Any advice on buying quality vinyl

Hi

I apologize in advance for my long-winded post, but I am passionate about vinyl.

I have been collecting and playing vinyl for 40 years. I am also an entry-level audiophile with greater aspirations than my current budget, but I have had some very good sounding systems.

To put my vinyl experience in context I will offer this: I have run an online vinyl site buying and selling quality vinyl records for 22 years. I always carefully clean and play-grade my vinyl before selling. I also make note of things that are important to collectors and audiophiles like the deadwax, or matrix, information and jacket notes. Better Records is a frequent customer of mine, although I do not know if any of my records end up as “White Hot Stampers”. I can say the following with confidence. First, although I have not bought any records from BR, from what I have read, most customers are very satisfied. Tom does a good job of comparing copies and looking for copies with the best sonics- and they do exist, but they are not all that elusive. I don’t think it’s that difficult to find copies with outstanding sonics.

But my caveat is that if you are hunting for quality sonics, the matrix is only the start. I support this by saying that I play and list, maybe, 50-100 records a week. I also love hunting for records. While the information in the matrix is important, it is not always the best indicator of good sonics. Of course, the condition is key. But there are potential condition problems that cannot be seen by just inspecting and visually grading a record alone, I believe that the error with ebay is that most sellers will not take the time to play a record while they are listing it. The lack of a sonic evaluation and the subjectivity of grading standards is what has led to a lot of bad juju with eBay.

Play-grading thousands of records has sensitized me to groove wear. In spite of what some sellers claim, you cannot see groove wear, unless you have at least a 1000x scope. Yes, you can see things like “Cue Burn”. But groove wear can be caused by several factors and it cannot be found unless you play a record with a good system, have good listening skills and play your records with a stylus that gets down to where groove wear exists or does not. I have had many records that looked great but sounded horrible because the groove topography was just worn out.

Another factor that contributes to good sonics is the pressing order. I am not talking about pressing release or first pressing as many sellers describe it. I am talking about whether the record was pressed when the stamper was fresh, or near the end of its useful life. There is no way to know this, and only playing a record, and having some listening experience with multiple copies of the same, can you have some base of comparison. That said, I put a lot of importance on “promo” copies. Not the gold-stamped one’s from the 80’s and 90’s, but the real white label, radio station, promo copies. These are usually sonic treasures because they were almost assuredly pressed early when the stampers are fresh.

With the above in mind, I will offer that first pressings and ED1 (original releases), in spite of what most sellers want you to believe, and causal collectors believe to be true, they are not always the best sounding pressings. Neither are thicker records (160 grams and above). Some of the ultra-skinny RCA Dynaflex records do sound great. Some records with later stamper designations, and (re) cut releases also sound better than earlier audio masters and stampings.

With the above in mind, there are some rules of thumb I work with when hunting for records with better sonics:

I look for the recording engineer, mastering engineer and/or audio mastering studio in the deadwax. You can find lots of discussion in the Steve Hoffman Music Forums on this. Certainly, jazz fans will recognize gems that have Rudy Van Gelder (“RVG”) in the deadwax. Records that have Robert “Bob” Ludwig “R.L.” scribed in the deadwax are good indicators of sonic quality. Rock records mastered by George Peckham (“Pecko”), George Piros (“GP”) and Allen Zentz are also good indicators. Records with the Mastering Studio such as; “STERLING” and “MASTERDISK” scribed in the deadwax are also good indicators. Pressing plants also show up in the deadwax. If you know how to decode that information. There is a belief that certain plants made better copies. I cannot prove, or disprove this….yet.

I have also found that records indicating a direct metal mastering (“DMM”), direct to disc (D2D), half-speed, and some 45 rpm EP releases to have superior sonics compared to regular pressings.

Running noise is a big problem for me, especially the older RCA records. I have listened to hundreds of otherwise clean (NM), but noisy, early stereo, and early Living Stereo copies. I have also opened and listened to many RCA sealed records from the late 1950’s through the mid 1960’s. I am convinced, after opening and playing these sealed records, that the plasticizer that RCA used in their vinyl compound did not age well and became brittle over time contributing to a heightened noise floor. I compare these early RCA pressings to the same age DGG, and some later DG classical record pressings and the DGG/DG records usually play black quiet.I am very hesitant to buy the high-priced, early, Living Stereo copies.

Finally, obsession counts. Most audiophiles know this. Carefully clean your records (another rabbit hole). Keep your cartridge and tonearm tweaked. Keep your stylus immaculately clean (after every record) to get the best sound that survives in the grooves.

@playpen: "RCA living stereo’s are the most difficult records to clean. It took my years to figure how to get rid of their noise,it takes time and many cleanings and playings but worth it"

Yes and...I have spent years experimenting with cleaning methods and chemistry. The current manual approach I use is as good as, if not better, than most machines including ultrasonic units. I have done the comparisons.

Deep cleaning RCA’s does help some but there is a perceptible noise floor on most I have listened to, even sealed records (I have grudgingly opened). There have been some exceptions of course, but I attribute those that play very quietly to ideal storage conditions. For most RCA’s, under average conditions, they don’t age as well as equally old records from other premium labels from DECCA and Deutsche Grammophon Gesellshaft.

Maybe we should compare notes sometime on cleaning records?. 

This is hijacking the thread, sorry....

I will assume RCA was aware of the noise floor in their late 50's and 60's pressings because they tried to fix the problem with their Dynaflex pressings in 1969. 

A quote from a site: "Opinions from record collectors and audiophiles are divided as to Dynaflex's sound quality. Some felt that the sound quality actually improved, due to better processes for removing impurities in the vinyl compounds" 

Whether you like the thinner (floppier) pressings and ignoring whether it was a smoke screen to sell less expensive (to make) LP's, RCA claimed a new "miracle surface" that played quieter. Actually, the problem was either impurities in the vinyl (not virgin vinyl) or the plasticizers that were not doing their job. 
 

@edgwear,

I was only saying that most of the early DGG and some later DG pressings play black quiet.

As far as the sonics, yes, I find that the some of the early DGG red stereo pressings have a very natural tonality, good soundstage and great transients- as good as the best DECCA ffss blue backs and Speaker Corner issues I have listened to. My Asian audiophile buyers seem to feel that way as well. That said, not all DECCA labels are high-quality, you know that.

I don’t like the RCA Dynagroove pressings myself. The later Dynaflex (floppies) are too thin for me as they seem to allow rumble to interfere with the reproduction. But the sonics on some are excellent.

The quote I shared was from an RCA history site I archived. If it is accurate, then I can only assume that RCA engineers were aware of a running noise problem.

My experience with early RCA Living Stereo records is different than yours. I do hear audible running noise on most. Even the sealed Indianapolis copies my curiosity has compelled me to open and sample. I can’t argue it- it’s just there on most I play. In general, I find early German pressings and later Japanese pressings to play black quiet. The vinyl on mint copies of these also looks different to my eyes- they look like a sheet of black glass. The early RCA vinyl looks brittle and is prone to be slightly cloudy looking.

My listening experience may differ from a lot of collectors and audiophiles. I only offer it. 

Cleaning is very, very important. I have had similar experiences with older records and have a dedicated turntable just to dredge out the stuff in the grooves that was loosened, but not removed, with cleaning. Sometimes I have to clean my stylus 2-3 times while playing after cleaning. The work invested makes it worth it for some treasured LP's.

I am by no means an expert on recording and mastering and the changes in the industry from the late 50's through the 1970's. Some of my audiophile friends here in Connecticut seem to be. They say that a lot of the recordings made in the late 50's/early 60's are spectacular precisely because their was less technology involved. The miking was simple (not a "forest of mics"), recordings were two-track and on tube-driven equipment. The dynamics of the original were preserved because there was little, or no, compression used, especially with the DECCA and other UK labels. Steve Hoffman claims there is a “breathe of life” in these simpler, early pressings. My listening to these seems to confirm this. Some early DECCA stereo pressings are startling in their realism.

On the DGG red stereo "Alle H" pressings from the late 50's and early 60's and their sonics, I will just maintain that my experience differs from others. I have found some to be world-class...... and black quiet. Some of the DG pressings are excellent as you noted.

The general opinion I have read is that Dynagroove (tech) destroyed the sonics for those with high-end systems, but improved the sonics for those with low-end or mid-fi systems. I am always running into advice that says if you're playing a Dynagroove record with an elliptical stylus (which came into popular use shortly after the introduction of Dynagroove) that you should switch out the cartridge and use one with a conical stylus with a .7 mil spherical tip to get a better audio experience from them.

I will add that cleaning older records is very difficult because of several factors, including the fact that, according to a paper I read published by SHURE, the stylus running at 33-1/3 rpm’s contacts two microscopically small points on the groove walls. The pressure on these points of contact is approx. 26 tons per square inch. The implications of this are obvious for stylus wear. However, I believe (no proof yet) this same pressure, and the heat of friction on the groove walls, also momentarily softens the vinyl and causes debris to stick to the groove walls. Normal cleaning methods have a tough time removing that debris.

Also, this same article talks about the effect on the stylus causing wear "flats" that act like chisels that fracture the vinyl wall. The wave crests created by this condition also contributes to a worsening of the reproduction, but my opinion is that the tiny shattered vinyl bits get stuck in the bottom of the grooves where they are very difficult to remove with micro-fiber pads. Perhaps this is why playing a record shortly after cleaning dredges out the stubborn stuff. I used a very fine-tipped, and inexpensive, conical stylus for my "play-cleaning".

The paper was originally published in 1954 when cartridges ran at higher weights and styli were not as good as we now enjoy but, many older records could be very hard to clean because of the playing that they saw early in their life.

Too much information perhaps, but I find this stuff very interesting....

I have found in discussions that there is a need for clarifying terms.

I use "original pressings" to describe ED1 or original releases.

I use "first stampers" to describe the first stamper sets in a run. Later releases and recuts can also have first stampers. Also, I think first pressings of Columbia and RCA releases don’t always use "1A" in the deadwax.

As I said earlier, for me, pressing order has the biggest effect on the sonics, besides condition, and there’s no way to know the pressing order except if you look for white label promos with the right matrix numbers. In general. WL promos are worth the hunt because the sonics seem to be better.

@edgewear, 

I applaud your cleaning procedures. I have never tried Vinylzyme. Residual organic (mold) could be the source of the running noise I am hearing on older RCA records. I have been trying to mechanically agitate all the crud out with various materials and procedures. I have kept everything manual but have tried ultrasonic machines and I don't think they are worth the money for the result- even though the science is very compelling. I have avoided using targeted chemistry as an aid because I wanted to keep the cleaning fluid I use very simple: Dawn and distilled water. No alcohol. No wetting agents. Maybe its time to experiment. Thanks.  

@playpen, 
I like your tenacity. I think the reason the cleaned records may have sounded horrible after cleaning was that the embedded debris had its bond broken by the detergents and maybe the change in the electrical charge- enough to be dredged out by your stylus. I have found the same to be true which is why I mentioned earlier that I actually use a turntable to "play-clean" as part of my method. 

My apologees to the OP for hijacking this thread.  

@edgewear,

Nice experiment. To be very candid, I am at the edge of my competency now. Of the three choices. I have heard that back in those days, 2nd gen copies, used for mastering, would be flown to other pressing sites so that rules out tape source? I would guess that better mastering, which includes both the equipment and the person behind the console and running the lathe. As far as I can tell from cruising Steve Hoffman's forums, he talks about a "breathe of life" (tonality) in the early shaded dog Living Stereos. I can't seem to find, in these same forums, a strong reason for that difference. 

As good as the sonics are, I still struggle to get one's that run quietly. I guess it's just the lot I run into, rather than the quality of the vinyl or the poor aging of the vinyl. 

I still struggle to understand why recently opened, 60-year-old copies that show no signs of moisture damage, mold, or excessive heat would play with a low-level running noise. It's not my system. I play other LP's all the time that run CD quiet.

Maybe I need to find a stylus that rides higher in the groove....

Interestingly, to me anyway, I read somewhere that some labels including RCA are no longer flying or shipping original master tapes overseas- they are just too valuable. So either the lacquers have to be cut stateside or they are sending digital masters. The latter is what I heard was being done. That might also explain any difference people are hearing in newer audiophile (re) releases?