An interesting experiment


I have recently been experimenting with different preamps, as I found a while ago that this seems to be the component that influences the sound of my system the most. Being an EE (and a physicist by training)I was trying to figure out the source of the different sounds that tube and SS give me. I am a firm believer that good designs with modern electronics all sound the same (at least to my ears). As tubes are new to me I studied their specs a little, and recently realized that one big difference vs. SS is their output impedance. To be clear, I am talking about minimalist tube design, where the output stage is driven directly by the tube. As it turns out, tube designs have much higher output impedance. For example a 6SN7/6922 based preamp probably has an output impedance on the order of 8K/3K ohms respectively. While a typical SS would be less than 500 ohm. So as an experiment I put together a passive preamp with a series potentiometer that allows me to change the output impedance of the source. I connected my CD output through this "preamp" directly to the power amp. At this stage after listening for awhile I believe that my new setup sounds a lot like my tube setup (which has an audible illusions M3A pre, and magnepan 20.1s). The curious thing is that I had to dial the output impedance to around 30K ohm, which I believe is significantly higher than the tube pre. I know this setup by all accounts should be bad....

Regardless, to my ears this strange setup sounds excellent. I dare even say, better than with the preamp in the loop.
oferi

Showing 4 responses by almarg

A point that should be kept in mind is that the commonly stated 10x guideline for optimal impedance matching of line-level interfaces is commonly mistated and misinterpreted, as I see it.

That guideline says that for line-level interfaces ideally the load impedance should be 10 or more times greater than the source impedance, at the frequency for which that ratio is lowest.

That is commonly misinterpreted to mean that if the ratio is less than a factor of 10 sonics will necessarily be compromised. Which is not correct. Meeting the 10x guideline will pretty much assure that there won't be an impedance compatibility problem. But not meeting that guideline does not necessarily mean there will be a problem. It depends mainly (although not entirely) on how the two impedances VARY as a function of frequency.

If the two impedances are essentially resistive, and therefore do not vary significantly as a function of frequency, and if the load impedance is not so low that it causes a significant degradation of the performance of the output stage of the source, such as a rise in distortion, and if the high source impedance does not result in excessive interaction with cable parameters, especially capacitance, then even a 1:1 ratio would be fine. The only effect would be a small reduction in signal level, which would be compensated for with the volume control if necessary.

Most (but not all) tube preamps have a substantial rise in their output impedance at deep bass frequencies, as a result of the output coupling capacitor most of them use. That will cause a significant rolloff of deep bass response if the load impedance is not substantially greater (ideally 10 or more times greater) than the source impedance at 20 Hz. Raising the output impedance of a solid state source by means of resistors or potentiometers will not cause that impedance variation, and will not have that effect. Although if the output impedance is raised to very high levels, such as the 30K number you mentioned, there will likely be significant rolloff of the upper treble, and consequent softening of high speed transients, resulting from the interaction of that impedance with cable capacitance.

A corollary to all of this is that a high degree of consistency should not be expected between the results of these kinds of experiments among different systems. How the impedances that are involved vary as a function of frequency will be different for different components. Interconnect cable parameters will also differ from system to system, as will the lengths of those cables upon which the parameters are dependent.

Regards,
-- Al
Cymbop, thank you most kindly! However, I respectfully decline the nomination, as I'd much rather spend time listening to my stereo than dealing with being President :-)

George, thanks. I haven't checked your calculations, but I know from past threads that you are very accurate in these matters. I would just add two points that others should keep in mind.

First, the obvious one that many people will require significantly longer lengths than 1 meter. And cable capacitance will increase in direct proportion with length, which will decrease bandwidth correspondingly.

Second, the bandwidth of the low pass filter that is formed by the interaction of output impedance and cable capacitance arguably needs to be at least several times greater than the 20 kHz nominal bandwidth of our hearing, to eliminate the possibility that phase shifts caused by that filter may have audible consequences.

Oferi, thanks for an interesting thread. Enjoy your experiments!

Regards,
-- Al
George, after submitting my post just above I did notice something in your calculations that prompted me to look at them further. A minor correction: The attenuation at half the 3db bandwidth frequency won't be 1.5 db.

"-1.5 db" (in three places) should actually be about "-0.97 db," corresponding to:

20log(1/(Square root(1 + (f/f3db)^2)))

f/f3db, the ratio of frequency to 3db bandwidth, being 0.5 in your three corresponding examples.

Regards,
-- Al
Thanks Bruce (Bifwynne)!

Everything in your post is correct. For two impedances in parallel, assuming they are purely resistive (which is usually a good approximation when it comes to input impedances) their combined impedance is the product (multiplication) of the two numbers divided by their sum.

The answer will always be smaller than each of the two numbers.

Best,
-- Al