Teary
IT would be helpful if you specified which dacs you were referring to....
I think you need to understand that there is a difference between a professional reviewer and just a forum member like you and me. A professional reviewer needs to be extremely careful when making statements that he liked the AM DAC more than a $25,000 DAC (let's call it DAC X). People have different tastes for everything. Take wine for example. I may like one type of wine best, and you may like something completely different. That does not mean that my wine is better than yours or yours is better than mine. Same thing with DACs. Terry liked the AM DAC much more than anything else he has tried. And he said he has tried many. This is how his review started. Read the first two sentences. The second sentence says: "They ranged in price from $1,200 up to $25,000, and came from such luminaries as Playback Design, Ensemble, Accustic Arts, Eximus, Esoteric, dCS, PS Audio, MSB, Lab 12, and Mhdt Labs, to mention a few." I like the AM much more than many other DACs too. But that does not mean it is a DAC for everyone's taste. There will be people who would not like the AM DAC, and that is fine. But think about this - if Terry writes more specifically and says that he compared the $25,000 DAC X with the $2,500 AM DAC, and the AM was much better... well, who is going to buy or even consider DAC X for $25K? That would be an unnecessary reputation damage for DAC X. And just like my wine and your wine, DAC X might be (and probably is) perfect for someone else. Unlike people like me and you, Terry and other reviewers have to be careful what they are saying. There is a reason they compare products from the same class and not with devices ten times the price of the product they review. But Terry was nice enough to send a message out there. And we need to read between the lines. What I read between the lines is that Terry found the AM DAC to be very special, he liked it a lot, and for the relatively inexpensive price in today's hifi market it should be something that people consider auditioning. Ultimately, it is all about synergy and personal taste, and the only way to know if it is for you or not is to put one in your system and try it for yourself. But be careful, because it is addictive :). |
Has anyone compared the different inputs on the AM? USB vs AES or Coax? I have compared USB vs. I2S. It scales with the source. The better source always wins. I've had the I2S sounding better than the USB. And I've had the USB sounding better than the I2S. But that's with sources that are much more expensive than the Audio Mirror DAC. It's interesting that because of its price, the Audio Mirror DAC is not considered as some of the high end class DACs. And as such, it has a different target. Most people who get the Audio Mirror DAC would not buy a streamer like the Innuos Statement, or PinkFaun 2.16x, or Grimm Audio MU1, or Taiko Extreme. And the people who have spent that much on a streamer would never even for a second consider using an AM DAC. Typically at those people's systems, even the cheapest cable is more expensive than the Audio Mirror DAC. This is somewhat sad, because you have no idea what the AM DAC is capable of until you connect a really really good source. It scales really well even with the best sources out there. People here are so obsessed about DAC comparisons. And especially the Orchid fans are all over this thread for some reason, besides the multiple other Orchid threads out there. It reminds me of the massive attacks and total defenses of some of our popular US news channels. But that's not the point. I have compared quite a few pretty well designed DACs in my system. And with all of them the difference that an improved source provided was more significant that the difference between the DACs. And I am talking about radically different DACs - let's say the AM DAC vs. Terminator - two quite different DAC designs and implementations. There is a difference between using CD players and streamers. CD players typically use the SPDIF / AES/EBU interface. And a good CD player with SPDIF sounds a lot better than many low-end and mid-fi streamers (which is what I guess a lot of the AM users use). If you have settled on a CD player and digital cable, and you are not into streaming, then it makes sense to try different DACs and fine tune it by discovering what sounds best in your system. There is no "best" for everyone, only what works "best" for you in your system. Every chip used to process digital signal has its own sound signature. When it comes to SPDIF, both DACs (Audio Mirror and the Orchid) use the same CS8416 chip to process the digital signal. They would have a similar sound signature in that regard. But then they use different DAC chips. One is using the AD1865N and the other is using the TDA1541A chip. Both of these chips have their own sound signature. And then they have a slightly different power supply section and different analog sections. Different tubes would make those DACs sound different. The coupling caps have their own sound signature. The Mundorf caps @grannyring is installing in the power supply will also change the sound. Fuses, cables, resistors... everything has an influence on the sound. Even the vibration treatment. I hope you get it - it's an endless comparisons game. Vlad is working non-stop on improving his DAC. By the time you are done with this test, there will be better upgrades by AM. In fact there are already some new things he came up with. But going back to sources and inputs. If you using a CD player, and you are an owner of a top CD transport, I almost envy you. For those streaming digital music, it takes a lot of effort to make a digital streamer sound better than a top class CD player. But once you get to that point, you are at another level. Adding a really good streamer (read: a lot more expensive than the AM DAC) is a game changer. At that point, and only at that point the USB and the I2S inputs on the AM DAC sound a lot better than SPDIF / AES/EBU. A LOT BETTER! I mean, all of these changes of tubes, cables, fuses, caps, resistors, and so on combined together are not even close to the difference a world class streamer would make with this DAC. This was a pretty long answer trying to explain that at that level and beyond the source makes a bigger difference than the DAC. But also, it's not easy to compare two inputs with an identical source. Here is why - the better sources, even if they have multiple outputs, use different chips for each output type. At that point, since every chip has its own sound signature, you don't know if you are comparing the DAC inputs or the source outputs. But I was able to do one input comparison that might be worth mentioning. There are some sources that use the same chip for more than one output type - for example, the PinkFaun streamers have a PCIe card using the CMedia CM8888 chip which has a SPDIF and I2S output. This was probably the highest end SPDIF and I2S source I've had in my system. They were also clocked with the PinkFaun €1250 Ultra OCXO clock. And I did compare the SPDIF and the the I2S inputs on the Audio Mirror DAC with that PinkFaun source. There was however one gotcha. One used a SPDIF cable, and the other used a HDMI cable. So, again - have I heard the difference between inputs or a difference between cables?!? Probably both... Which one did I like more? Definitely the I2S. BTW, I was a big fan of 44.1kHz digital files and did not necessarily like high resolution files. With that PinkFaun source (I2S output) and the Audio Mirror DAC I heard for the first time hires digital recordings that sounded significantly better than 44.1kHz. |
I was a proud owner of a Denafrips Terminator DAC, which was significantly better than any other DAC I’ve had in my system before.
A friend of mine who has an entire Audio Mirror system including their big horn speakers showed up at my door with this brand new Audio Mirror DAC. It was not even burned in properly after only playing a few hours. I was absolutely sure that the big Terminator was in another league and there was no room for comparison. Well, it turned out I was not exactly right. They sounded different. What I really liked about the Audio Mirror was how it reproduced vocals and bass. Vocals was so smooth and real and the bass had a lot more details compared to the Terminator. Simply the Audio Mirror was more musical than the Terminator.
I realized how good the Analogue Devices AD1865NK chip was and went on a mission to find the best AD1865 DAC I can afford. I am currently building an Audio Note Kits 5.1 DAC. Once I get all the parts and complete the build it would be compared again to the Audio Mirror and can report back. If you see the ANK here sale you would know why :). One of these two DACs would go in the empty slot where the Terminator once was. |
I saw that thread became active again, so let me post an update. I built the Audio Note Kits DAC 5.1. I went nuts and put Duelund tinned copper caps, Vishay Z-foil resistors, expensive silver wire, silver WBT connectors, etc. etc. The list goes on. I am very happy with the result. No regrets that I sold my Terminator DAC. The sound now is more dynamic, more analog, musical, better refined. The bass on the Terminator was always muddy, and now it is very well defined. I guess it is a matter of personal preference. If crystal clear details is the most important thing for you, the Terminator may very well be a better choice. If you want to experience music and like to feel that the musicians are playing in your room, give the ANK 5.1, the new Audio Mirror DAC, or another well design AD1865 DAC a try. After I gave the ANK 5.1 enough break-in time, I took my friend’s Audio Mirror DAC at home again and did a lot of A/B testing for over a week. Surprisingly (or not) they sounded so close that it was hard to believe I spent four times more money for my DAC. There were songs I could not pass an A/B test, and there were songs I could. I liked my ANK DAC better, but I still wonder if I tweaked the Audio Mirror DAC with better coupling caps, resistors, wire, connectors, etc. The difference between the two DACs was much smaller than the difference between the streamers in my system. Actually adding or removing the fiber media convertors in my network probably made a bigger difference than the A/B between these two DACs. I think the difference in sound comes down to the different tubes these DACs use, the different coupling capacitors, and a couple minor things in their design - the ANK DAC has more sophisticated power supply, while the AM DAC may have a little better digital section, or at least that’s what I think the differences come from. A person on another forum with a Terminator DAC contacted me and after chatting for a while, he ordered a custom Audio Mirror DAC with some upgrades I recommended (Duelund caps, Z-foils, and pretty much all the tweaks I made to my ANK DAC). Last I heard he sold his Terminator and was super happy with the AM DAC. I am considering selling my ANK DAC and buying an Innuos server and an Audio Mirror DAC that I can tweak with my favorite sounding parts. I think I would have better sound, because the source makes a big difference with these DACs. But it’s hard to replace the almost 40 lbs ANK box that is nearly the size of my PS Audio P20 Power Regenerator with the tiny little AM device that weights and costs a fraction of the ANK. It does not feel right :). Although I already know it "sounds" right :). Hope that helps. I highly recommend both of these DACs. Audition whichever fits your budget if you can. P.S. My friend also had an older model Audio Mirror DAC. I was never impressed by it, and I would not recommend it. |
Has anyone done a comparison of the Audio Mirror Tubadour III DAC to the new Holo Springs 2 Dac.(Level 2 or 3). I am interested in purchasing one of them soon,
thanks I have not done exactly that comparison, but I did consider the Holo Springs 2 Dac at some point and ended up buying a Denafrips Terminator at the end. All the reviews I read made the Terminator a winner between those two. Here is one: https://www.audiostream.com/content/review-denafrips-terminator-dac"Compared to the Terminator, the Spring sounded vague, grayish, and slightly mushy. Though it hurts me to admit it, the differences weren’t subtle." After owning a Denafrips Terminator for several months, I heard the Audio Mirror and ended up selling the Terminator. You can read more about it in the post above. If I was to pick between the Holo and AM, I know what it would be. But that's me and my system. What works well in my system ans satisfy my music taste may not work that well for you. But if you have a chance, give the new AM DAC a try. I highly recommend it. |
Thanks vassils...will do....any other upgrades/besides the Caps and power supply
If you really want to tweak it to the max, I would change all signal path resistors to Vishay Z-Foil. And going into the world of diminishing returns, controversial topics, and things that may not be audible in every system, but I did on my ANK DAC... I would replace the IEC inlet, RCA connectors, and the stock fuse. I think the Audio Mirror DAC had one of those combined IEC / fuse inlets. Furutech FI-03 (R) would be a good replacement. The SR Blue fuse worked well in my system. I would put ETI Silver Phono Pods or WBT-0210 Ag NextGen RCAs. WBT are cheaper from European distributors. Also, I read you got an XLR output. Is that what you use? If you have unbalanced inputs on your line stage, try them out. |
@audio123
I would highly recommend the Duelund CAST tinned copper capacitors on this DAC. |
You are welcome. Keep us posted. I am very curious of the result. As I mentioned above I am considering replacing the ANK DAC with an Audio Mirror DAC (and Duelund caps) and getting an Innuos Zennith MK3 music server.
Also, I forgot to mention in my previous post, but one of my previous DAC's (Ayre Acoustics) sounded better with the balanced output even through the transformer on my line stage. That was a fully differential design, though. Those tube / Analog Devices DACs like the ANK and AM sound better single ended in my system.
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If I understand audiomirror's post above correctly the balanced output passes through a transformer (same with my ANK DAC by the way). I am a minimalist and would prefer less components in my signal path. But this would be gear/system dependent. You should try both if you can and decide what you like.
My ANK DAC sounds a little better with RCA interconnects, but that might be because my line stage is not fully balanced. I have a balanced input, which passes through a transformer inside the line stage. So what I might be hearing is the side effect of the transformer in my line stage.
In any case, I thought I would suggest to try the RCA output as well. If you prefer the balanced output, obviously there is no point to replace the stock RCAs. |
Appreciate your feedback on the Holo Springs DAC but the article you referred to comparing the Terminator to the Holo Springs Okay, that’s fair. I never heard the Holo. But I had the Terminator and compared that with the Audio Mirror DAC in my system. I was just trying to help with what I can ... :) |
No, sorry, I haven't heard the Holo Spring 2 DAC. It looks like a very well made DAC, though. |
I agree... this review is a total joke. Funny it was released on April 1st :). It feels like the stars for each category are automatically filled out based on the fact it has a tube - lack of bass, good highs, excellent midrange. This is not what I heard when I had this DAC at my house and listened to it. In fact this whole idea of stars per category is a complete BS in my opinion, especially when they are subjectively rated by different reviewers.
The AM is a world class Hi-Fi DAC at a Lo-Fi price.
I compared it against a Denafrips Terminator, which is another direct sale DAC compared to DACs double its price. After hearing how the Audio Mirror DAC sounded, I sold my Terminator.
Like a typical audiofool, the low price tag and small size turned me off, and I built the top of the line reference Audio Note Kits DAC with the best quality parts. It’s a 40 lbs. beast almost the size of my PS Audio Power Plant P20. After a few months of break in period I brought the Audio Mirror DAC back in my system. The ANK sounded a little better on some recordings, and the difference was indistinguishable on many. I do prefer the ANK, but they are so close. The AM with a better source sounded better than the ANK with a worse source.
The source matters A LOT with these DACs. When I switched the linear power supply on my source with another linear power supply, I heard much bigger difference overall than what I heard while I compared the ANK and AM DACs. In the past year I changed a lot of digital sources. I went from a decent source to a good source, to a better source, to an even better source. Every time I changed the source I was amazed what both of these DACs could deliver. I haven’t reached a limit yet. Those DACs have so much potential that you can reveal by improving your source... I can’t believe it was reviewed with a Sony UHP-H1 player.
Put an Innuos Statement in front of this DAC, and see what it can do. In fact I would put an excellent sounding source and an Audio Mirror DAC against ANY DAC at ANY PRICE fed by Ron’s Sony player.
I am not saying it is the best DAC at any price. Not at all! There are better DACs (my tweaked ANK DAC is a little better in my opinion but I have never heard a tweaked AM DAC either). Just disappointed to see another completely useless review! |
This DS pre and AudioMirror DAC combination is a match in heaven!
I can bet you enjoy the sound like never before :). |
the free upgrade, 1, 3, 5, 4 - in that order. |
How important is the sound for you? Is it so important that you could risk a fire burning down your house? If that's the case, feel free to jump out the fuse. You may get a slight improvement over a good quality fuse.
For the rest of us, some of the best fuses are nearly as good as no fuse. I am using the SR Orange fuse in my DAC. And it's amazing. Highly recommended. |
audio123 - Vlad is the designer. If he is saying it's okay to jump out the fuse, he is probably right. I may give it a try one day. If I do, I will report if a short wire is better than the SR Orange fuse I am currently using. I remember trying jumping a fuse with a thin silver wire once and was disappointed but never tried a solid thick wire. I bet a few extra gauges make a difference there. |
I bi-amp my speakers. They have 18'' woofers that are connected to a dedicated amp. Those woofers are quite efficient and play from 100Hz down. Recently, I compared a powerful SET tube amplifier with a Jeff Rowland 625 S-2 driving the 18'' woofers. I was sure the Jeff Rowland amp would smash the tube amps completely in that application with all its power and genius design. To my biggest surprise the tube amps sounded A LOT better. It was not a small difference... it was big. The tube amps gave me a lot more details in the lower frequency. Acoustic instruments became so much more alive and palpable. One has to hear that to believe it. I had a few friends over and did not tell them exactly what I was doing. I wanted to double check my sanity. They all liked the tube amp better.
So, I am not sure where that myth comes from. If it has a tube, it must have problems with the low frequencies. It's probably from badly designed tube power amps trying to drive speakers they should not be driving...
But for low powered electronics such as DACs and pre-amps, why would someone even think the low frequencies would be a problem? PS Audio's signature preamp uses tubes. Paul McGowan was completely against putting tubes in his equipment all these years, but when BHK designed the tube stage, he compared it with his solid state stage, and he changed his mind. Do people have concerns about the low frequencies when they buy the signature PS Audio BHK preamp? I doubt it.
The Audio Mirror was an eye opener for me. I was a proud owner of Denafrips Terminator, bragging all over about it, when a friend of mine brought his little Audio Mirror DAC in my house. Next to the Terminator, the Audio Mirror DAC looked like a toy. We played both, and the main thing that the Audio Mirror did a lot better was bass. There was no comparison - the bass from the Terminator was so muddy compared to the Audio Mirror. And as I mentioned above I have 18'' woofers in my system, not some small bookshelves that can barely do any bass. Long story short, I sold my Terminator next month. And that was the first version of this new Audio Mirror DAC without any of the upgrades / refinements. The signature edition is so much better!
So there you go my friend, @falconquest . I can't make a comparison with the Holo DAC. But if low frequency is a concern for you with this DAC, you should forget that concern. |
95 dB.
But my point was that a DAC or a preamp does not drive speakers, and I don't think you should have concerns about the low frequency performance just because the DAC has a tube inside... especially with this DAC. |
@cal3713 - I am sending you a PM, so we can keep this thread on topic. |
@teajay thanks for the update.... but wait until it burns in properly. Then the magic happens. That typically takes about 2 weeks of non-stop running.
I just sold my fully pimped up Audio Note Kits DAC 5.1 Signature and replaced it with this Audio Mirror SE.
My Audio Note Kits had every possibly upgrade - Z-foil resistors, Duelund Caps, 5N silver wire, WBT connectors, Furutech NCF IEC, SR Blue fuse, the best tubes I could find, PSVANE WE274B replica rectifier, etc.
I had both DACs running side by side for several months. Every time I listened to them my ears told me that the Audio Mirror is much better. Every time I looked at them, I was convinced that the Audio Note "must" sound better. It's so big and heavy, with all those transformers inside, big caps, sophisticated power supply, and so on. You look at the Audio Mirror next to it, and it looked like a little toy. My eyes were telling me that the Audio Note must be better. But my ears were telling me that the Audio Mirror sounds better. And it did sound better!
Well, I sold the Audio Note Kits DAC 5.1 Signature, kept the Audio Mirror and a bunch of cash, that I invested in a better source. I've listened to a lot of expensive sources, and whatever you put in front of the Audio Mirror DAC, it delivers. It scales with sources many times the price of the DAC. I have not heard it's limits yet. Put an Innous Statement or a PinkFaun streamer, and you would be amazed what it can do. |
I understand there are some big fans of the Orchid DAC here, but let’s face it - the Audio Mirror DAC is in another league.
@teajay said it - "Yes, it does everything with more finesse and performs on a higher qualitative then the Orchid DAC."
I sold my maxed out Audio Note Kit DAC 5.1 Signature, because the Audio Mirror sounded better.
I also had a Denafrips Terminator in my system for almost a year. I would take the Audio Mirror SE DAC instead of the Terminator any day! With no hesitation at all. And I would not regret for a second.
You asked @teajay for comparison. He listened and spent the time to do it. And now it’s not fair?!? He has not even heard the full potential of the Audio Mirror DAC yet, because it’s not fully broken in yet. This Audio Mirror DAC is up there with $10K DACs, believe it or not. You just need to optimize the upstream components, and it would deliver. |
The only ~$10K I have compared it with was the $9,375 Lampizator Atlantic. I prefer the Audio Mirror SE. Also, look at my comment above about the Audio Note Kits DAC 5.1 Signature (over $6,500 after the upgrades), which I recently sold on USAudioMart. I’ve had many other DACs in the $2-$5K range. They are all gone. I am having a hard time finding any other DAC that is so musical, engaging, and analog sounding up to a $10K price range. If I had a much bigger budget I would get the Cerat Kassandra II Ref. Until then, I am enjoying the Audio Mirror SE DAC. Happy Listening. |
It was the Atlantic, not the Golden Atlantic.
I screwed up on the price. It's $5K, not $10K. I have not listened to the Golden Atlantic in my system, only at shows with horrible rooms, but that does not count.
So it turns out I have not really compared the Audio Mirror SE with any $10K DACs. The most expensive DAC's I have compared with were $6K-$7K.
BTW, that also includes a PS Audio DirectStream DAC. I heard what their latest firmware upgrade, Windom, did compared to the previous version at my friend's house. He asked me to go and listen and tell him what I think. I felt like the difference was so big, that it sounded like a new DAC. I've had a PS Audio DirectStream DAC in the past, but it was not my cup of tea. After hearing the Windom, I saw that PS Audio had an amazing black friday promotion, and I bought one to try (again) at home. At this time I had the Audio Note Kits DAC 5.1 Signature and an Audio Mirror DAC. And I added the PS Audio. Let it run non-stop for three weeks, and did many hours of listening on the fourth week. Needless to say, but the PS Audio took a good use of their super generous return policy. I respect Paul McGowan a lot and watch his YouTube videos, but claiming that the DirectStream is one of the best DACs in the world... well there is a disagreement there, to say the least. I have their PowerPlant P20, and it's good, and I wanted to like their DAC, because it looks cool next to the P20... but I did not like it. Actually, I did not have the PS Audio DirectStream with Windom and the Denafrips Terminator in my system at the same time, but I am pretty sure I would prefer the Terminator between the two. These are all my own personal choices obviously.
Again, my apologies for screwing up the Lampi models. But the rest, I've had. Most of them are in my USAudioMart profile (sold), and I have the receipts for the rests if anyone doubts my credibility after my Lampi error.
The Audio Mirror is small and cheap (for its level of performance)... and it does not feel right to sound so good. But until I hear something better, that would be my reference DAC.
It also probably comes down to a personal preference. I have a much higher end analog rig that is hard to beat. And I might be too attached to a high end analog sound and definitely don't appreciate any sterile, lean, body-less, harsh digital "hi-fi" sound. I have been working on my digital front end for the past 3 years trying a lot of the modern sources out there like Sonore, Allo, Audiobyte, SOTM, Innuos, PinkFaun, etc. Things started to get much better after investing around $15K in my digital source (upstream from the DAC). That's still just slightly over the price of my phono cartridge only. But with an excellent source and some of those modernized analog devices AD1865NK DACs (like AudioNote and AudioMirror) I started to like my digital rig too. That's why I am looking at the Cerat Kassandra II Ref as the next (big) step up (especially in price).
BTW, @ghasley you got me intrigued with your comment about the Golden Atlantic! It's in my price range, and if it is as good as you say, I may give it a try. I just hope it's lot better than the Atlantic I heard. And no, there was nothing wrong with that system. It was mine :).
I am open to try more of the more expensive DACs in the future, and will to that, but until then, I have this little toy (but big sound machine) to play with.
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One of the reasons the new SE Audio Mirror DAC sounds so good is because it is naturally deep cryogenically treated during the winter months in Minnesota. I've heard rumors that each DAC spends 24 hours outside in the deep snow in -40 before it gets shipped to its customer. And if there are several hot days (i.e. -15F) in a row, shipments get delayed. |
