I owned a pair of the Logic Mk. 2 speakers which I had to sell due to a move overseas for work. During the time I had the speakers and in my entire experience with high end products I never experienced anything at this level. The people that design and make these products are extremely knowledgable about audio and are extremely passionate about their work. The build quality is like that of a Swiss watch (maybe better). I currently have a small system with Dynaudio monitors but intend to get the MKS when I return to the states.
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An example of what I'm talking about:
"What we are talking about here is over 12 carats of diamond per pair (yes, that is not a typo) which allows theoretically ideal piston movement of the cone diaphragms, woofer cones optimized through sophisticated computer analysis for lowest possible surface turbulence, over 40 lbs of pure copper foil used for the manufacture of a capacitors and inductors for crossover network (no film here), complex metal alloys machined to create the most acoustically inert cabinet, and more.
Fanatical attention was given to mechanical and magnetic isolation. There are absolutely no exposed metal parts or copper traces to make contact with air eliminating any possibility of oxidation so that the product can withstand a lifetime of use without deteriorating its performance. "
Wow! And it turns out they are within 25 miles of me - I'm making a road trip!!
The guy to talk to about Polymer Audio speakers is Jianlin1.
He owns the Polymer Audio MKS along with the Rockport Antares speakers.
Here's his system.
Was not able to attend THE show last week in Newport. I know that polymer showed with FM acoustic and Weiss. If anyone heard this room, please share your thoughts on the sound, build quality, and what it compared to, please.
No one has posted yet on the standout rooms at the show yet as well.love to hear opinions on what was good.
Listened to them at Axpona this past April. IMO, they were one of the worst sounding Room at the show. Several people commented that they were on the 10 rooms to avoid list.
I think it must have been the show conditions, or equipment combination they used. I listened to one song and was mightily disappointed.
A friend of mine owns a pair of the MKS-X's. I've heard them 6 or 7 times. For their $60,000 retail price, I can think of a million speakers I would rather own. They aren't my cup of tea at all.
That being said, the tweeter is very smooth, but the bass is muddy and undefined and also boomy and problematic in his room (his previous speakers were not). The bass issues also cloud up the midrange.
The speakers are also very tiny and vertical imaging is low. If you listen to the YouTube video above (which show the model MKS-X - the same one my friend has), you can hear some serious cabinet resonances. I am by no means a speaker designer, but IMHO, the speakers are physically small, and may have the drivers too close together.
IMHO, a speaker like the Revel Salon 2 or Magico S3/S5 bury the Polymers, are backed by large companies with lots of R&D and strong warranty and will save you $30,000 - $40,000 to boot. In the case of the Salon 2's, they also offer adjustability on the speaker to dial into almost any rooms.
As with everything, YMMV.
Tom, who are you? Based on your dramatic post, as though the speakers were so painfully bad that you experienced actual torture, it's plain to see that you are either joking or have some bizarre agenda.
-Best sound at the show by Absolute Sound at AXPONA
-Best sound and gold show award by Peter Bruninger, former Stereophile reviewer
-Most Significant product intorduction by Absolute Sound
- Most coveted product by Asbolute Sound, also at AXPONA
- "Here is a multiway that will make transparency-to-sources listeners swoon: ultra-refined, ultra-high-resolution, with very very lifelike timbre, texture, and dynamics on first-rate recordings, and a disappearing act (and soundstage) for the ages" by Jonathan Valin in his reaction to hearing them at AXPONA
- "To say that tongues were wagging about this room was a bit of an understatement." Scott Hull, Part time audiophile on AXPONA - I suppose I misunderstood, what Scott really meant I guess is that they were wagging about how it should be avoided at all cost...?
- "Hot product" by Audio Beat Magazine
- Best sound at the show (cost no object) by Robert Harley at Newport
- "Despite the gray sound that characterized most of the Hilton's ballrooms, and what may very well be their tendency to over-emphasize the midrange, the Polymers threw a wonderful, big soundstage. Myung Whun Chung's piano sounded all of one piece on his new recording for ECM New Series, which, having played this CD on multiple systems at T.H.E. Show, I consider no small achievement.", Jason Serinus, Stereophile at Newport
- rave comments in every imaginable forum and the list goes on
- the speakes have the highest resale value of any brand out there and are virtually never seen on the used market. If they are so bad and those poor folks who spent $60,000 on this product are not selling, they must really hate it right? Lets see how many Wilson's and Magico's are on Audiogon right now...
I suppose all these people above are idiots or are being secretly bribed by Polymer Audio...
Not to mention the fact that Polymer is owned by top musicians in the world and both of the shows were displayed with FM Acoustics, a very picky company that would not allow their equipment to be used with anything other than a world class speaker.
I used to own Polymer speakers and intend to buy them again when my situation permits because there is actually nothing better. It has the type of sound that produces pure magic and is a very special product. Those who have heard it in a proper set up know exactly what I mean.
To say they are not your cup of tea is one thing, but to say it was so bad you could not tolerate to be in that room is so absurd that no one can possibly take you seriously.
And Mbovaird, if this is the experience you had listening to a friends system than something is seriously wrong because the speaker actually sounds the opposite of what you describe. I encourage you to seek out a dealer with a proper set up. Although why does your friend still keep them?
And the last thing, are you serious about the YouTube video? You arejudging certain sound characteristics of these speakers by watching a YouTube video on your computer??? And even more bizarre is that the reviewer who actually filmed that video and was listening to the speakers as he was filming gave Polymer Audio best sound at the show and an award. I guess he is an idiot too and you have greater accumen judging the sound of that system through your computer speakers...
Mbovaird, I just noticed that you are selling your Wilson Alexia speakers. So lets see, you own the speaker that supposedly crushes the Polymer yet you are trying to get rid of it and your unfortunate friend is holding on to his Polymer's? Seems you are the one who is unhappy with his purchase, not your friend. Hmm...
I had a similar bad experience with Polymer during the show last weekend. I really don't think the x-over is right. There was haze in between mids/woofs. Not sure what RH was smoking, but that didn't sound one iota like real music. I went and heard them on two days as a matter of fact. And obviously, it wasn't a front end problem. In fact, some of the tonality was quite nice.
I know someone who recently purchased a pair of MKS-X. I've only listened to them once, after they were broken in and can tell you I wouldn't pay 6K for them. His electronics are pretty good, but as someone else said, the bass was a mess. There was no illusion of presence. They were not at all engaging. This is just my opinion from one listen, but I would seriously caution anyone to listen extensively in a controlled environment and compare to some other, more established brands, both cabinet & dipole, and go for what get's you foot going & puts a smile on your face.
Based on the response above, I would venture to guess that Dweinstein is Daniel Khesin, the owner of Polymer. Dweinstein/Daniel, whatever your name is, you need to realize that not everyone will love the Polymer speakers. Some may, and that's great. It's the same reason not everyone loves Strawberry ice cream. But I can tell you that I know at least a dozen people who have heard them and are not fans - at all. For $60,000 you get off the shelf drivers in a cabinet that is not only small, but looks like a High School shop project gone wrong. In addition, we measured the speakers in our friends room and the results were abysmal. If I could attach a file here, I would upload the in-room measurements.
As I said in my original post, the Polymer Audio speakers are not for me (or anyone I know - except for the guy who bought them.....and even he is not overly thrilled with some of the bass issues he's having.)
I can think of a lot of other speakers for a fraction of the price of the Polymer's that I would rather own that would mop the floor with the Polymers: Revel Salon 2, Magico S3/S5, Harbeth, Vivid G3 and the list goes on and on.
Definitely not a fan. For $60K - I expect a LOT more. I would put the value on them at $5-10K tops.
Some shocking comments about what may very well be the best loudspeaker ever made. I heard this system at Newport on the last day of the show and I was totally blown away. It was the best imaging and 3dimesnionality I ever experienced. It was actually the first system that I had ever heard where you can actually forget that you are listening to a system and it just draws you in deeper and deeper into the recorded event. I kept coming back to that room after visiting others and each time I went back there was this sense that I was not listening to electronics.
And everyone in the packed room agreed and I heard many remarks from other show goers how it was by far the best sound. How can people disagree so much about the same thing is certainly very strange.
I was told by the rep in the room that they had a major screw-up because the shipping company delivered the speakers late and so the system was only assembled long after the show started and the speakers were apparently brand new and never used. So perhaps only on the last day they were able to fully dial in the system. But you owe it yourself to audition these speakers under proper conditions, it is a total revelation and will challenge what you think is possible.
I signed on to Audiogon just to post this, as this is really amusing. I too heard this system both in Axpona and again at Newport. Let's assume that Robert Harley was smoking something. Then another gentleman from Absolute Sound who appeared to be totally sober just posted this:
"FM Acoustics, Polymer, Weiss
The best sound of all the point sourcesand possibly the best sound of the showdeservingly goes to the $130k FM Acoustics 115 monoblock amplifiers paired with the new Polymer MKS-X loudspeakers ($60k/pr.). These monoblocks fed the 4-ohm MKS-Xs with 500W of power, and will continue driving down to 1 ohm (and below, according to FM). The Polymers require some serious damping to control their woofers, and the FM 115s handled their hunger with aplomb and gusto, ready to deliver more when necessary. A Weiss Man 301 Music Server ($9500) and Weiss Jason Transport ($24k) were fed into a Thrax Maximinus DAC ($33k) and controlled by the FM Acoustics 245 preamp ($25.5k), all of which sat atop the amazing Krolo Design rack ($6400) and were connected by Enklein David and T-Rex cables. The very large room definitely allowed the Polymers to stretch out, as the soundstage was the deepest, most accurate presentation of the show. It was so deep, in fact, that I wished the Polymers could have been even farther apart to allow the soundstage width to match its depth. The deep, rectangular listening-position setup was the cause of this deeper-than-wider sensation. The FM 115s drove the MKS-Xs with such ease, though, that the normally difficult reproduction of my favorite reference music, Ludovico Einaudis In a Time Lapse, was a breeze for these incredible monoblocks."
I can't say I disagree since I already ordered a pair of the MKS-X and waiting for delivery.
@Dweinstein, ~ I have been in this hobby for over 40 years. I attend trade-
shows, music concerts and Live Jazz, Rock, and Acoustic shows. Not that I
need to justify my opinions or credentials to a stranger.
I have owned speakers from KEF, Dynaudio, Sonus Faber, Evolution
Acoustics, TAD, Reference 3A and Vienna Acoustics. Electronics from
Audio Research, Edge, Naim, Simaudio, Jeff Rowland, Innersound, CODA,
McCormack and Tom Evans. I know what I like and I don't suffer fools.
You are welcome to your own opinions and impressions. Give the Polymer
a listen on your own. I have heard it twice. ...you may find that it is
"not your cup of tea" either. Not every hype job turns out to be
true. Reviewers are not known for being impartial and IMO are just
audiophiles who get paid to write down their opinions. No more valid than
mine or yours. They have huge conflicts of interest and like everything they
hear or at the least have blinders on.(I am not affiliated with any brand
mentioned above). No axe to grind. BTW, many rooms with multi-thousand
dollar set-ups sounded like crap at every show I have been to. (20% +|- get
P.s. You certainly went to a lot of work to criticize my post. I believe it is you
that has an agenda! I just answered the guys question. My prerogative!
Thanks for the beat down, sorry you got your panties in a twist!
"Who are u?" LOL:>) arrogant, classless, twit.
Another reviewer from Absolute Sound:
FM Acoustics, Polymer, Weiss
The best sound of all the point sourcesand possibly the best sound of the showdeservingly goes to the $130k FM Acoustics 115 monoblock amplifiers paired with the new Polymer MKS-X loudspeakers ($60k/pr.). These monoblocks fed the 4-ohm MKS-Xs with 500W of power, and will continue driving down to 1 ohm (and below, according to FM). The Polymers require some serious damping to control their woofers, and the FM 115s handled their hunger with aplomb and gusto, ready to deliver more when necessary. A Weiss Man 301 Music Server ($9500) and Weiss Jason Transport ($24k) were fed into a Thrax Maximinus DAC ($33k) and controlled by the FM Acoustics 245 preamp ($25.5k), all of which sat atop the amazing Krolo Design rack ($6400) and were connected by Enklein David and T-Rex cables. The very large room definitely allowed the Polymers to stretch out, as the soundstage was the deepest, most accurate presentation of the show. It was so deep, in fact, that I wished the Polymers could have been even farther apart to allow the soundstage width to match its depth. The deep, rectangular listening-position setup was the cause of this deeper-than-wider sensation. The FM 115s drove the MKS-Xs with such ease, though, that the normally difficult reproduction of my favorite reference music, Ludovico Einaudis In a Time Lapse, was a breeze for these incredible monoblocks.
Sure, we don't have to listen to reviewers. Their coverage is only meant to interest someone in hearing it. No one would buy a $60k product without an audition. My only point is that it was a unanimous reaction that this is the best speaker, not just Robert Harley. Tom of course you are entitled to your opinion, we all have one, but when you say the room was on the top ten stay away from list you completely discredit yourself. Just as I would discredit myself if my opinion was that the Bose Wave Radio sounds better than your beloved Sonus Faber or KEF speakers. You couldn't argue with me because my opinion is perfectly reasonable because that is what I like, but I think most people wouldn't be interested in my audio advice after revealing such an opinion.
Keith, Soundstage never reviewed the MKS-X speakers that were shown at Newport and AXPONA. They didn't even exist yet when soundstage did their review.
Mbovaird, basically what you don't realize is that you are just embarrassing yourself. When every industry critic hails it as the best sound at every show so far and these are people who actively hear the best equipment in the world, it makes you look a fool with some kind of emotional problems to say things like "a $5,000 speaker will mop the floor with the Polymers".
It's true that not everyone will like the same products and some of those products are not my cup of tea either. Like some people go crazy for Halcro amplifiers but they are just not for me. I respect their engineering but its just something I would use for my system. At the same time I also won't take time out of my day to actively go on forums and trash the brand as much as possible with overly dramatic comments. I just don't have any kind of need to stand on a mountain top and scream at the world that Halcro sucks.
The intensity and your overly dramatic comments that are obviously emotionally charged dont seem believable to anyone. And I am sure that some of the negative comments are also from competitors who feel threatened by Polymer Audio. Some of the biggest brands realize that they can't compete. I can also start posting comments all over the Internet that the Bose Satelite system wipes the floor with Wilson Alexia's. That's because the Bose module is so much smaller it will produce better imaging than the boxy Alexia speaker. And that surely Bose has betters engineers and infinitely greater resources than Wilson Audio for R&D. My comments might even seem plausible, although of course I will just be making a fool of myself as you are right now.
Do you think the entire press is being bribed by Polymer Audio for consistently hailing it as the best speaker? Notice that most of the publication that gave Polymer Audio best sound at show and awards do not even have Polymer Audio as advertiser. And FM Acoustics has never advertised in the USA and clearly the reviewers who gush over it are actually being sincere.
I simply responded to your post because of just how silly it is and the people who know this product would just think of you as a fool. Because it is not just about subjective nature of sound, but the simply fact that Polymer has a diamond midrange and none of the other speakers do. Who can argue that the paper cone midrange (or whatever they use) on your Wilson Alexia (which you are obviously selling) is superior to a diamond midrange? To call the Polymer Speaker a "high school project" also shows that you are angry about something and can't handle your emotions. Because the Polymer cabinet is the most intricately designed cabinet ever made and anyone who is familiar with CNC machining understands the kind of challenge it is and it would be simply impossible to pursue by the vast majority of audio companies.
I actually have nothing to prove here as the best ears in the world have already spoken.
And by the way, who is your friend? And you didn't answer why he is still keeping the speakers even though they they are worse than a million other speakers, especially after spending the kind of money he spent?
How many advertising dollars does Polymer spend with The Absolute Sound?
Plus, a few of these responders gushing over the speakers seem more than a little suspicious to me. Check their join date (when this thread started), their other posts (glowing about Polymer in threads like "best speakers you've ever heard") and no buying/selling feedback.
If something looks like a skunk and smells like a skunk....
At the end of the day, listen for yourself and decide. For me, not a chance I would ever buy these speakers.
Dweinstein - can we keep things in perspective here? You are quoting SHOW REPORTS! The only thing worse than a review, is a show report! The guy comes in, listens for a few minutes or 30 minutes and leaves! There is no comparison to his reference system. There is little chance to delve into the depths of his musical collection. There is no familiarity with the room. It's a show! Not a review.
That being said, is it any wonder that Polymer got a good show report from the magazine they spend tens of thousands of dollars with (TAS) and a not so good report (the more honest one IMO) from the magazine they don't advertise with? Let's see what did Stereophile say? They said, "After noting (without tipping my hand) that the bass response on an otherwise extremely beautiful depiction of Lorraine Hunt Lieberson's voice was exaggerated, with lower pitched instruments unnaturally dominating those higher up, I asked Daniel if he was happy with the sound he was getting in the room. After some hesitation, he carefully stated, 'Perhaps the bass calls more attention to itself than we'd like.'" Finally! Some admission of truth!
Let's keep things in perspective. Show reports are not reviews - and that goes for good ones and bad ones. Like I've said from the beginning, I've heard the MKS-X in a home environment 6 or 7 times now, broken in, with good gear and cables. They just don't do it for me. I simply expect more for $60,000....quite frankly, a lot more. To me, the Magico S3 is a speaker I would choose to parallel to the Polymers both in design philosophy and style of sound. And given that the S3 is roughly 1/3 the price of the Polymers, it's quite simply, no contest. The person above who mentioned a price point of $6,000 isn't far off in my opinion either. You can purchase a pair of Revel Studio 2's on the used market for about $8,000 and with it's adjustability, quality of drivers and super smooth tweeter, it is simply, IMO, a much better speaker than the dramatically overpriced Polymer MKS-X's.
If the Polymer could get their price point down under $20,000 for a speaker, fix the darn bass issues that seem to plaque all their speakers (read Doug Schneiders review of the original MKS and you can see that bass was a issue for him as well) and make a speaker that looks like a serious player (and not the midget the MKS-X is), a better looking cabinet without all the rivet holes and color options (is industrial gray the only color?) then they might have something.
And one more thing.....how about something like bass adjustability on the speaker too? Help to dial it in to most rooms. Because at the end of the day - it's how the speaker sounds in the room that is most important - not what exotic materials it uses. Just saying....
As with everything YMMV.
Ok Mbovaird. What are you trying to prove? That you won't ever buy Polymer speakers and that there is some kind of conspiracy theory that causes unfortunate victims to become buyers of this product? What's your point? Absolute Sound just rated the Polymer MKS-X as a tie with the MBL X-Treme which is a $275,000/pr speaker system. Ok fine, Absolute Sound are a bunch of idiots and you are the one (who ever you are) with the golden ears. I get it.
Alright perhaps all the reviewers including Jonathan Valin and Robert Harley are being bribed by Polymer Audio. But what about the best sound at the show and gold show award issued by AV Showrooms? Have you ever seen a Polymer ad there? The list goes on.
I personally know dealers and experienced listeners who think that the MKS-X is superior to the Magico Q7 in many ways. You think the S3 is way better. They are entitled to their opinion too.
Let's make a deal. How about you get your Magico S3 and listen to that and I'll get my Polymer and we will call it a day. I'll be the victim and you can emerge victoriois. You'll be the hero who saved the day and I'll endlessly suffer. You don't have to be angry anymore. You go get em' tiger!
It seems reviewers are also part of the topic, so let me delve into this taboo as well. Have you ever seen the pictures of the rooms the reviews have? Most are absolute crap! Their "reference" is not a reference level room. They may get an excellent sound out of some system, but the room is probably the single biggest, most ignored part of THE SYSTEM. Nailing a few fiberglass panels does not in any way make a reference level room.
I have no idea how much time any of the reviewers spend listening to live music, venues, etc (and don't really care). Some speakers are by their very nature more room friendly (generally dipole, electrostatic & panel won't excite base modes as much), but the room remains huge.
As per speakers, price is no guarantee of quality. For instance, to my ear I much prefer the Sonus Faber Stradivari to the Sonus Faber Aida. I've heard both in more than one friends home, and at a dealer I've known for years who had both on display. That is MY TASTE. There really is nothing to argue about. When an individual asks a valid question - on opinion based on listening to THE ACTUAL SPEAKER IN QUESTION why the hostility for honest opinions? That is a valid question. We get together for shootouts from time to time. We don't always agree on everything - generally we do, but there are exceptions.
At the end of the day, when spending significant $$$, let the buyer beware. Particularly with the snakes in this industry! Audition Audition Audition. Then and only then can one make a sound decision based on their taste and requirements. Lets see, say 50k for speakers - is it worth a .5k airplane ticket???
Well said Drb968. I used to buy expensive products just because I read some rave in the magazines and got burned several times. And then I realized that my taste can vary significantly from that of a particular reviewer. You have to be crazy to buy a heavy and very expensive speaker without a careful audition.