Yes, agree with Mazort and others. My stands are several types of construction, depending on the component. 6061 Aircraft alloy, tig welded (non Magnetic), filled with silica for the phono. Steel, Sound Anchors, with Simply Physics feet under stand, and McCormack and/or Walker spikes between the amp and top of stand (for amps). Hard rock maple butcher block platforms for the turntable, DVD player and power supplies for phono and preamp. Is it worth doing on your system? Depends on how high end you are at this point in the evolution. It can matter very little, or make the difference between "just good" and "excellent." As a friend of mine once said "It only costs 100% more to go first class." Sometime that is not a joke. If you need the "excellent" and you have done most of the other things right, it can be incredible what benefit a stand will provide. |
Nanderson, perhaps you live close enough to me to listen at my place. I can assure you that if you have not ever heard benefit from stands or other forms of isolation under amps, then you have an interesting experience ahead of you. In fact if you really believe your statement, and it is the result of testing on a sound system, then you have never heard a high quality system. In my system (and I believe, most other posters at this site) it is absolutely no problem to hear the difference between various materials, such as spikes, and in addition, there are several layers that can be inserted, I.E.: (Starting top to bottom) (1) Amp, (2) feet, (3) stand, (4) feet, (5) floor. In the text where I have inserted "feet" the material can be any one or multiples of the following: wood, carbon fiber, Sorbothane (Audioquest) Soft Shoes (McCormack), Delrin (Simply Physics), Valid Points (Walker), stainless steel spikes (various), air bladders (various), sand bags and/or sand trays, etc. ALL of these products sound different. Mind you, I would not argue about the outcome of testing these individual pieces in a system, because depending on the equipment involved, the construction of the floor, personal taste, etc., arguments would break out about which one is the winner. In any case, there is indeed a HUGE difference in stands and other coupling/ decoupling devices. The question is NOT whether these devices work or not, this is not an issue! The question is, which device works in the particular system that is being improved upon. |
Thank you Garfish, your response was excellent, I wish I had written it. The blind testing itself can become the object of the session, especially if the goal is to prove ones intellectual superiority. I personally am interested in learning from music, and that requires knowing exactly what is happening with all the components in the system, right down to the last piece of wire. If a tested component does not work, those of us who truly care about our systems ability to produce music do not need a double blind test to add to our problems. I for one admit that I have failed literally hundreds of times with changes in my system. However, I would not want to be in any doubt as to which of my actions were responsible for the failure. Additionally, blind tests put pressure on the listener to perform correctly in front of an audience. In fact, the listener literally becomes the object of the test, rather than listening to the quality of the music. To add to this misery, as simple a procedure as swapping a set of isolation feet under an amp will cause the interconnect and/or the speaker wire to be moved sufficiently to require additional break in time before the system returns to its original level of performance. The confusion of having to listen past this type of two fold obstacle is another factor that only long term, relaxed listening will cure, just as Garfish has already suggested we do. I agree, it's the only way I listen to music and the only way to decide on a change. |
Redkiwi, your point is well made. And your comments about the trade off's in equipment is exactly what long term listening is about. There is no perfect sound, no perfect equipment and certainly no perfect system. The whole point is to find a combination of pieces that work, and make you happy in the LONG TERM. Sometimes that means purchasing something expensive, sometime it is extremely inexpensive. Whatever the choice, common sense in selection will keep the decisions balanced between performance and investment. People that Nanderson describe that go overboard by getting themselves in trouble over the purchase of Hi Fi, "only to have to sell at tax time," would most likely fall prey to another addiction if not for this one. Perhaps it would be the next new hot car, that wonderful speed boat, or beautiful motorcycle. I would love to acquire some of those things myself. However, my only hobby is music, and the equipment required to reproduce it. I share it with my teen age son and my wife, and my investment is not only good from a financial point of view, it rewards our family with entertainment that keeps us at home, together, often with friends. If this is bad, then I wish I had more of the same, and had discovered it sooner. |
Redkiwi, I agree with your thoughts concerning the importance of speakers versus amps. And with Garfish's comments about the psychology of hearing. Although I have strong feelings about my personal choice in a speaker, your statement about the effect of a non musical amp are absolutely true in my experience. All of the variables in a complex system have to be addressed, and impossible to assess in a momentary blind comparison. In addition, Nanderson appears to have motives totally unrelated to enjoying music. Several of his postings contain comments that sound like the views of an investment broker. Perhaps with a eye toward the spending on music and equipment, when those dollars could be directed toward goals of financial freedom he speaks of. Would there be a commission involved? |
Redkiwi, I cannot really add to your comments, because you have stated it perfectly already. I can only relate my experience from my side. I have developed a knack of hearing a component, and then mentally being able to place it into a category of sound, and then when I hear a problem in a system, I attack the problem with a solution that I know will help. I realize this is not a very clear answer, but I originally got into the HI Fi business in 1966, when I was a kid. I have never lost interest since that day, and along with 13 years in retail high end sales, I served as a factory technical rep. for a time after that. All the experiences over the years has taught me that your hearing is much more important than any specification. I know you mentioned that fact in your posting, so I guess basically I am agreeing with you again. I know that every single piece of equipment has a sonic signature, so the trick is to isolate what that signature is, so that the next time you see or hear that piece, you know what it is doing. I am part of a group of about a dozen people, often when we test, we hear the same Hi Fi item in several places. Owing to the differences in the rooms and equipment at the other peoples homes, we all get a "snapshot" of the results in each situation. I know it's not very scientific, but I swear, I can almost tell what a system is going to sound like in advance, by looking at the room and the individual pieces. In the end, the only way to find out for sure what will work is by doing what is already posted. Spend long term listening to the music, enjoy it, try to understand what is irritating and what is good about each item in the system. And as far as isolation, it cannot "cure" a bad product, it can only improve upon it. As you say, a great amp stand can be a big asset if everything else is "ready" for that level of change. On the other hand, there are systems and rooms, where literally improving the isolation of the amp could actually result in worse sound. This happens when you uncover a flaw that was hiding a worse problem upstream, and then the amp stand gets the blame for the problem (Kind of like kicking the tires on a car because the engine won't run, when the problem is no fuel). Add to this problem, the room literally dictates what isolation pieces work. I have a pier and beam foundation with a VERY heavy granite floor. It is live, dense, and has a specific ring to it. Not a ring that is audible, but a ring that shows if the equipment is allowed to react with it. So, depending on the room, the isolation should?/could? be anything we have posted earlier on this site, from butcher block Maple shelves, to Sound Anchor stands to air platforms. Unfortunately, they all sound different, and some of these solve problems in one area, only to add a different anomaly in a different area. So, even with all the experience I have with equipment, my experience with rooms is much less. I have been in my home a long time, so I have a limited experience with isolation control in other situations, except for the friends homes I already mentioned. The other issue is understanding what is important to the listener. Often, what is annoying to you or I, may be the best sound someone else has ever heard. On that subject you can guess and fill in blanks forever and never know what or why we all hear differently, or perhaps it is only choices, because they prefer a different paths to their own ultimate sound. I can and will attempt to describe why I like certain products (there are actually quite a lot) that are all good. I have simply chosen the ones that suit me in particular and then I have "honed" them into position with tube choices, isolation and extremely tight electrical work on the listening room. Not to get off on that whole thing, but just a hint of what I mean, I have a dedicated transformer on the pole outside, I run 220 3 phase (commercial power in residential neighborhood) and have a 750 Amp drop, using triple double zero copper. Then I have 14 dedicated runs to the equipment with star grounding, and the (small amount) of digital is on one side of the power grid and the analog is on the other. All of this matters, how much depends on where the system is in its evolution. |
I Carl_eber takes a position about his amp..... is this an Amp Stand? |
Redkiwi, the dedicated transformer is a requirement for 220 three phase at 750 amps. The size of the wire in my drop is a requirement for the same reason. In my state, the power company is a public utility, and therefore must supply whatever service is required to support the needs of the specific customer. I simply had to prove my case to the management at the power company, that all of the equipment (audio and photo lighting) was sufficient to require what I requested. Second, your assessment about my reasoning is correct, I listen and apply what I learn. As you state, inductive reasoning would suggest that measurements prove that differences are only a placebo. That position can cause problems, as the reverse is often true. Many times in history, things that are real and true are not able to be proven by tests or measurements until much later. Many famous theories that seem ridiculous, and impossible to verify with that era's measurements, turn out the be proven only much later. It sometimes takes years for the measurement people to assign a "reason" that something "is." Until that time, specification nit pickers will unlikely come over to our side, until the numbers are there to comfort them. |
To Sol332. I do not know of an internet address to provide info on star grounding. The way I got there, I hired an electrical contractor who does quite a bit of work for Texas Instruments, Raytheon, and Bell Helicopter, and the wiring I was asking for was not unusual for computer rooms or assembly areas of defense suppliers. The star grounding is not strictly legal in my city, as the code requires that all the circuits be tied together at the electrical, and all the grounds be tied together. What I have actually exceeds the code, but does not "fit" the rules, therefore it is not easy to get it done. The short answer is that each circuit for the audio system must be in PVC, (because metal housings automatically connect the grounds together at the mounting flange). Then a separate ground must be run from the Hubbell computer grade outlet ( I choose TNN type wire), and then a star grounding system is run between three ground plains outside of the house. This triple ground plain is tied to a ground bar under the house, and all the separate TNN wire runs from the dedicated circuits are tied that single bar. This does not connect to the panel ground, or to any of the appliances or TV or air conditioning in the house, so the noise floor drops enormously, just due to the isolation. If you want to go as farther, have a separate eight gauge copper run pulled from the drop, and run that to a 100 amp 220 three phase panel, and from there you can run Hubbell twist lock 220 outlets to use with high end amps that are capable of running in either 220 or 110. The Hubbell can also be split to two 110, or run as a 220. My Tube Research GT 400 amps I ran until about a year ago were wired for 220, and were run on a special 220 twist lock AC cable Purist Audio built for me. One last thing, the reason I worked so hard for the 750 amp drop is the configuration of the electrical meter. The regular meter for a home is actually part of the electrical circuit. If you pull the meter from the box, the power goes off! This means that all that tiny wire and circuitry in the conventional meter is always in front of everything in your system. With a commercial 750 amp drop, the meter uses unbroken eight gauge copper rods for the pass through of the electricity, and the meter "clips on" the bars and reads like an Amprobe. The meter box has to have a special padlock, accessible only by the power company, because otherwise the owner could pull the meter and stop the billing process, without losing power. So, they are reluctant to do this. Hope this helps. I am willing to speak to any of you in person if need. |
