An Audiophile is Anyone Who Loves Audio Regardless of Monetary Status. Agree?
One group should not be allowed to monopolize the term above another as their own status symbol. you i and anyone else who likes audio can be considered an audiophile regardless of the size of your bank account.
There has been a lot of "it does not have to be expensive" statements here. Can anyone give some examples that she/he thinks most of the people could recognize? Maybe not $1000 vs $1100 difference, but something more obvious. $1000 vs. $5000 or something in that direction.
I have never heard an item that was more expensive than the other one while sounding worse. I have not heard it on the $200-300 level and I have not heard it on much higher (price) level. It may be bias or whatever else, but it has, so far, been the rule. More expensive sounded better to me.
Please give us examples so we know what we are really talking about.
Although I have not been to the various big audio shows, I have often heard attendees make statements about room comparisons. Some would note that the multi-million dollar room did not sound as good or better than another room with electronics costing much less than 200k. I guess maybe the room acoustics make all the difference ?? I don’t think having either a budget system or multi million dollar system would make someone an audiophile.
I have never heard an item that was more expensive than the other one while sounding worse.
Jesus, really?? Because I have. I’ll just start a firestorm if I start naming labels. I’ve heard much worse, or equal with a wide discrepancy in prices.
I'm talking about gear within similar performance envelopes here. I'm not comparing a small desktop monitor to a mega speaker.
Visit a high end audio show and judge for yourself.
Knowing your room and what is appropriate for your room is very important. I have three different models (design tiers/cost levels) of a speaker made by one manufacturer. The middle and/lower level models work best in my room. The highest cost model is not appropriate for my room (and given the height of its tweeters and midranges, I doubt audio holography would be possible with them if in a seated listening position). Im sharing this as just a small example of when more expensive does not equate to a better listening experience.
And as a ‘chicken or the egg’ sort of thing, you need to decide what you are building your system around. Generally, you need to start building your system within the constraints presented to you by your intended listening room. After that what you build your system around will be based on what you want to hear and what gear helps get you closer to that goal. This takes trial and error and will change during the course of your journey (unless you just pay someone to do it for you, but then you don’t really learn as much, but is still totally valid audiophilia). As pieces move in and out of your system you will find areas of your setup that need improvement. It’s fun, takes time...but when you are reliably having near-spiritual experiences while listening to music, it’s very rewarding!
I have found that speaker choice and room interaction is most important. Making choices regarding placement of speakers, tweeter height, some form of bass frequency control (back wall bounces will kill your bass!), flooring and general room treatments will have the greatest impact on the listening experience. Amplification is next. Thirdly something that cleans up the power feeding your gear is of great importance. Balanced power solutions are integral to my system.
@vinny55 : "Speak for yourself @N80 im nowhere near rich like you and evil? Imperfect yes.. evil is a stretch. Your just saying that to make yourself feel better."
That is exactly the response I'd expect from you. You accuse people of being wealthy, as if it is a crime, but then excuse yourself from the same crime as if you are the one who gets to decide who is wealthy and wicked and who isn't. Funny how the cutoff is just north of your wealth level. So typical.
@bretmcee: "@n80 yeah, maybe just don’t use analogies my friend, because using one poorly does the exact opposite of what you are trying to achieve."
Actually, the analogies served their purpose perfectly well. Picking apart an analogy while failing to grasp the primary point is just as bad as a bad analogy.
"All of your analogies require a career in something or specific training. Audiophilia, by globally accepted definition, requires neither being a professional, nor any type of training."
All of my analogies require a certain level of experience. You focused on the wrong common denominator trying to support a point that is unsupportable.
"Also look at the definition of the word aficionado." Actually, I think you are the one who needs to look it up since it includes elements of knowledge about the subject and a "fervent" pursuit of it. So lack of experience and first hand knowledge of a subject certainly disqualifies one as an aficionado. Listening through ear buds as you sole audio experience does not qualify one as an aficionado not matter how "enthusiastic" one is. Wishing something is true is far different from the truth. But in the end, I don't really care how you or vinny want to define audiophile. In your worlds where word meaning has no concrete value then anything goes. But it seems a bit ironic....no, hypocritical would be the better word, that you want to define audiophile any way you want but then have very specific, and hateful, labels for those you define as wealthy.
And you can't argue with someone who has their own definitions for everything.
You live in a magical world. I hope life is good there for you.
An Audiophile is someone actively pursuing means to increase the enjoyment gained from the reproduction of sound in ones own private listening space.
I think that pretty much sums it up and is inclusive of most points of view.
...oh and there is this: Merriam-Webster Dictionary
audiophileaudiophilenoun au·dio·phile|\ ˈȯ-dē-ō-ˌfī(-ə)l\Definition of audiophile: a person who is enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction
...don’t see any entry-level requirements in them there definitions. Anyone?
Somebody here smells like an elitist, maybe even a fascist?
Funny how Americans (and much of the world) have so quickly forgotten the great evils we quashed in WWII and are now so willing, even excited to rekindle those destructive ideologies.
Money does strange things to peoples brains. I think Pink Floyd had a song about it.
"a person who is enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction"
Again that sets some level of unmeasured and unmeasurable ’enthusiasm’ as the criteria for being an audiophile. How much enthusiasm does it take brett? Just any little bit? No experience. No components. Heck, you don’t really even see a reference to music there, do you? In fact, it doesn’t even say anything about listening. Great definition.
I also think it is telling that you are now equating wealth with fascism. I suspect ’fascism’ is another term you don’t really grasp. It does not equate to authority or even power by the way.
And here is the ironic thing, you invoke WWII and the fascism that led to it yet you don’t seem to grasp how fascism actually works. Two of its primary tenets and practical applications are 1) labeling groups (as you have just done) in order to villainize and marginalize them and thereby suppress them and 2) limiting the free expression of ideas. The easiest way to do that, and the way historic fascists have done so, is to brand certain types of speech and expression as ’hate speech’ to coin a modern term, or as ’dangerous’. This ends all arguments against the fascist system before they can begin.
So maybe you should read up on how fascism works rather than just branding people with a term you don’t seem to understand...............or better yet, stop branding and labeling people............especially people you don’t know................and large groups with only one single common denominator...........you know...........like wealth.
And again the irony and hypocrisy are rich. Every one with more than you are wealthy, greedy fascists. Your material means don’t count against you....unlike those you villify......you are somehow superior. Oh the irony!
Any way, I'm off to my country home for a few days to suppress a peasant uprising so I'm done with this thread. As I said, arguing with people who make up their own definitions is fruitless as you and vinny have amply proven.
@n80 Did you read the commonly accepted definitions of Audiophile as defined in the Mirriam-Webster Dictionary and the Cambridge Dictionary? Please try some other web searches to verify.
Now think about your definition and the accepted definitions (not made up by people here). Now who is making up their own definitions and claiming superiority?
And ask yourself which definition is more inclusive. I think inviting people in is ultimately more beneficial to this shared passion and pursuit of ours than excluding, don't you?
Nowhere in my posts have I excluded anyone except in saying that 'music lover' is not a synonym of 'audiophile' (that and that there are a lot of rich idiots out there just looking to add more precious metals to their gear at little or no improvement in listening experience...but i didn't say they were not audiophiles!).
You can be a filthy rich audiophile, have at it (as you are)! But I also think that if you work for it, educate yourself, learn about excellent vintage gear and search out bargains at garage sales, flea markets, Goodwills, Craigslist and eBay and augment if needed with some wise spending new things here and there, you can and should be considered an EQUAL AUDIOPHILE.
You seem to not agree with this. You believe there is an 'entry level' which is not defined in any definition of the word Audiophile. That sounds rather elitist to me. Fascists are against democracy, they lean towards totalitarian leadership and a 'leadership class' or 'race'. The wealthy in our country are becoming increasingly Fascist, so are the very poor. That's plainly evident.
Lets give people who are not you a name. Lets call the less financially flexible person Mr. Budget Audiophile. Is Mr. Budget Audiophiles system going to be as technically proficient as yours, probably not. But could his system sound better in his room than yours would in his room to him, probably. Could he be appreciating in his room, on his diminutive system the same things you are appreciating in you musical cathedral, I think so. Could you put together a better system for Mr. Budget Audiophiles' room if money were no object, of course! But if we follow this line of argument to its logical end, we eventually have to build Mr. Budget Audiophile a new listening room, in a new house and build that house on a floating iceberg in the Arctic Circle and float that house on a bed of air, and make sure all the gear levitates along with Mr. No Longer Budget Audiophile during his listening sessions.
A sense of proportion and perspective is important in the appreciation of anything and having both helps make better people, a better society.
You believe the sheep can't hear the forest for the leaves unless those leaves are made of money.
It's about mindset, not money. I have friends that have built most of their systems from scratch or kits. I also have friends that have paid $250K+ for a dedicated room and electronics. I consider both groups audiophiles.
Some people have a lot to time, some have a lot of money and some have a lot of knowledge and skill. Any of them that commit a significant amount of their time, money or knowledge/skill toward better audio reproduction could certainly be considered audiophiles.
It is just me who noticed improvement (at least what seemed to be an improvement to me) with increase of the price of some component. I give it benefit of the doubt that it may not be always so, but examples are hard to find. It is always vague for some reason.
Of course, I am also not talking about $50 Bluetooth speaker vs. $200 000 speaker although it would be another example of "expensive happens to be better". I have been to a show, or two, and have also compared a few systems in the same store. Naively, more expensive ones were better. To me at that time.
If you can get Luxman 509X to hear at your home, you might like it more than your current one. The difference in price may be noticeable.
There is no doubt that room has a lot to do with final performance. I suspect that the world's most expensive speakers may not sound as the world's best speakers once placed in the mountain cave, but overall the price does follow "quality". There may be items that are slightly better ("better" being "I like them more") while slightly less expensive than others. Still, this thread is full of generalizations and not many examples.
By the way, this definition may have, a fatal flaw...
"...to increase the enjoyment gained from the reproduction of sound in ones own private listening space."
It would exclude anyone who listens, or tries to improve something, anywhere else but in own private listening space. Concession should be made for headphone listening in public transport, I guess.
Also, do not forget that just owning a pair of speakers, not a Bose radio but separate pair of speakers, is a luxury in many/most of the people's minds. It is, to some extent, a wasteful indulgence. A hobby of those spoiled few who do not care about money. Spending $500 for a pair of speakers is about the same as spending $500 000. Unnecessary in a grand scheme of things. Number is different, but anything is too much anyway. Add prices of all three pairs of your speakers (or how many more you have) and you will get the actual price of your "speakers" for the purpose of "cheap vs. expensive" argument and socio-economic debate raging here.
“Fast-forward into the mid-nineteen-forties. The Second World War had just ended. Americans were picking over the technological remains of German industry. One of the things they discovered was magnetic tape; the Nazis had been using tape recording to broadcast propaganda across time zones. It was a remarkable invention. ”
There have been many inventions but considering snatching tape recording as one of the culprits for World War II is a bit of a stretch. It makes for a nice cocktail party trivia, though.
Well unless you tell me what this work is I cant judge and you will not get any props. Pretty tall order making the world a better place, I find it strange that you would feel the need to share that with us. I usually find those that make the greatest impact tend to not share this with others. Hubris is a pretty nasty thing.
Rest assured, beyond this chat and this site, I have added some entertainment to your life. I share because I’ve worked hard for what I have and I am proud of it. Working for what you have was my point. And i have worked hard at assembling a reasonable audiophile setup.
I have little respect for those who are not inclusive, especially in respects to something as ultimately unimportant as a pursuit for quality audio reproduction. Something that seems pretty common on this site and others. Wealth and elitism is clearly evident in this pursuit. And those people are why this world is coming apart.
Don't take jsautter's comments as an attack. They do not seem to be. They are more like some kind of a guidance.
It is good to be proud of your work and you should be. However, once you start flaunting it around, it becomes a little slippery. It becomes about who is a bigger boy. And the person on the other side of your computer screen, the one to whose life you have added some entertainment, might have added some years to your life. Then it becomes a joke and you do not want to feel like your work is less valuable. Stay away from bragging about it.
Other things are fine, they are your opinions regardless of who agrees or disagrees with you.
I educate myself daily and read very accurately to the dismay of some.
I just educated myself about your work. At least I think I got it right as the work you imply and your name here nicely align with what I think is your website. I can see why you are so confident that you added entertainment to many people’s lives. You surely have. Not to mine, but you do get credit for others’. Now, if you could do Despicable Me, you could add me to the list of happy admirers. Until then, just another guy who does work I am not interested in. I am glad it works for you.
EDIT: Your website looks nice. Simple and easy. However, "view resume" link does not work.
If the pictures on your blog are anything to go by, you do have what most of the less-fortunate people would consider an "expensive taste".
Glad you found it Glupson. Thanks for looking! You never saw Avatar? I'd give it a watch on a lazy Sunday for sure. How to Train Your Dragon 3 is also a very aesthetic experience in a darkened room--great lighting and excellent image fidelity.
Sorry about the 'educate yourself' reply. I never said WWII was about audio reproduction. What I was concerned about was how we the people have allowed aristocracy and elements of fascism to creep into our daily discourse, thought processes and dealings with each other.
Yes my site is simple, quickly threw it together on a Saturday. And yes the 'view resume' link does not work, hasn't worked for years...but generally I provide it via email or LinkedIn. Maybe I will fix that today as I need to make one other update. Thanks for the reminder!
I am very sorry if I am coming off as a dick. I'm just continually amazed how even here on this excellent site, in this most excellent pursuit, people are so quick to dismiss others. And still considering myself new to this hobby (I will probably consider myself new to this hobby for the rest of my life), let me say that Audiophiles seem to be a very snooty bunch! And snooty-ness generally comes from people who aren't certain they deserve what they have and/or want to make more valuable the choices they have made by dismissing or limiting the choices of others. No one wants to be wrong or gypped or for everyone to have exactly what they have. Some people want what they have to be unattainable by others as proof of their power and the incredible 'self' they have created. It's all very yucky.
And the real basis of the snooty-ness is that we are all dancing around an unattainable truth that is perfect sound reproduction and a perfect listening experience. Each of us has probably already gained a satisfactory window onto that truth and don't want it questioned. Totally understandable. BUT ANYONE SEARCHING FOR THAT TRUTH SHOULD BE EMBRACED.
....I never said I had a budget setup. But I don't think less of someone because they have less financial means than I. And even though they have less means than I, they may have a better mind, keener awareness, put in more work, or simply have better ears.
I will think less of someone if they did not work for what they have and if they are clearly apathetic towards others.
All of my gear except my ModWright Oppo is second-hand. I am proud of this. Well researched. Well maintained. Pictured on my site is an older setup. I have much better amplification now and have added a reel to reel player (which I had hoped would not be amazing, but it's freakin' amazing!). I have done work on the speakers. Kappa 7's and 8's are excellent speakers when driven properly. The 8's can pressurize the whole room and just vanish, like the air itself is just producing the sound--no mechanism. The 9's are overkill and too tall for my room (tweeter height in a room is very important). But they have the most large, easy and encompassing bass I have ever heard.
Until I have a major financial windfall and can build a bigger, better room and populate it with more contemporary gear (probably never) I am more than content with my setup.
And like i said, any and all of you are welcome to visit anytime.
brett, As glupson said my comments werent an attack. Perhaps it is a West Coast thing, as opposed to the Midwest where we tend to let others tell us if we are making the world a better place. I am glad you are proud of what you do and happy in your work. A good thing.
I think if you want to make this a better place you have to think about it and check oneself as often as possible. The littlest things make the biggest difference (just like setting up a solid audio system).
I am not cocky, but I do think I am doing my part to make things better. Fighting here for the excluded is part of my efforts.
The term "audiophile" has it's use in certain applications. For me, I consider myself a music lover. That does not roll off the tongue as smoothly as "audiophile", does it?
brettmcee"I am not cocky, but I do think I am doing my part to make things better. Fighting here for the excluded is part of my efforts."
This makes no sense at all no one here is "excluded" this is an open, public, common forum where all are welcome to participate, post, and contribute as they see fit provided of course that they respect the rules of the forum.
We need to take back this beatiful word AUDIOPHILE away from the audio snobs, audio bullies, audio communists audio elitists and audio fascists audio aloofists and give it back to the true audio and music lovers rich modest or poor. It rightly belongs to us music lovers
Older vintage equipment even tho it sounds amazing is snubbed by the fake audiophiles as not high end enough or mediocre because it doesnt have 15-100k price tag on it and it isnt made by some no name guy who works out his garage
An Audiophile is someone that is seeking to achieve a sonically accurate live music listening experience from a recorded medium. This means that they are concerned with the way music is recorded, mixed, and transferred, the fidelity potential of the recorded medium, the capability of their equipment to process the recording, the ability of their speakers to replay convey the sound, and the setup of the listening environment to optimize the experience.
The success of the Audiophile in achieving this goal does NOT determine whether you can title yourself as an Audiophile. It is the level of effort, learning, experimentation and seriousness you are about achieving the nirvana of an accurately reproduced listening experience. Being a "successful" Audiophile is highly subjective - success should be measured by your level of satisfaction with your listening experience - success for you may be very different for me since my interpretation of live music experience may be very different from yours.
The monetary status premise is a RedHerring - If I use my large bank account to hire an engineer to put in the best audio system money can buy and show me which buttons to push to make it play music -- does this make me an Audiophile? I say NO. This makes me a music lover willing to spend as much as possible to get what someone tells me is the "best", but I'm not an Audiophile until I make the journey to understand how it all works and how to make it better.
So - An Audiophile is NOT anyone who loves audio, even though all Audiophiles love audio
And, the bank account size of those who build their system by hand with used or hand me down equipment or those that spend the most to hire the best engineers using the latest equipment to realize their vision has no bearing on being an Audiophile.
I'm routinely amazed at the super sounding low price gear coming from Schiit, NAD, Van Alstine, Elac, Zu, AudioEngine, Blue Jeans, Tekton, on and on. There's so many companies bringing excellent sound at working class prices, we should be grateful for that. Or at least give them a shot to earn your business.
It seems like back in the day, 70s? 80s? Great sound was indeed expensive, but there's no way that still applies. Ergo, assembling a sweet sounding rig has never been more affordable. No need for the big bucks.
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