cartridge. Without B-60 the FR-64s is not good in my opinion. Without the B-60 i love the FR-64fx. |
N Andric, I think you are saying that the VTF in the FR 64S is largely governed by the spring that applies the VTF Which is controlled by a rotary knob on the side of the tonearm. I don’t think that makes any difference. If you have adjusted VTF with the arm wand level to the LP surface, and then you crank the B60 downward , there would be additional force over and above the adjusted VTF, distributed according to the new angle of the arm with respect to the surface of the LP. In words, there is always some additional gravitational force on the tonearm in addition to whatever you have cranked in using the spring. The spring doesn’t cancel gravity. Try it and see. |
Dear Lew, Each time you mention or suggest Newton I feel uneasy. Sometime I have difficulty to remember the name of my mom while you ''demand'' from me to remember physics from my college of 60 years ago. So instead of ''your gravity argument'' I will use the ''pudding argument'' . I performed ''some'' repeatable experiments which are ''scientific'' in the sense that anyone who owns both the FR-64 and B-60 (+ measuring scale) should get the same result. My ''theory'' was that the spring tension in the VTF adjuster by the FR-64 ''does not care'' at which level the tonearm is in relation to the VTF. So I started with parallel position , the scale on the (SP 10) platter at the level of the ordinary (170g) record. The VTF was exactly 2 g. Then I moved the arm up to about 2-3 mm and measured again the VTF which was as before 2 g. Then I moved the arm to its original (parallel position) and from there for 2-3 mm down . I got again 2 g as result. I think that the only way to refute my finding is to put some huge magnets under your beloved SP 10,III when measuring the ''up'' and ''down'' position on your B-60 (grin). |
nandric My ''theory'' was that the spring tension in the VTF adjuster by the FR-64 ''does not care'' at which level the tonearm is in relation to the VTF. So I started with parallel position , the scale on the (SP 10) platter at the level of the ordinary (170g) record. The VTF was exactly 2 g. Then I moved the arm up to about 2-3 mm and measured again the VTF which was as before 2 g. Then I moved the arm to its original (parallel position) and from there for 2-3 mm down . I got again 2 g as result.Those are the results I'd expect when a pickup arm adjusts VTF in that fashion. That's why it's called "dynamic" balancing as opposed to "static" balancing. |
Dear Cleeds, Look at my previous post (12-10-2018). I mention there already dynamic function of the FR-64. There are hardly any perfectly flat records. That is why dynamic tonearms are invented. Static tonearms will react different by ''crooked'' records. Losing pressure (=weight, force) ''down'''and increasing pressure ''up''. But you need to convince lew(m) not me (grin). |
Nandric, One rule of thumb in laboratory science is never to let your results dissuade you from an otherwise attractive hypothesis. So, first of all, congratulations to you for having the patience to do the experiment. My first reaction would be that your experiment illustrates just how minute are the changes in VTF associated with changing arm height at the pivot by only 2-3mm; minute enough that your SFG doesn’t detect it. However, there is also the remote possibility that I was wrong; dynamic balance does eliminate or at least ameliorate the amount of change in VTF associated with small changes in VTA. I was wrong once before, in 1952, so I suppose it’s possible that I’m wrong again. Once every 66 years is still a good batting average. But seriously, it depends upon how the dynamic balance apparatus works inside the FR64S. I’ve never seen a cut-away drawing. Nor have I taken one apart. You start by static balancing the tonearm and cartridge so the arm wand floats horizontally in air at the VTF setting = 0. Then you twist the knob to achieve the desired final VTF. In some way, the device creates a downforce equal in magnitude to the setting on the venier (or near equal). It would seem to me that the spring-loaded downforce would still be subject to changes in loading (meaning the shift in vector forces) at the business end of the tonearm (the stylus), when the vertical position of the pivot point goes up or down in relation to the stylus tip. But I am willing to admit, maybe not. If not, I’d like to understand why not. I’ve read all the propaganda about dynamic balance preserving VTF over warps, etc, and I’ve swallowed it whole, until now. Aha! I see how you guys might be correct. The downforce is entirely supplied by the built-in mechanism. Therefore, it is, over a certain part of the arc of the pivot point, independent of gravity (because the arm "thinks" it's balanced, end to end, like a seesaw). It would be, so long as the artificial downforce, supplied presumably by springs, remains linear as the arm moves up and down due to LP warps and whatever else would perturb the tonearm. At some point, as the arm wand moves down or up with respect to the pivot, I would not expect the force to remain constant, because the force of a spring is directly proportional to its compression or extension. But for all practical purposes, I concede. |
Chakster Slavic Riddle What is the common element between someone that owns 20 (+) cartridges, and uses them all; and someone that changes VTA for every record ? |
Nikola - A high level answer outside of the riddle scope. You have posted based on A and B conditions being met in the past. A and B added to the Riddle. What is the common element between A) someone that owns 20 (+) cartridges, and uses them all; and B) someone that changes VTA for every record ? ***************************** Hint - This common element to A and B is measurable by observation. ***************************** Chakster - it is customary to provide a guess to a riddle. |
Slavic Riddle Answer Based on my personal, and friends experiences over the years, I have noticed; "That both A and B types, regardless of the "titles" count in their library, will listen to a "set number" of repeatable records (reference points) , that can be counted on no more than two human hands. That is the common element." The most extreme case of this was a fellow I came across who used no more than 5 records. It took all day to play those 5 records with all his fiddling. He did this a couple times a week. It was evident that his vinyl routine was very therapeutic for him. with that. Lewm Lewm To change VTA for every record would require one to be a "B Type" if going by the Slavic Riddle. (grin) Well, I have not been in this state for at least three + years now; although I enjoy talking tech/setup on the forum ......and find it therapeutic. These days I am trying to get through the library. I select/pull 8 different albums, each time I will have a vinyl session. (each U-S cleaning session 15 mins, does 4 records). 30 mins prep while the gear warms up. I clean them and listen to them in full. Then I sort them into one of two libraries. The regular storage library, like where they came but with a label of "cleaned". The other library known as "I want to hear them again." All using an average VTA setting. Some VTA information from the ET2 tonearm owners manual regarding getting in the ball park with VTA, before fine tuning.
|
''To change VTA for every record would require to be a 'B type''. But except for some weird masochist this make no sense. The most records are 170g which means the same thickness. Our ''initial conditions'' were parallel position of the arm in relation to the record surface. There is then no need to change the VTA. By 180 g. records one would need to increase the VTA for, say, 1mm . I am not aware of other record thickness so some ''rule'' for ''all records'' does not exist. If I was more brave I would say to my Professor: ''I am sorry but your question is not clear''. My experience is that most people (including some Professors) have no idea what ''all'' means. So how can they use this so called ''quantifier'' which function is to express generality in correct way ? ''All'',''most'', ''some'' are not names which function as reference or denoting. ''Someone has stolen my car'' express the assumption that ''there is a person such...'' etc. That is why this quantor is called ''existential''. It assumes existence of some person who has stolen my car. But if I forget where I parked my car or was drunk the assumption can't be true. |
dronepunk, Check eBay and the various sites where audiophile gear is for sale. Also check "Hi-Fi Shark". On that site, they collect "for sale" data from all other sites. I am confident you can eventually find what you are looking for. Friends, we are all in the older age group, except Chakster. Please wear gloves and masks when you are in a public place, and wash hands, and stay well. Chakster, too. I am a physician and a virologist. This virus scares me. |
I hope I am not using my age to often as excuse? But because of my age I forget to mention chakster suggestion to squeeze this damn screw with a pair of tongs. The material of which this screw is made is not steel but some softer material. So one can ''extend'' the diameter of this screw by (careful) squeezing force and repeat the trial till the screw fits the distance to the wrench. |
@dronepunk They are all gone and goes for crazy prices even for replica, the original Ikeda VTA base goes for insane price on used market too. @lewm thanks, it is strange that we’re not locked down yet here in St.Petersburg and people walking around like in Stockholm while situation is Moscow is almost like in Hell. |
Found a photo of the Ikeda vt-vta-06. It LOOKS exactly like a B60. Whether it accommodates the same tonearms or only modern Ikeda equivalents, I do not know. Wow it’s expensive! One consolation for the high price: Accessories like this one are highly desirable and will remain so over time, will never wear out or need rebuild unless you severely abuse it, so it's likely the resale value would remain high for many years or until vinyl dies again. |
I'm lucky enough to have both an original FR B60 and the Ikeda VTA-06. Yeah, they're basically the same level of quality and functionality. But the set-screws on the older B60 have gotten kind of gnarly - I don't have a hex key that really fits and grips them well - just very marginally. No such worries on the VTA-06. I can lock things down nice and tight. ALSO the VTA-06 has some lovely flat faces on its main barrel, rather than being completely smooth and round everywhere, which makes it far easier to tighten onto an arm-board. So the VTA-06 is the one I use on my main 64S & Koetsu setup. |
The reproduction B60 has those flat faces on the huge nut that fastens from below, if that’s the part to which you refer. Yes, it’s very handy for tightening but wasn’t so handy for loosening, when recently I wanted to dismount the B60. I couldn’t get a wrench in there, and I was not able to turn it by hand. I therefore decided I could live without ever removing the B60. That’s what you call pragmatism. Luis, True, the B60 is not required, but I think it does much more than add the convenience of VTA adjustment. Its mass (I think) per se acts as an energy sink for any vibrations that travel through the arm wand to the pivot, and it therefore adds a nice solidity to bass tones. I emphasize that this is an empiric reasoning on my part. I have not proven it. My FR64S is mounted in a B60 which sits in a custom made aluminum arm board on my QL10 (TT101) plinth. The arm board is further bulked up by a second heavy piece of aluminum that bolts up to the bottom of the board using a massive metric bolt. Thus the FR64S is very well anchored in a large mass of alu. (One reason I had difficulty removing the B60; it sits in a tight space.) I copied the concept from my Kenwood L07D. |
mulveling, I was not able to find expression ''gnarly'' in my English dictionary but assume that you mean ''worn out srews''. Those which function is to fasten the arm on the collar can be bought as separates. Also with the right Allen key. The original FR screws have an plastic piece on their ''nose'' to prefent damage on the aluminum skale or steel parts. I made those myself and glued on the screws ''nose''. I hope you will be able to fasten your ''old B-60'' firmly this way. |
For those with the Ikeda base, on the inside of the threaded shaft there is a slot with a pin that rides within that. Does your pin travel the entire length of the slot while using the adjuster knob? Mine goes all the way to the bottom but then only about halfway up the slot. I notice the Ikeda spec says 10mm of adjustment. I don’t think I’m getting that but I’ll measure tonight to be sure. |
I figured it out. If you don’t have the set screws that pinch the tonearm stalk all the way in the adjuster stops. Thought I had them in far enough but didn’t. The first thing I noticed with this part is WHY would you put the set screws in a location where they can hit the adjuster? Also, it’s tight getting a wrench in there and depending on the positioning your set screws they can be covered up which means you have to lower the adjuster to even be able to remove your arm. Oddly, if you look at various pictures of the Ikeda online the set screws don’t seem to always be in the exact same location. |
WHY would you put the set screws in a location where they can hit the adjuster?If you follow the instructions and do them up properly they dont hit the adjuster. depending on the positioning your set screws they can be covered up which means you have to lower the adjuster to even be able to remove your armThat’s to accommodate a large variation between turntables in the height of the platter surface relative to the armboard. You want to set the postion of the pillar shaft such that the arm is parallel to the record when the VTA adjustment is dead centre with the cartridge mounted - this gives you the maximum VTA +- adjustment. |
The original FR screws have an plastic piece on their ''nose'' to prefent damage on the aluminum skale or steel parts.Here's a good tip - In my experience as a high end dealer most folk do up grub screws too tight and damage the surface of the pillar. This means small adjustments can be difficult because the grub screw will find the dent. If your grub screws dont have the plastic tip, go to your gun cabinet and get some buckshot. Pop a lead pellet in the hole before you put the grub screw in. This means the grub screw pushes the lead pellet against the shaft and prevents gauging the pillar due to the soft lead buffer. |
@vortrex 10mm indeed, mine was a little "stuck" when it came, it helps if you wiggle the nob clockwise and couterclockwise a little, that did the trick with mine, and it runs all the way up to 10 mm https://www.dropbox.com/sh/otu3w7n0ljz1wax/AACVrPsqLYxVNpRIPBPxdTrza?dl=0 EDIT: I realized you were asking about the IKEDA base IT-VTA-06 not the B-60, my reply doesn't apply |
