The Heaven 11 Billie and the Pass XA25 are completely different animals: one is an all in one dac/phono/$2k class d integrated and the other (Pass) is a class a solid state amplifier only. Maybe cross shipping with something like a Peachtree is more comparable?
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Billie and Pass seem like very different products. The Billie seems like the perfect integrated for an apartment, perhaps a younger audiophile. The company makes one product, is that right? I considered it early on, but went with a company with a longer track record, Quicksilver. Later, I got a Pass XA 25, which is an amplifier and not an integrated. So, OP, your post is puzzling me. |
Apologies, I tend to be scatter brained. I’ll clarify. I’m in the market for a new solid state amp or hybrid. I am heavily considering either the Pass Labs XA-25 and some sort of preamp or the INT-25. I saw Steve Huff’s review of the Heaven 11 MK2 and it piqued my interest. He drew parallels between it and a Luxman and Pass Labs so it must have some redeeming qualities that perhaps make it excel beyond your average hybrid Class D amp. He seemed to be enamored with it at any rate. I know he has expensive tastes so maybe there’s something there.
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There is alot to unpack with your query.
First of all, the Heaven 11 Billie seems to be a really cool all in one and a bargain at anywhere near its price. Its likely to be compared with other all-in-ones like the Naim Atom or NAD. Its a superbly executed amp aesthetically and at its price, it should attract alot of attention from those new to the hobby, for those looking for a compact second system or for those looking to downsize box count and cash outlay. Is this pricepoint where the law of diminishing returns kicks in for a pre/dac/phono stage/amp? Probably. It might be all many ever need...but....is it a giant killer? Well, it depends on the giant right?
There is no free lunch, no matter who we are or what we wish. You may be the only person EVER to cross shop this amp with the XA25. They are NOT comparable in hifi terms but then the Billie and Pass are in different universes when it comes to price. You need a dac, a phono stage, a preamp and the associated cables to compare them. The XA25 would likely anchor a $15-25k system whereas with the Billie you could assemble a system for less than $4k...your money, your space, your decision.
The final part of my post is to carefully tread...I enjoy Huff's reviews. He is a nice guy by all accounts but he absolutely, positively and unabashedly is not remotely monogamous when it comes to gear. He falls in love with MOST EVERYTHING he reviews and in quite a few instances, he purchases the review sample. Then, some time passes and he sells the gear on. Nothing wrong with that but there is a pattern established. For a long time, one could see a pattern where he would buy something, do the review, exalt it, upgrade, repeat and then it would seem he would sell it all and start over as if the credit card bill came due. His more recent reviews seem to be more manufacturer driven, where they send the piece, either complimentary or at industry accommodation and then the review happens. For me to take his reviews for more than entertainment value, I would want to know how long he had it in his system, how it was provided to him (free, discounted purchase or on demo to return to the manufacturer). So, what does this mean to many?
Well, I believe he provides his honest opinion when reviewing but I also don't believe you will ever hear a neutral or negative review from him (or any other reviewer for that matter). I have emailed back and forth with him before and he was super responsive and forthcoming, and I appreciated the interaction. He might be the first to tell you though that his reviews should be taken in context and that you should try something for yourself. My only caveat is his reviews do not necessarily differentiate products in an articulate manner. You might be thinking because he discussed the Billie and the XA25 within the same review that the products are worthy of comparison. That's highly unlikely. They both play music....and they both play music.
Listen, its far easier to get excited about a $2k amplifier than a $25k amplifier....because if you can be satisfied with the Billie then you have truly found the holy grail in hifi. If you can listen and be happy, then thats all that matters. I think its great that someone is spending the time reviewing gear at every price point, that is a service to the hobby and the public who consumes music. I truly envy you if the Billie checks all of your boxes and most Audiogoners wish they didnt hear vast differences between power tubes or interconnects that cost more than the Billie.Try it, it might be everything you need or want. I certainly appreciate that products like the Billie are being introduced and I hope they experience a high volume of sales. Everyone wins....but it would be a bit of an overstatement to think that the Billie and the XA25 are apples and apples. |
Thanks for that reply, I really enjoyed it to be honest. I wish I could express myself even half as well as that. To your point, yes, I’m being over zealous even though I should know better. I’m fairly new to this world and I tend to get caught up in the excitement.
I noticed that about Huff as well. He will state that he’ll never sell this or that but a few videos later, it’s gone. He also talks to dead people so he’s definitely an interesting fella. |
I have found the Huff videos to be fun to watch, but they are puffery. He is in the business of getting clicks. His recent claim to have never truly appreciated subwoofers' contributions to his systems over 30 years until he had a phone call with John Hunter of REL was dumbfounding. Either he really is not an experienced audiophile or he has now decided to puff for REL. Well, either option is not great, but it jibes with his tendency to trade in superlatives and the aspirations of his viewers. |
I find his reviews to be some of the best on YouTube. He is not in bed with anyone and buys most of the gear he has and has been very transparent. I have gained a fair amount of equipment knowledge from watching his videos. His taste in music and gear are very much inline with mine so there is that. |
To each his own, I guess. To me, a good reviewer does not use reviews to push a product as "amazing" etc. No, they are assessed, warts and all. There are typically drawbacks, downsides, imperfections, etc. In other words, *balance.* Take a look at his recent review titles. He is blowing smoke for clicks, and that’s easy to see. HiFi: Speakers that I WILL NEVER forget. My Top 5! Watch Tarun: A British Audiophile and you’ll see someone who deploys judgment and criticism in order to grade the products he reviews. And not everything gets an "A+." He also does not talk to dead people, which is always a plus. |
Maybe he chooses to not write reviews of gear that does not preform well. I have watched many of his reviews and in most he has a section for cons or negatives. I watch the British Audiophile as well and do really enjoy his reviews. I have a small list of reviewers I trust on the tube. SoundNews, iiwi, British Audiophile and Steve Huff. I usually will watch a YouTube review and try to follow that up with actual end user reports to get an idea of the realism of the review. |
That's the practice of some reviewers, for sure. But in my opinion, he's full of hyperbole and exemplifies the approach and language of marketing and advertising. Marketing/advertising, in my view, is different than critical reviewing, just as science and business are different things. I suppose the question for me is, Would I trust this sort of person to recommend a heart surgeon? Not. A. Chance. |
Huff is just trying to monetize his channel. Nothing wrong with that.
He is also using the sale/resale of those items he buys at industry accommodation (or gets for free for reviewing them) and then after a period of time passes, he seems to sell them on. Nothing wrong with that either.
What’s wrong about this scenario is that innocent individuals (like yourself?) seem to give him and his reviews more credibility than is appropriate. The stuff he reviews is all varying degrees of good to great…which is also the current state of the gear being manufactured.
His system is moving up the foodchain because better manufacturers are willing to let him review their gear now. They are willing to do that because he is getting clicks. He is getting clicks because of his Ginsu knife headline clickbait. Nothing wrong with that either.
He is learing on the fly, just like many of us. His opinions aren’t necessarily invalid but they arent the same thing as Lavorgna or Atkinson or the late Art Dudley saying at the end of a review: “I bought this for my system”. Huff is cranking out seemingly a review per week…that’s not enough time to do one properly. But I get it, he’s trying to earn a living but Huff would likely agree that his reviews aren’t really intended to guide anyone, just to ad another data point.
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I agree with @ghasley too. The only way I’d demur a bit is that the word "review" helps lend credibility where essential elements of the review process -- a.k.a. honest criticism -- is missing. There is no F.D.A. approval process for this stuff, natch, but people do wind up getting misled by the lingo. Is that Huff’s fault for wanting to "monetize" (what a word) his channel? I suppose not, insofar as caveat emptor still applies. But from the standpoint of a hobbyist who wishes for the best sound for everyone, I suppose I’m made a bit sad when the process of intelligent evaluation is derailed just a little more by our contemporary P.T. Barnums wield 21st c. algorithmic technologies to make bank as they make shilling look like critical reviewing. |
I still feel as his content has great value and could care less if he is trying to make a dollar. If he is honest about his reviews that’s all I care about. So far the gear that I have purchased on his recommendation has been stellar. I will let you know how the Billie stacks up ones I get one in house. |
The essential points have already been well made. @ghasley ’s point is spot on. The SEC is publicly going after social media influencer investment “advisors” for their pump and dump schemes…as someone who works in that space, I am continually shocked at who and what people believe. This is audio, the stakes are much lower and the reality is there’s a lot of good gear out there. So if someone buys off a poorly credentialed “reviewer’s” recommendation, odds are they are not going to receive a heap of junk…but if they’re buying largely based on an influencer’s showmanship (or even this forum), they’re probably not doing as well as they could be doing, for their taste and budget. That said, not everyone has the time, the patience or the crazy to serially home demo gear (lol I cop to a higher than avg crazy level)…so with the rise of internet hifi shucksters, ironically the best thing may be to find a dealer you can trust, who cares about your long term happiness and isn’t going to oversell you (or undersell you!) |
it’s funny, and rather frightening... that a dude who churns out the ’next greatest thing he’s heard’ twice a month gets views, sways opinion, and more importantly, seemingly impacts buyer behavior... more social media churn, relentless internet ’info’ blasts... people really need to stop and think ... oh wait, don’t we realize that this daily onslaught and barrage is meant specifically to prevent that... 🤣 |
Interesting….as they say opinions are worth what you pay for them.
British Audiophile bores me to tears. I can’t make it through his reviews. We have different taste, for certain.
I’ve been fortunate enough to call Heaven11 and happened to get him when I called the company and spoken to Iti (sp?) when he picked up the phone.
Let me say he’s forgotten more than any 10 people here know about audio.
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@graphicguy I also can't watch the British Audiophile for the same reason lol. @tubeguy76 I think you should give a big long hard look into the Atma class D. Look into it, stare at it, read up about it. Then look at 'em again and put in cart and click buy. You're looking at great amp options. I've also gone down this path not too long ago. It was just an endless battle between A vs B vs C to no end. Ultimately I ended up with a BMC amp as fate would have it and very happy with what I got. But for you, Atma class D or the AGD Audions are 2 fantastic options. The Schitt Tyrs are more affordable and deserve a look as well. If you end up with the Kinki, make sure you upgrade the op-amps with the Staccato op-amps. |
Thanks for the suggestions. I was just looking at the Atma class D last night and it's a bit more $$$ than I can spend at the moment but they're on my short list. I'm still on the hunt for a higher power amp and I'll likely end up with some sort of Class D implementation. Higher power for me would be something that can do 200+ watts at 4 ohms. Mainly just to round out my amp collection and satisfy curiosity. |
Well, apparently Mr. Huff's lifetime speakers, the Fleetwood Devilles, have been knocked off the pedestal as he has bought the review pair of his latest speaker review, the Focal Diablo Colour Evo mark 75 or whatever its called. Hard to argue, Focal makes great stuff. Of particular importance for you is in the review, he continues to speak quite highly of the Billie....peace. |
He had already upgrade to the Deville SQ.
Listen, if the Billie sucked the sentiment would be deafening. There has never been a time in hifi where there is more great stuff at reasonable prices. Its the high end chase that garners headlines and the chirping about "thats over priced" is always humorous. Buy the Billie...the max exposure is $2k and the happiness factor is probably off the charts. |
@tubeguy76 They have 30 day trial, 5 years warranty. If you do return, I believe they don't take back the tubes part. No big deal. Be prepared to keep the Billie amp though. I truly believe it's an incredible all in 1 piece. Before you buy, talk to the owner, see what kind of differences you can expect from the regular tube vs the gold tubes that come with the amp. It might just make the difference between being in love with the amp vs not. Regarding power. The atma is 200 watts into 4-ohms, I believe its limit is somewhere around 230-250. You can keep it on all day night without a sweat, said so by Ralph. Oh regarding power, I can tell you I don't even use 1 watt in my amp. And my speakers are 85db sensitivty. |
@jjss49 |
@tubeguy76 I’d be curious to hear, also. Even if you do like the Billie, the question for me would then redound to other factors to compare with other contenders: How long has the company been in business? How is their service for units which need a fix? What do used units sell for? How do they pair with other things? (E.g. Is the Billie’s preamp good enough that if you wanted the a different amp, you’d stick with the Billie as a preamp only?) These were all factors which (a) pushed me away from the Billie and (b) toward separates. I am so glad I have a Pass XA 25 for all the reasons above -- company reputation and service, used market value, flexibility as a single function device, and pair-ability with other components. |
@tubeguy76 if you look on Steve Huff’s website he is selling his Billie for $1,400 which makes it a pretty compelling value if you really are leaning that direction. A friend emailed me that, besides listing his Billie for sale, Mr. Huff has also listed his DCS Lina Dac for sale. |
@samureyex I’m not sure I would draw any conclusions whatsoever from Mr. Huff’s gear swaps.
Like many of us, I enjoy his reviews/videos but there will always be something new on the horizon. Once again, his credibility would be well served to avoid the last bit of hyperbole in his reviews where he often states “this is my forever thing” because the next forever thing will materialize a short time later. He has carved out a cool niche, one that many of us would be pleased to occupy, where he frequently gets to try new things.
That’s why I appreciate Lavorgna(Twittering Machines), Reichert(Stereophile), the late Art Dudley, some of the Audiophiliac reviews but Lavorgna and Reichert though lay out what they are hearing and how it might apply to the reader. Mr. Huff is gathering an audience but it would serve him well to evolve away from “its so good I bought it and its my new reference” reviews because weeks/months later its for sale. He doesn’t owe any of us any more transparency but it sure begs the question is he buying low and selling high. |
ah yes, huff and his reference gear...this week and maybe next.... but likely not the week after... draw your own conclusions -- he is a passionate audiophile, but it doesn’t take a brain surgeon to see there is a different game being played here for those of us not in the video making/monetization/churn business, the smart way to try stuff is to buy at a fair price used from a decent seller, then resell if it doesn’t meet expectations... there is work and effort involved, and an occasional disappointment along the way dealing with people, but in my experience, it is worth it |
@ghasley @jjss49 I think some people just like to try new things, and they get bored of what they currently own. More people suffer from this than we like to admit. Huff does keep some stuffs he really likes like his Deville and the Pass. @jjss49 I recently started buying locally in the state and loving the experience. Kinda addicted really. Wish I had more funds to explore. |
I purchased the Billie mk2 about five months ago and I must say, it’s an incredible amp. It pushes my Pure Audio Project trio 15’s to excellent clear levels. The background is pitch black and not a hiss or sound from my speakers, dead quite. I believe when you pair a well put together amp, TT (td124, mitch cotter, Garrard 301) and dac(gustard)with fine speakers you can make beautiful music once set up correctly. I listen to many genres, rock, blues, jazz, soundtracks etc...everything I threw at the Billie were handled easily. What impressed me the most, was the tight base response. Wind and string instruments were also exceptional. The built in phono was also very good, and sounds even better if you have a great SUT. I’ve heard the pass lab equipment in my home, and yes it’s beautiful and expensive. The question should be, how much more are you really getting in musical quality with a 10, 15 or 25k dollar amp compared to a reasonably price 2k amp? I’ll tell you, not much. I’m a tube gear head, 300bs, el34s, kt120s etc...and my equipment is not cheap by any means, ive heard a lot and know when im listening to something special. This was my first experience with a class d amp and i believe adding the tube pre was genius in the Billie and how it was executed. All I have to say, is try it, I think you’ll be blown away. And yes, Huff is convincing, but I listened to him and that’s how I found out about the Billie. Don’t be caught up that a system needs to cost 25k for it to sound great, it’s synergy baby! |
Just a little experience with Itai (President of Heaven11). I bought his personal demo unit BillieAmp. He said he had it tested, replaced the tubes, updated firmware before shipping. Being a demo (allegedly his personal amp), no 30-day trial but did come with a 1 year warranty.
The thing hummed like a dozen hummingbirds. And, only on one source (analog)…even if no source was connected. Send Itai a vid of the amp humming. He agreed it was bad. Sent it back. His staff couldn’t fix it.
Again, under warranty, but he could not fix it. Wouldn’t replace it. And, to rub salt in the wound, made me pay for shipping to get the amp back.
I tried different receptacles, tried an eliminator, tried another power cord, tried it with and without sources connected. Tried two different set of speakers. Tried different speaker wire sets. STILL HUMMED LOUDLY!
I paid him 5 figures for a paperweight. He won’t even honor the warranty!
I think he bends over backwards for the YouTube folks. But, a cash customer? I’m stuck. If you get one that works, great! If not? Too bad, so sad! Buyer beware! |
@graphicguy Sorry about your troubles with the Billie folks. After they attempted a repair, did they say if the "hum" was still present? Have you tried the amp at a friend's house or maybe a local HIFI store to eliminate your house as a variable? I recently had a bad 60hz hum with a pre-owned tube preamp and I made a long thread about it trying to remedy it. I ended up opening it and found a ground wire that was broken from its terminal and now it's fine. Probably dislodged during shipping. If you'd like, I can try your Billie at my house - I'll pay for shipping. Bit of a trust issue I suppose but I'd be happy to help you trouble shoot it. |
My two cents but not about the Billie. There is a lot of good stuff out there and the price points seem to be dropping for better stuff. However, the other factor with the reviewers is that they are getting products to review from some manufactures. So you will see about 4 or 5 reviews on the same product like the Billie because the reviewers are being supplied with the product. What you have to remember is that there are numerous other manufacturers who are smaller and even one man shows who either do not or can't supply this endless supply of YouTube reviewers with sample products to review. So that's why I think it is a good idea to come to forums like this to get ideas from experienced users who have a wealth of experience and know about various products that maybe you've never considered or heard of. The Billie is the first or only hybrid amp -- it is just the one that is being pushed out by all the YouTube reviewers. That doesn't mean it isn't good but there are probably others which have done the same or similar thing that don't get the "press." |
@tubeguy76 …sorry it’s taken a while to respond. I actually went on vacation to Alaska.
I appreciate the offer. I had sent the BillieAmp to a YouTuber (skunkiedesigns.com). The lady who runs it does some of her own designs but also critiques different units). Not sure, but I think she’s an electrical engineer…nice lady. Anyway, she said the hum of the BillieAmp, on any outlet that she tested, on a multitude of audio set ups, was constantly present. Like me, she tried all the usual fixes with no luck. She believed that while the case was nice, the internals were not probably audio grade PCB’s or point wiring was haphazard. Up until that point, Haven11’s president, Itai, really tried to push off the warranty on the unit. He refused to admit anything was wrong, even though I sent him videos of the issue. When he found out a YouTuber had the unit, he changed his tune and took it back. He gave me a refund, but not until I had dropped hundreds of dollars shipping it to him and paying to have it shipped back, diagnosis fees, and shipping it to and from the YouTuber to fix it. He finally agreed that something was wrong. But, by that time, I was out about $300 even after he refunded the purchase price. My communications with him led me to believe he was kind of a huckster. He sent pre-tested units to reviewers while the regular units that are shipped to normal users were dicey. In short, proceed with caution. Their support is poor and QC isn’t any better. I question their viability in the audio community with only one product, too. |
