I believe that all speaker manufacturers should supply impedance v -phase graphs with their speakers.
No one yet has done one to give a good indication of if a pair of Krell mono blocks are needed or they can be happily run from a 10w single ended tube amp.
So to suggest an amp without knowing impedance curve vs -phase curve would be purely a subjective opinion 50/50, or a dealers opinion, and we know they that can be questionable sometimes, depending on what they need to shift.
To be safe
if you must go with your few options, I go with the one with the most watt/current and I think that would be the John Curl Parasound A21
I second the Anthem STR recommendation.
AudioTroy will come in and say how much better the separates are. I disagree and think the STR is the far better value. I find the separates to be a little bright sounding in comparison to the STR.
consider the panel's suggestion on Anthem. I have heard the older separates with Paradigm and PSB loudspeakers. Last week I had the pure pleasure of auditioning the new STR Integrated (GoldenEar speakers).
I used Rock and Jazz cd/sacd(s) during the sessions. At $4499 MSRP, a steal!
The best part about the anthem is even alone it’s worth the money. When you factor in full blown stereo or dual mono bass management and some of the best most versatile room correction on the planet, it’s literally a steal.
Oh, not to mention the fact that it has home theater bypass.
there was a few things said about amp matching to the Persona line of speakers.. they're very revealing so you're going to want an amp that tilts on the warm side.. you're probably going to want to remove any silver in the speaker cables.. the Personas don't need any help from what silver brings to the table..
The Anthem STR appears to be a bargain-potent amp, good DAC, with ARC.
Are your STR integrated recommendations based on hearing them actually drive the Persona 3fs?
Also thanks OEM for the advice on cabling. Any specific cables you recommend, or “warm” amps?
I have extensive experience with the STR seperates and preamp on 3Fs. I’d say around 400 hours.
Don’t waste time or money worrying about cables now. Literally the least important aspect of a system, no matter what anyone on here says.
Contuzzi-How about the integrated? Thanks
Whoops-Think you answered that question earlier!
Contuzzi we have both the seperates as well as the integrated in the same room.
Like the integrated love the seperates.
We find the seperates to be warmer and more involving.
Perhaps the seperates were wired up with cheapie cables.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
We might be able to assist you directly we sell many of the major brands of electronics.
We sell the Anthem STR, the Antem STR Separates, T+A integrateds, Micromega, Naim, Electrcompaniet. NAD Masters, and we usually have a few trade in amplifiers around.
It will come down to sound and features. Not all of these make magic with the Personas.
Doesn’t your dealer also sell the Anthem STR products?
The Anthem, STR amp and preamp on good cables and power conditioning produced some of the best sound we have heard with the 3F. The seperates are easily worth the extra money over the STR integrared.
Personally I would take a T+A integrated over any thing other then the seperates but the R series costs $11,500 while the HV series costs $18k!
The STR integrated seems to be voiced differently, we dramatically prefered the Micromega M100 over the STR integrated with the 3F.
Cables do make a huge difference, Contuzzi isn’t right on that one.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
What interconnects would you use with the Anthem STR separates, and what speaker cables do you find to be synergistic with the Persona 3fs?
Our setup is with Wireworld Platinium or Gold int. We are using Wireworld Silver speaker cables.
Power conditioner Isotek or Audio Magic.
If you are ever in the NYC area please come over and hear our setup. We are remerchandising this sound room so we will have some demo cables if you need them at good prices
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
returntomusic OP38 posts
Georgehifi- not sure if this helps with impedance & phase angle question,
the L&R speakers in the link below are the Paradigm Persona 3f speakers-
Bit hard to tell without a complete overview of a impedance v phase graph, as they’ve only selected 3 different points to give in print, and those "could" be doctored/selected to look easy.
But with what there is to work with.
1: In the bass:
Impedance reaches a minimum of 4.42 ohms at 141 Hz and a phase angle of –60.68 degrees at 98 Hz. This could be seen as a potential problem for amps
by the amp, as a EPDR load of around 2.5ohm to 3ohms in the bass
2: In the Highs:
With 3.49 ohms at 16.1 kHz with phase angle of –53.22 degrees at 18khz this is a potential problem for amps, as it could equate to around an EPDR load as seen by the amp of around 2 to 2.5ohms in the highs
There’s nothing measured for midrange frequencies.
With what we’ve got here, because the 3f’s are 89db efficient, a 100w or higher amp into 8ohm will do. But it looks to me from the above measurements it’s a speaker that need a bit current also from the amp, that is solid state amps that can "almost" double their wattage from 8ohms to 4ohms to 2ohms would be great. EG: 100w 200w 400w. Even though they may work, I’d stay away from tubes with these, if you want the very best out of them.
Thanks George-helps narrow the field,
I'm using Audioquest's best all copper speaker cable, Oak .. this is my 1st all copper speaker cable so I can't really offer recommendations.. What I can say though is I was upgrading my components to try to get the most detail in the music.. I did very well but the problem is/was that it got so detailed , it became analytical.. I didn't like it.. At that point I was using silver plated copper speaker cables (litz) .. 2 things I did from there was replace the silver plated copper cable and inserted the Audioquest.. it seemed as though became "softer" but without losing the details.. 2nd I purchased some NOS Mullard tubes for my Oppo205 modded (Modwright) and now I'm much happier with the sound..
Paradigm Signature S2v3
love to try the new Persona bookshelf !!
hope this helps
OEM- I appreciate the specifics of your system & experience. I think it would be easy to slip into overly analytical detail with the 3fs.
I love Paradigm speakers, as I own a pair of Studio 100 Reference Series speakers that are great for acoustic music with brilliant highs and stunning mid-range. They lack lower range punch, but I don't listen to hard rock, disco, hip hop or rap music at all.
Paradigm is owned by Anthem, another Canadian manufacturer. If you are considering a lower price point integrated amp, try out the Anthem Integrated 225, which features 225 watts per channel of clean, clear sound. Pairing it with my Studio 100's really brought out the full dynamics of the speakers. And, it is built like a tank for under $1,000. Good luck with your search.
I am currently using PS Audio BHK 250s with the 3F's and they sound amazing. Probably the best amp I have owned. I had a pair of W4S SX 1000rs and they sound very good as well. I'm sure there are many others that would work great including the A21 or even the JC 1s.
It's funny I see the same guys always responding to the persona posts... Well I can say I've sold more Persona than anyone in the US and have set them up with everything you can think of. The Anthem STR series is by far the best bang for the buck complimentary amplifier/preamp/integrated you can match with the 3fs. I personally own the 7s , the center, and the sub, with the Persona Bs as my rears and can tell you they are absolutely amazing in every way... Persona rocks!
I took my LTA ZOTL40 MkII, source and cables in to a dealer to audition the Persona line (3F,5F,9H). Sure the ZOTL only puts out 40watts but it extracts phenomenal detail and low end from the Persona's. The entire staff at the dealer noticed and was stunned at the sound. I was there twice for 3 hrs each time and when I left they tell me they sorely missed my amp when doing customer demos with Anthem/Bryston gear. You can take my experience with a grain of salt, but IMO this amp is an endgame jewel.
From your other posts, it kind of looks like you moved up to the 5f & 9h fairly quickly (specifically the 9h- I envy your re$orce$).
Did you get a fair idea of how the 3f performed with the LTA?
They are really at the top of my budget.
Do you have any experience with the GE Triton Reference/LTA combo?
Appreciate your thoughts on the LTA amp-last hour I’ve been reading up on them-always thought David Berning is one of the true innovators of audio.
I will second the Anthem 225. At its price-point, tough to beat (no pun).
Gnason & jafant- thanks for the Anthem 225 recommendation. It would free up a good portion of my budget for power conditioning and cable upgrades.
Returntomusic: PLEASE spend that money on a better amp. First off, the 225 is discontinued. The new Anthem STR integrated is what you should be looking at (around double the price) as it is leaps and bounds better than the 225.
Also, some of the 225s had an issue where the volume would continue to ramp up rapidly after just tapping “volume up” on the remote once. Nothing scarier than having the run across your room to grab the volume knob to keep it from ramping up past what the speakers can handle and into distortion only to realize that doesn’t work, the power button doesn’t work, and you actually have to UNPLUG the unit to get it to stop. This happened on many units. Not worth the risk.
Either way, spend the extra money on a better amp (or a sub or pair of subs) rather than cables. You obviously believe in cables, and I know many people on here (especially the retailers and disguised industry folk) will disagree. A basic understanding of the way the human brain psychology works will make you realize you don’t need to waste money on them.
Regarding the I225, for your guidance, Anthem has a firmware update for what they call "Volumn Ramping". They can email any I225 owners a PDF file and it is easily updated through a Windows PC program.
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i may be blessed with either great ears, a high level of auditory discernment or just confirmation-bias/delusion. Regardless, nothing I have heard bests my LTA ZOTL40 amp. They can be purchased 'used' but you want the MKII ...and you can upgrade them to the newer spec tubes and capacitors. Without transformers in the design they are pure magic.
Anyhow ...i had about 90 minutes with the 3F’s and then similar time with the 5F’s. They were so different (the 5F’s being so much more ’open’ and revealing). I was surprised to learn that the two models share the exact same tweeter and mid (both fully enclosed BTW) and the only difference was the different woofer crossover freq /design/cabinet volume.
Similarly the stunning 9H has the exact same tweeter/mid configuration as the 3F/5F but sounds so much better still due to the improved woofer resolution below 500 hz. And I mean much so much better that having heard the 9H, i am now just saving my pennies to purchase a pair this spring. I’m 58 and this is an end-game setup for me.
If cost is your limitation - there is a great deal on a Persona-B bookshelf on ’canuckaudiomart’. With the cheap CDN$ you can probably drive to Toronto and acquire 90% of the 3F for a great deal.
Anyone has tried the Personas with Ayre Amps?
I heard the 3f's with new anthem gear yesterday and the demo was impressive, I have a little concern about the exaggerated bass output but I expect that was speaker design choice and had nothing to do with the amp.
The patch for the 225i has the unit shut itself off once the dial swings past 12 o'clock, it prevents disaster but still happened occasionally when I was turning up the volume by remote, still at current prices a great value.
@dmance I admire your courage in running the 3f and 5f on that very fine tube amp. I would be terrified that I would tempted to push the volume too high at some point and fry those beryllium drivers. The 9H is another kettle of fish and I would probably not be unnecessarily anxiety ridden using that amp to drive the 9Hs and I’m sure that setup sounds awesome. I’m evaluating the 9H right now and running them off a Pass Labs amp which does sound pretty sweet. When they were demoed the dealer was using the Anthem STR integrated to drive them first, then some Mac gear (not impressed there). They sound 100 times better in my room on my rig (Aesthetix pre / Pass power amp and a full loom of Synergistic Research cables throughout.