I have a Platine. Absolutely love it. I like the solidity of the music that flows from it. And it is certainly a set and forget machine. I know lots of other TTs use massive platters w/o any special bearing support, and they seem to be fine like that. But that's an awful lot for a point load on a thrust bearing. For me, I like the fact that the Platine's platter dosen't rely on that type of system. The bearing will NEVER wear out, that's for sure. And no worries about future increases in bearing rumble.
I agree with Bigbuck,JC Verdier TT is simple design and easy to set,not much maintanance and looks good.It sound very good compare with other TT with the price range.I think it is selling on Audiogon with the user name Buyersum.I bought the TT from him.You won,t disappointed with that beauty.
Arthur Salvatore recommends the Verdier La Platine here: http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Tables.html with some insights
I own a Galibier Gavia (but with the older Teflon/aluminum platter), and I have been very pleased with its sound quality and reliability.
I have heard the Platine Verdier a number of times but not in my own system or in a comparison with the Galibier. It is clearly a good sounding table also, and it's been around for practically forever. That should count for something.
There are two aspects about the PV that would lead me to choose the Galibier over it. First, the Galibier is powered by battery, whereas the PV has a wall-powered DC supply. I have tried it both ways and the battery makes a significant improvement in detail and dynamics. I understand there are some after-market battery arrangements for the PV, in England I believe, but you're on your own there. Second, I believe the Galibier's tape drive provides better speed stability than the string used in the PV.
I think that either table, if set up carefully, is capable of superb vinyl playback. You really can't go wrong with either one.
Hope this helps.
I too own a Verdier Platine. I love it. I agree with everything said above about it. I can't compare it to Galibier because I've never heard one. I use a Harmonix mat and clamp system on the platter. My tonearm is a DaVinci 12" with a Dynavector XV-1s.
I have a PV with a Battery PSU made by GT Audio in the UK (www.gt-audio.com). Once set up, the only thing you have to do once in a while is top up the oil in the bearing through a tiny grub screw by the record spindle - easy job , takes two minutes. Like the other comments, the PV is a great platform for the music. The addition of a battery PSU elevates it to a significantly higher plane - it lowers the noise floor substantially and improves the dynamic range and makes it quiet.
Graham Tricker at GT Audio in the UK is also the manufacturer of TRON tube amplifiers. distrbuted by Jeff at Highwater Sound in the US. If you want a 110V Battery PSU, I am sure that Graham can make one for you. He exports to lots of happy clients around the world and is a great and honest guy to deal with.
The PV does not, IME, have quite the dynamic strength and punch that a Galibier is likely to have. My Teres 320 has more PRaT than a PV, for exactly the same reasons Salectric named (tape drive vs. silk thread). Belt stability and grip make a huge difference in lifelike reproduction from LP's.
Battery power is also a benefit. It lowers the noise floor and removes any 60Hz leakage that could affect absolute speed stability in the motor. This too is audible in a good system, though less so than belt differences IME.
OTOH, that zero-friction PV bearing has some benefits. It ought to last literally forever, as BigBucks5 already pointed out. The bearing in a Galibier or Teres does support a lot of weight, and they definitely do not last forever. (Trust me.)
OTOOH, the floating PV bearing alters the platter height depending on record weight. If you're the set-and-forget type for arm height you might find this "self-adjusting" record height rather annoying. If you set SRA for every LP, as I do, it might not be such a big deal since you'll be adjusting arm height anyway.
Ah, for the perfect turntable. Maybe I should just learn to sing and play the violin. :-)
I own a Galibier table with the new graphite interface platter. I have not owned a PV but have been able to hear one on several occasions. Unfortunately, those listening sessions occured in rooms with poor acoustics.
I agree with Salectric and Doug re: battery power and tape drive. The Galibier is an excellent table which is very much "set it and forget it." The sound is remarkable. I have owned many tables over 40 years and none came close to the Galibier. I was new to the high mass design but I am a true believer now.
One of the more positive aspects of the Galibier is the relationship you will build with Thom. He is fantastic to work with. I felt that I was part of the build process. The PV is a great sounding table but I would definately go for Thom's table.
Dear "Sir Douglas",unless you have compared the two tables in A/B comparisons,you are merely speculating as to what should sound like what!Also,an "important" aspect of the PV bearing system(or lack of)is that there will be no friction,like a good air bearing design.This surely will have a beneficial impact on performance.That is the "selling point",not reliability.
Sort of like your second favorite tonearm,s "claim to fame",the lack of a bearing resonant signature which negatively impacts the harmonic structure of music.
I'm assuming this,by now,based upon the time frame I was given,can be confirmed by the "probably great by now" Cello's system(not that it was chopped liver when I heard it).I'm assuming,of course,that he has gotten a nice package from Germany!!
But you most likely know this already. -:)
PS-I hope my post does not get too bad a "shrug" from the "great Paul",since you surely must know,by now,that my set-up has been down for a couple of months,and MR Scorpion is getting agitated,and may be waking again. -:)
I've had the PV for over a year. My previous tt for over ten years was a Townshend rock III. The PV is one amazing tt, so much so that I don't listen to cds (through a Wadia 16) anymore. Its strength is its ability to simply let the music flow. Ease of set up and maintenance is also its plus. But most importantly, it just makes you want to listen to music. And mind you, I am pairing it with a SME V and Shelter 501. This is not considered the strongest supporting cast. So the strength of the tt will only improve with further upgrades.
Come to Denver with some of us May 13 and find out for yourself what a Galibier and Teres have to offer. Sorry, you'll have to find out what the PV sounds like on yer own. :)
Doug, your comments leave me wondering about bearings and the experiments you mentioned that Chris had tried. Thom is off, I believe to Toronto for the week, so we may not get a response from Galibier about bearing life. I know that you're probably considering that the Teres and Galibier bearing are similar, but I wonder how much they have grown apart.
I know Basis also uses a fairly hefty platter on their higher end tables. Those bearing last for quite some time. I have to admit I don't know the details of the differences in bearing designs between the tables discussed here.
Newbie curiosity: As the platter spins, is the repulsion of the magnets so precise and evenly distributed that the elevation of the platter remains constant within minimal tolerances? If so, it is impressive engineering. I assume that the minimal tug of the string pulling the platter does not disrupt the bearing holding the magnets in alignment.
The magnets are very large in diameter. The shaft/sleeve (bearing) clearance is minimal. You can watch the platter rotate, and it doesn't move up and down at all. Different record weights affect platter height imperceptibly, and if it actualy does, would tend to compensate for the presumably thicker LP with respect to cantilever SRA.
If you think that's a problem, you can use the supplied ball bearing to fix the height of the platter so it is unaffected by weight increases or decreases. Some say the use of the ball improves performance by providing a path to the bearing housing for spurious vibrations.
Interesting ideas about the PV's magnetic bearing. So when exactly did you hear a PV and a Galibier in the same system?
I don't know where Thom may have taken his bearing, but the description on his site still sounds pretty familiar to a Teres owner.
Our new one is operating just fine. The experimental one failed but it was just an experiment. "Sir" Paul and I would prefer even harder materials for the bearing surfaces. Not only for longevity but for reduced friction, as emphasized by Bigbucks5 and SirSpeedy.
Just caught this, and off to Ottawa in the morning.
I don't know what all this talk of bearing wear is about. The longest running rig I've been able to inspect is going on 4.5 years old now and I don't see any sign of thrust bearing wear beyond the break-in dimple that forms during the first 30 hours of operation.
We never left Delrin for the thrust surface. In our experiments, we got a slightly more incisive sound with metal thrust plates (as if we needed it), but our trials with stainless and brass gave us the "willies" in terms of the possibility of risk of galling. Once we observed this with one sample, we were unwilling to take the long term risk when the Delrin served us so well.
Also, keep in mind that the thrust plate is replaceable as well as having two sides available for use. It can be flipped over.
In response to Doug's question, apart from minor geometry changes (wider top support flange and expanded central oil reservoir), it's essentially the same bearing that Chris, I, and the other three constituents of the "Teres-5" collectively designed in January of 2000. I assume that Chris is still implementing a replaceable thrust plate too.
Those of you coming to the Front Range on the 13th and 14th would have had the opportunity to hear a Schröder clad Platine-Verdier, but I just learned that it's owner put it up for sale.
Thom @ Galibier
Dougy,how could you come to the conclusion,from my post,that I have ever heard both tables together.Re-read my post,and it is clear that you misinterpreted my point.You seem to do that often,but I still love you.
Also,the business of bearing friction should be obvious to anyone in the hobby for a length of time.Hmm-:)
BTW,I'm making no judgements about the supposedly wonderful Galiber,as I've not heard one,and don't know alot about the design,other than it seems to be similar to the Teres.Though I like it's looks,and lack of wood better.Just my taste.Which should mean nothing,as you must remember I'm the expert on the finest of "cheap wines"!So what do I know!
I can corroborate Thom's statements regarding lack of bearing wear. I took apart the bearing in my Galibier after about a year of frequent use, and was somewhat surprised to see no indication of wear at all, other than a little dimple in the Delrin as Thom described. The oil really didn't look any different from when I installed it a year earlier. This is in contrast to some reports that I've read involving metal-on-metal designs, where users have reported the oil having particulate matter.
I don't see any real threat to a table owner's security regarding bearing friction or wear,providing it comes from a reliable,proven manufacturer.No problemo with any mentioned in these threads,as far as I'm concerned.
Just take a look at some of the "mega heavy platter" offerings on the market.Some going for big,bigger,biggest bucks.Though a heavier platter will most likely wear the bearing sooner,I haven't heard of many that do this for a "long time",and if the manufacturer is a responsible one,there's no problem in correcting it.
To my way of thinking,the "type of bearing" design should have a direct impact on perceived sound,along with a myriad of other parameters,obviously.Yet,since we are talking "bearings" my feelings are,that the best sounding bearing is "almost no bearing".Sort of!!Like a well designed opposing magnet design,for simplicity,in no friction.Or,a really great air bearing,which adds the "pain in the tush factor",like pumps and hosing,but will sound "fabs".You've got to go big bucks for the Walkers/Rockports/Continuum.As well as big "dough" for the Blue Pearl and Platine Verdiers of the world.I wish I had the money and "lazy day time" on my hands to simply play with all the stuff I've come to be a fan of.
This leaves a nice gap for the Galibers/Teres'/Sotas/Basis' to come into play.All great stuff!Simple and reliable goes a long way!
To me,the "table bearing issue" is likened to the "tonearm bearing issue".The closer you can get to "almost" no bearing,the better the sound "should" be.
It's been proven to me through listening,in arms,and this is why I love the better Air Bearing designs.Yet I am still willing to bet the house on very similar performance from the Schroder Ref,even though I may NEVER hear it.I just like it's design appeal,and there has been too many raves about it,to disbelieve any of it.
I already told my offspring I want my epitaph to read--"A fairly good tennis player,who NEVER heard a Schroder"!-:)
Yeah,I know I'm going overboard,but as I've mentioned in other posts,my system is getting updates,and won't be up for another month.I have little else to do,except to bug some of you.Sorry!!
SirSpeedy, I feel your pain. I've been 'table-less for nearly six months and as of last Wednesday my system is totally down.
I agree with you about bearing wear not being much of an issue on most any of the higher end tables. Including many we haven't mentioned here. As for bearing design I think it is one of those parts of 'table design that is dependant on many other things. For example, some designers use the bearing to sink vibrations away from the cartridge. I'm sure Walker and the JC designer have other methods for dealing with platter vibrations. IMHO, it is alot like the debate in another thread about what is the best drive design and as Thom pointed out to me about suspension vs non-suspension designs. It all comes down to how well the complete design is implemented.
Yes, Teres is also still using a replaceable thrust plate with delrin button.
I've observed the dimple you described on all three of the Teres bearings I've used and then inspected.
Question: what prevents the wear/erosion process that turns a convex button into a concave dimple from continuing indefinitely?
Hey Doug,Dan is nice enough to admit to feeling my pain.How about you?-:)
It's Saturday night.Don't be such a "technical" stick in the mud!Have a nice cheap bottle of Beringers Chardonnay,or perhaps some Chateau St Jean Reisling.Well they're not "that" cheap,but they went well with my Tai dinner.At least my wife liked them.
Hello and thanks to everyone !!!!!
Having read all the comments I can conclude the following.
1. Both are really good tables.
2. The battery along with VHS tape drive are the ticket.
3. The bearing in the VP (might) emphasize (might) be better, but to change the
Delrin in the Galibier would not be an issue. The use of Delrin in my race car for suspension components ( measured via micrometer ) has shown abusoltely minimal wear
and in some places no wear at all. This is typically after every race and I do
know that the forces acting on the supension are greater than that of the
pulley system acting on the side of the platter and it's spindle/shaft bearing.
4. Thom has been a great person to deal with and always 100% honest.
5. I will let everyone know which table I choosen by next week.
Again thanks to everyone for their time and feedback.
PS : What is happening May 13,14 in Colorado ?
Those who can are traveling to Boulder that weekend to hear Galibier, Schroeder, Dynavector, Teres and what ever else can be squeezed in. I'm in the market for a table as well, others want to hear tonearms. Chris, of Teres, is orgainizing an open house the night of the 13th and has told us he'll have a new direct drive offering as the top-o'-the-line Teres. All who can make it are welcome. Certainly a great opportunity to meet many great people. I believe there will be reps from a couple of speaker builders as well. Should be great fun!
"This is typically after every race and I do
know that the forces acting on the supension are greater than that of the pulley system acting on the side of the platter and it's spindle/shaft bearing."
You misunderstand what we are talking about when we say 'bearing' in the context of a TT. It isn't the spindle/sleeve surface we are talking about (this bearing surface has minimal load as you point out). We are talking about the thrust bearing load, and it is VERY substantial. 40 lbs on a point ain't nothing to sneeze at. It was already pointed out that the delrin thrust bearing went from a convex surface to a concave surface in one poster's experience. You can always change out the delrin bearing, however. I personally would be concerned with an increase in bearing rumble as the thrust surface wears...but that's just me.
I won't presume to speak for Thom, or Chris, but I can't help but think that what may be at work hear is the change in bearing surface contact area as the delrin thrust plate breaks in. That is to say, we first start with an extremely small point of contact that as break-in occurs grows to an optimum surface area where further wear is greatly reduced over time. Or, perhaps there is some material in this area of the thrust plate that is meant to give way during break-in.
I forget what it's called, but I remember there was such a material on crank shaft bearings that was meant to safely wear away during normal break-in of stock motors. We used to carefully polish that off when assembling race motors.
Exactly my take on this. At some point, the forces equalize.
What really amazed me was how similar the rate of this dimple formation was - between materials so disparate as brass, stainless, and Delrin.
Limited computer access this week from Ottawa (nice town).
Thom @ Galibier
please explain the new direct drive comment:
"Chris, of Teres, is orgainizing an open house the night of the 13th and has told us he'll have a new direct drive offering as the top-o'-the-line Teres." Is it a Teres direct drive instead of belt drive?
Is the Serac Turntable available for audition also?
Thom, aren't you supposed to be studying or something? :)
Nghiep, if you go to the third page of the recent thread "Is direct drive really better?" and read the first post from Teres and then my post right after and you'll understand.
If Teres direct drive has a wooden platter then it is something really special. A direct drive turntable with 20 lbs lead loaded wooden platter is an 21st century marvelous turntable design indeed. I tried to use a 6 lbs wooden platter on a Technics SP-25 turntable and it sounded musical but lack of image and focus. It did have terrible flutter problem. The flutter also caused additional vibrations/distortions to the stylus and tonearm bearing support. It's like a tiny version of an DJ scratching the record.
A few projects along with unscheduled travel have slowed down the first Serac run.
If I were a bettng man, I'd guess on July.
I have 3 road-trips coming up in the next two months which have put a damper on riding herd over the project.
Thom @ Galibier
Nghiep, The new turntable that Dan_ed mentioned uses direct drive and has hardwood/brass/lead platter that will weigh about 56 pounds. The new motor is a lot more than just direct drive. It's a unique, non-cogging motor/controller topology that we chose to implement using direct drive. We have a rough prototype right now that has an acrylic platter. It sounds remarkably good but the wood platter is expected to raise the performance to another level.
that really sounds amazing from an engineering perspective! I hope you have display ready to explain the load bearing capability of the motor. :) That is, if we have time between enjoying great music!
I'm really looking forward to May 13!
Is this audition address?
80 Garden Center, Suite 10
Broomfield, CO 80020
Would you please provide the auditioning system components like speakers, amp, phono, ect...
You did a great deal of research and development. I really hope that some Technics/Panasonic engineer/vinyl lover see this thread and provide some insights on the R and D of the Technics SP series turntable. It looked like that the SP series turtables are the best of DD technology so far. After all, the sum of turntable components determines the sound. DD has decent speed stability but not platter bearing, nor platter, nor plinth. The Obsidian base complemented the Technics SP-10 MK II well. The enhancement of mid and high frequencies from the obsidian rock matched with the over damping of the SP-10 DD. Off course, the DD platter bearing was not as sturdy as BD because of little side loading. We all know now that platter bearing affect the soud too.
Nghiep, The address you listed is not where our demo room is. To schedule an audition please call or email. A short summary of the audition system is Schroder Reference, ZYX Universe, Artemus Labs PH-1 phono, DIY line stage, DIY 46 monoblocks, Edgarhorn Titans, DIY subwoofers. For details see: http://www.teresaudio.com/haven. The page is a little out of date but has most of the info.
The Platine Verdier is still here, the others have gone.
Not sure what you mean. The post was about Platine Verdier and Galibier, both of which are still available. What is your point?
Hmm...The thread is six years old, but crazy old Mackris lingers on.
Thom is a friend who makes a pretty good turntable. :)
Thom is a friend who makes a pretty good turntable. :)
Of course, Win makes a pretty 'darn' good turntable himself.
Yes, Thom is still around, he makes very good tables and I've been extremely happy with my Gavia/Tri-Planar combo for nearly five years now.
Is the Verdier common in USA? It is a French table, modified a few times in the last 20 years and mainly sold in Europe I think.