Amp vs preamp question

Question:
Where should more money be placed, into the preamp or the amp?

Preamp. hands down. Period.

that is not to say the amp is of no consequence. Not at all. I've found out personally, that if a chain of priorities is in place, the sound begins with the source. So the source should be as good a one as a person can afford. Following that philosophy, the preamp/controler should be on par or better than the source. This should, and I do mean should, keep the signal intefgrity on a very high level.

An amplifier that receives a fine signal will sound better than one which does not. To assist the amp in doing it's job, the front end needs to be as good as one can get and a little more... well, that's my approach anyhow.

the speakers and amp combo are about a matter all their own... and usually the speakers will narrow the field of amps best suited to them by their eff and impedance curves.

I've never heard great speakers sound great with the stuff in front of them being just so so. On the other hand, I've heard great sounds coming out of moderately priced speakers with great front ends.

It's all about the signal and keeping it as pure as is possible... as it gets magnified along the way.

A Friend of a friend of mine owns the 7 series Thiels, and has put in place several differring amps, as is my understanding. Krell, Ayre, BAT, and I think a Classe. I'm pretty sure a few Tube amps as well. Last I heard he liked both the BAT vk500 and an Ayre, (the model escapes me now).

I feel as I said above, the speakers will narrow the field by it's own demands.

Impedance curve, efficiency, and freq range. With thiels, I'd venture that SS power would be by far the safer bet for an amp with Theils in the picture. Overall.

There likely are tube amps which will satisfy too.... depending again, on what it is you are looking for ultimately.

The BAT vk51SE is a solid preamp. Great build and some flexibility, and great support. Lots of tubes though... but with SE & XLR output, that should allow a greater field of amps to select from. Keeping built in sysnergy in mind, a pretty safe bet I'd say would be to go BAT amp too.

Given BAT's rep for power resivoirs if a vk51 is likely to be your preamp choice, you could do worse than adding a BAT SS amp. I sure wish I had my VK 500 still.

Whatever the pick... good luck.

Perhaps the term “high” needs some definition… My vk5i total output imp was 800 ohms, 400 per phase… the vk32 has an output imp total of 600 and the Rex is 200 per phase or 400. .. I’m figuring the VK 51 is in there somewhere between 400 & 800 ohms total..

Unless I read an article reviewing the CJ 350 Premiere solid state amp in error, one of the two mainstays, either Mr. Conrad, or Mr. Johnson said a ratio of 10:1 is sufficient for preamp to amp matching. So if the preamp in question has an output imp of say 1000 ohms total, then the amps input imp needs to be 10,000 ohms or better…. Many amps, even the modest input impedances of Spectral amps, would meet that criteria.

My single ended thor output impedance is I think 400. it’s driven every amp I’ve connected to it with eease. 60wpc tube amps, 250wpc SS amps, 100 wpc SS etc… in to speakers with low impedances of 1.8 ohms, 4, 6, and 8ohms. With eff ratings from as low as 85 db!

So what’s a high impedance output for an active preamp??? 1100 ohms? 1500?

All the BAT amps I just looked at have input impedances of 90K +. Tube or SS.

I doubt seriously you’ll run into trouble in that preamp > amp, regard.

BTW none of the BAT amps double down in their power outputs… they just have enormous power reserves. Other’s use negative feedback to ehlp out there.

…and let’s face it… exactly when will one need to have an amp which produces 500 wpc… or 600, or 1000 wpc?

90% of the music is made in the first 20wpc anyways.

It will all come down to what your aim is for driving your loudspeakers. Wanna peel paint? Produce live rock and roll shows?

I’ve got a pair of 87db, 4 ohm speakers which drop to 2 ohms… I can run them easily with a pair of 120 wpc tube amps… very well….. or with a 150 wpc SS stereo amp too! Even with my SS HT receiver which questionably put out 110wpc!

Kevin Hayes of VAC told me once he runs many of his amps on a pair of Thiel 2.6s…. even his 30wpc SET amp! Check the specs on some of the VAC amps which are very well regarded, and you will notice they don’t double power with halved impedances.

This deal ain’t that hard. A quality amp will do well…. And here’s a thought…. Call thiel and ask them what amps on your short list they would recommend.

Tvad
.... it never ceases to amaze me how much minutia compells some folks.

naturally there is more to preamp matching to amplifiers than simple impedance figures.... and just 'whose' figures should we use? Those claimed by the makers, or those claimed by the second party testers?

But I still hold to the "plug one in" notion. Despite Tvads notes, he admits he did just that in practice... as he's 'plugged in' several lately by my count alone. Tubed and Solid state as well.

The numbers alone, don’t tell the whole story sometimes.

Damping too, along with power reservoirs/storage account for something too. But as so much inference was being placed on impedance matching I felt compelled to throw that CJ bit in . IMO it might ought to be 100:1…. But my exp says there are exceptions to this rule.

BTW consistency doesn't seem a commonality in Silverline products from time to time... apparently either.

it's all just time well wasted, casting about this rhetorical note and system building philosophy back and forth here... the proofs in the pudding... if it were otherwise... we'd all go out and get the exact right amp the very first time as we or some of us do ijn fact 'know' by the numbers only which amp will work best.

Right?

You ask 50 audiophiles a question, you’re very likely to get 55 answers!

it's not a numbers game folks. you have to try some out for yourself. that's what most folks here did and do... so I'll just hang onto the more practical approach of just bust a move and throw something in there!

Ledinhhien

Some amps will surely surprise you, and some will (as Tvad pointed out via his own exp) be disappointing... despite their reps and numbers.

Ask the maker of the ??? item for some direction. That's a gooder place to start IMHO.

Look at what others with similar speakers are using in the virtual systems listings.

I’ve found scant little if any, perfection in this world and attempting to acquire it is a waste of time and energy…. Most quality amps will be capable of providing a good power source and no one here can say for you, just what that should be… but you… well and your wallet.

I’m sure, given the expense of the CS3.7s, you’ll acquire a commensurate amp…. But going back to the initial Q… I’ll always put more money into a preamp than into an amp… as a rule ‘cause you can’t make up for what you lost early on, downstream. You can only cover it up.

Tvad

"Amp/speaker match is everything, IMO. That's my tune and I'm stickin' to it."

Now theres a real stretch.

So from this point going forward, you know exactly which amp, preamp, and loudspeakers to get simply from the numbers, huh?

Good for you.

Personally I feel there's more to it than simple claimed figures. They serve only as some sort of guideline and not the end all be all. That would make things far too simple.

...and simple is not the way of the audiophile! We're complicated folk.

Grant, I ain't taking you or any other party here to task... the deal however is always the same thing though. Eventually. Even with all the 'numbers' being in place in all areas, one still has other considerations. Style. Size. Price. One lump or two? and then there's that oh, yeah, sound aspect.

You and I both know now, that makers' specs are sometimes as subjective as are our own preffs. Now and then their figures get tweaked to be more attractive, or are figured out in differening ways.

True enough, by and large, their usually close to actual, though.

the numbers which matter most to me apart fomr the necessary ones, are size, weight, and price, and not always in that order.

Go by the numbers or go by your ears... I will always prefer the latter.

My name is blindjim.... and I approve this message.

Mapman
...agreed!

Tvad
...same here.