Another fallacy about speakers


Often we hear manufacturers saying they use custom drivers. The word custom makes us believe we are getting sonething from them that wouldn’t otherwise be available. The problem is, you are not getting anything extra thats worthwhile. If the driver needs modifying it should have been designed like that in the first place.

Theres no reason the non custom version couldnt be used its just as good.

By extension some manufacturers make their own drivers and claim they are really special.

But again its unlikely that the cone drivers or tweeters they make are significantly better than ones availabe off shelf. Off shelf drivers can be very high end and expensive.

In conclusion, Do not buy the BS claims about custom drivers. A driver is just a bit of paper and metal. Even some genuinely well regarded high end speakers use modestly priced off shelf parts. The results can be just as good.

Theres rarely if ever any independently verified evidence for these claims anyway. Even if one measurement is superior to another it doesn’t mean you’ll hear it. If you cant hear it, theres no point. They do it to get your attention and increase their profits. Do not be deceived



kenjit
 Boy we sure are lucky to have you...
Custom doesn't necessarily mean better. I would rather hear verbiage like matched frequency or low impedance.
@ WG17    a big +1...just like all cars are just metal and plastic.
theres a lot more metal in a car than a woofer. But sometimes a woofer may cost almost as much as a cheap car. 
Hi Kenjit,

Please tell us what kind of commercial speakers you have heard which you really like, and which one's you don't like so we can understand your tastes.

What speakers got you interested in audio to begin with?

If not, then show us what you are currently using, and if DIY if there is a blog or anything about how they were built.


Thanks,

Erik
The opening statement here is false as probably many reading this thread suspect.
MISCO (Minneapolis Speaker Company) makes many sorts of custom drivers. Its more than just a bit of paper and metal. For example, we have a speaker on hand that employs carbon fiber in its cone, this is to stiffen it and make it light enough to be able to keep up with the speed of the tweeter, which is very fast (a bending wave driver also custom built). Overall the speaker (High Emotion Audio Bella Twin; not certain if its still being made) is one of the fastest we've heard; the only other speakers we've heard with the same speed are ESLs and field coil speakers (both of which are also entirely custom built regardless of brand).
I can point to many other examples. The best I can make of the opening post here is that its simply outright trolling.
another idiotic and useless thread. thanks!

Another MUST READ!

hahahahahaha

thank the lord we have Kenjit on-board to tell us how the world works. I feel better just knowing he’s looking into all of these scams for us.
NO,NO , The thread is very  good,  Some company use famous brand 
like SEAS,     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4d7U2tEq4g Spendor A7 unboxing. the use own label over existing.
Huge company like Klipsch  Triangle, etc have own production, some 
like Egglstoneworks use good one from famous manufacturer and 
dont try to misinform, But General question is ?  which is drivers can be better, from loudspeakers  company's or from famous drivers productions ?   
I think we should send kenjit to bed without supper:)
It is my belief that some companies deliberately make tiny modifications to the drivers just so they can use words like custom which they know will make it appear special. 
The best I can make of the opening post here is that its simplyoutright trolling.

Sadly you are overestimating him.  He actually believes the garbage he spews forth here and in other inane threads.  My advice -- don't waste your time responding to this, or any of his other threads, like I just did.  Ugh.

@kenjit  dont pay attention.  folk more interested how is power cord
affected to soundstage  

To be fair, there is a reasonable point to be found in the OP. Those speaker companies who produce their own drivers often make much of this, because they know how it implies that the performance their product offers is all the more proprietary and advanced. This type of stuff is cat-nip to many audiophiles.

So it is wise to remember that just because a company makes it’s own drivers does not mean those drivers are any better in performance than those that can be bought off-the-shelf. After all, some of the companies that produce drivers have had far more experience, and time, and money, and engineers, thrown at making great drivers, than a smaller speaker company that doesn’t specialize in drivers.

On the other hand, as usual kenjit goes overboard claiming you don’t get anything that’s worthwhile from a speaker company making their own drivers. That is also of course silly.

For instance, some companies choosing to produce time/phase coherent speakers, e.g. Thiel, Vandersteen, have designs that place greater demands on drivers than usual, in terms of operating over a wider bandwidth without distortion. Jim Thiel’s driver designs, especially for his last products, where as unique and impressive and integral as the other aspects of his speaker design.
 I dont think The Thiel , Vandersteen etc can compare to big famous 
Scan Speak, Fostex , Morel. Is different league 
Apparently it’s true that drivers make far less difference than was previously thought, at least if we’re comparing like for like size-wise.

Probably the only difference of note would be down to cone materials. For some of us it’s nice to know that despite being declared dead some 60 years ago paper is still going strong.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/farewell-paper-cone

Crossover and cabinet materials and design have far more influence on the final sound.

Customised or in house drivers seem only to be an issue if there are any concerns over future supply or quality control issues.

Perhaps the OP is merely advocating the validity of DIY designs?




some companies choosing to produce time/phase coherent speakers, e.g. Thiel, Vandersteen, have designs that place greater demands on drivers than usual, in terms of operating over a wider bandwidth without distortion.
It is not an achievement to force a 6 inch woofer to reach 10khz without much distortion. It is a COMPROMISE. That woofer will never cover the higher frequencies as well as a smaller tweeter would. There are no benefits only drawbacks to having TWO drivers both the woofer and tweeter playing at the same time over such a wide bandwidth. You only need one driver to play at a time.

Are two pairs of high end speakers playing at the same time in the same room better than just one pair? Of course not. 


All drivers that did not exist previously are essentially custom.

For example good thing Lincoln Walsh did not operate under the assumption the drivers he sought already existed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Walsh

You would like Fritz speakers.  He takes all kinds of existing drivers and makes all kinds of top notch high value speakers using them.
is not correct ,  In all my application   wide range driver is allowed to operate ‘way into the high frequencies—there is no high-frequency roll off. No any coil  .  that mean less any  distortion , not more.  that allow me
to use super-tweeter instead regular one. 
theres a lot more metal in a car than a woofer. But sometimes a woofer may cost almost as much as a cheap car
@kenjit  I just bought 1,000 cans of peaches.  More metal than in my car but I paid less.  I guess I got a deal!
false .1000  pcs   about 200 pounds, you need to by about 50 times more
50,000 cans and pay  $20,000, but what you gonna do with paiches, EAT ?
@bache   I really hope you're better at building speakers than math. The can of peaches I just pulled out of my fridge says it weighs 30 oz. (that's 1 lb. 14 oz. for those challenged thusly). So 1000 pieces, as you call them, will weigh just short of a ton. But wait...we're needing 50 times more than this so now we're up to just short of 50 tons. Could you please identify for me the 50 ton car that is in your driveway? BTW, my can of peaches is rather large so let's say that the "average" can weighs a pound. So by your math, we're down to just 25 tons now for your car. I'm glad you can afford the gas.
Perhaps @bache  is basing his calculations on the weight of the metal can and not the can filled with peaches?  : )
It looks like it's time for the op to find a new hobby. 
@acresverde   You calculate weigh metal can with peaches. 30oz , but I calculate the weigh  metal can only , about 1oz becouse peaches is not a metal, we compare metals weight only.



Wile E Coyote - Super Genius

This is a good time for some hats...

@thecarpathian
Indeed it is, my friend! Indeed it is...
As my uncle Thaddeus used to say- "Banish the bickering with a bowler, stop the stinging with a Stetson, and start the fun with a fedora!"


Ha, I like that Thaddeus cat!

I searched bowlers yesterday, this could end up being your fault!

All the best-
@bache Actually I dropped a digit and meant to write 10,000 cans.  Didn't correct it because I didn't think anyone would take my post seriously.

But No. 10 cans, empty, weigh approx. 11-12 oz (lined vs unlined, lid type).  You get my point.  Not only did I get the metal, I got to eat the delicious peaches.  And at the end I still don't have a car.  Or speakers.

Yep, ha! The mystery is solved!
kenjit

You seem to fighting a lonely battle so I will agree with you about the custom speaker BS.. paint em silver put a ripple in em, put a nipple in the middle,,all BS. Buy from a huge drive manufacture and tell him to put a few extra winds on the coil and voila, a custom driver...just like that...
Audioholics just put out a vid within the past few days about the this same subject and spoke about many of the things you mentioned in your post 
Harbeth, ATC & PMC have impeccable reputations for producing  truly excellent speakers at their price points utilising their own divers.

PMC also produce speakers for the professional market and have been awarded an Emmy in recognition of their "contribution to recording excellence".

Perhaps they know a thing or two about drive units.
Harbeth, ATC & PMC have impeccable reputations for producing excellent speakers at their price points utilising their own divers.

PMC also produce very highly regarded speakers for the professional market and have been awarded an Emmy in recognition of their "contribution to recording excellence".

Perhaps they know a thing or two about drive units.
Audioholics just put out a vid within the past few days about the this same subject and spoke about many of the things you mentioned in your post
In which case, my points are even more valid and all the scepticism is unwarranted. 
PMC also produce speakers for the professional market and have been awarded an Emmy in recognition of their "contribution to recording excellence".
I dont care. Every professional sound engineer uses a different speaker. Its just a matter of preference. All studio monitors claim to be accurate and neutral but all sound different. Do not be deceived. 
Then why do some of the best studios in the world choose PMCs when they could buy many alternatives at a quarter of the cost?

They are paying for the time and effort putting into designing the best drive units for the job.
@kenjit What about coaxial drivers. Seas makes expensive coaxial drivers that cost $1000/pair but I’m not sure they are as good as KEF's Uni-Q.
Then why do some of the best studios in the world choose PMCs when they could buy many alternatives at a quarter of the cost?

They are paying for the time and effort putting into designing the best drive units for the job.
show me the measurements that PMC speakers are superior. Why arent there any?
I am surprised by how such a subjective auditory experience, exactly unique in every way, can take itself so seriously. Serious enough to attract the opinion of anybody with a keyboard. Engineers to Trolls. And that is only the average.
 There is a fringe that brackets either side. They post too. Count the major variables Keep in mind that each major variable is comprised of an aggregate of minor variables.
1. Your ability to hear clearly. Genetics and hearing damage.
2. The listening environment. Stadium, acoustic room, living room and car
3. Amplifier, tube, ss or hybrid.
4. Source of music input. Too many to list as examples.
5. Loud Speakers, Q, crossover and impedence.

So, as an OP, make sense, or entertain or don’t waste our time.
The top pro recording engineers in the business are only interested in making the best recordings they possibly can, not looking at spec sheets and measurements.

Their livelihood depends on it.
Oh, you mean the ones who are compressing the bejesus out of the recordings? My impression is they do what they’re told. 
Drivers aren’t just a bit of paper and metal.
Some use carbon fiber, beryllium, other advanced materials.
They are very sophisticated and high tech in many cases. For example KEF has been working on and perfecting their coaxials for literally 
decades.
It's the reason i stopped using a phone and went back to a tin can and a string.  Sometimes I use a large tin can and other times i use a small soup can.  I can customize my phone.

Many manufacturers buy their drivers from sole driver manufacturers. I had read a list years ago of many of the US speaker companies that used Eminence drivers, made in Kentucky and are actually damn good speakers. Of course ScanSpeak and Seas are used in many US made speakers as well as some damn good Asian ones.

Don't let this distract you from the fact that in 1966, Al Bundy scored 4 touchdowns in a single game while playing for the Polk High School Panthers in the 1966 city championship game versus Andrew Johnson High School, including the game winning touchdown in the final seconds against his old nemesis, Bubba "Spare Tire" DIxon.

Completely false premise based on total misinformation and lies.

1. If you have an order for 250 drivers or more, Seas, Tympani (Peerless), Vifa, Tang Bang, Tonogen, HiVi, etc etc will make you a 'custom' driver. 
2. A 'custom' driver can be anything from a branded faceplate or dust cap, to a complete re-working of the driver for your needs
3. The most common customization of a driver is linearity of frequency. If the cone breakup is right where the designer wants to put in a crossover, or does not want to use a notch filter, then they can change the cone/surround etc. All 'off the shelf' drivers are basically a huge compromise in design to try and appease as many potential customers as possible. 
4. BL factor (how the magnet structure works), Mms (moving mass), BL canceling (to magnetically damp the driver at the end of it's travel), and efficiency would be the next group of typical changes. Some manufactuers like to use reflex porting, which requires more magnetic cancelation. Some use slot loading, Transmission line, etc etc. All need different magnet structures to achive linearity (of output or impeadance)
5. You can make several changes in driver phase response with very small changes to the drivers construction. Typical in British speakers. B&W does this in-house to allow for a simplier crossover. The problem is efficency suffers, as well as power handling, which is why B&W tweeters fail so easily, and why their mid-bass detail is so terrible (because they have a large magnetic gap in their drivers to increase power handling, but that makes it sound worse)
6. Pull out the drivers from any Mass Market speaker brand and you will most likely find a stamp on the back starting with 'T' and ending with other letters. These are all Tonegen drivers. Tonegen got there claim to fame for making drivers to spec for Infinity in the '70's. They were the best Asian made drivers at the time by a large margin. Still are one of the best. The closer to 'A' the second letter of the model is, the higher end the driver. EG: "TE" labeled drivers are used in current Linn, Old infinity, NHT, Monitor Audio, etc etc. :"TS" designation is what you would find in a table-top computer speaker. 
7. I have had custom drivers made for me by Arraba, Dynaudio (a very long time ago), Seas, Peerless, Vifa, Scan Speak, and Skanning. I used to make high end speakers for others and for my brand. 
8. Driver manufactuers 'off the shelf' drivers have mostly been made designed for 'enthusiasts' and 'constructors' who make their own speakers. These are usually individuals or small companies that make speakers by 'listening' and do not have any sophiticated phase or impedance measuring equipment to be able to determine driver differences. The tolerances are typicalloy +/- 15%, meaning no matter how much effort you put in to the design, the left and right speaker may not sound/image/bloom dynamically the same. This is very bad for a high end speaker.
9. Tolerences !  Just getting a custom run of Seal 11FGX drivers that were in 5% tolerence for impeadance curves was like pulling teeth !   KEF used to use 'batching' for their drivers, because it was so hard to achieve this. They would match the crossvovers (also batched) to the like drivers, to get consistent product quality. 
10. Tang Band: They make some of the best Asian drivers now. Still not very high BL factors (tolerances of the magnetic gap are still wide, so they will not fail as easily, but do not have the low level detail of a Scan Speak, for example). Definitive Technology used to use all TangBand drivers, not sure what they use now. 

I could go on for months about loudspeaker design......



Those who don't know should not guess and lie.
Those who do know should share and inform.
Not being one to "follow" any members on this board, I don't see a difference between the OP and any of the other gate-keeping , self appointed geniuses found in Agon forums. But, it's neat seeing them having to look in the  mirror. Take another read, that's what you sound like.