I'll try to remember to ask the Dali guys what they're using.
Dave |
I'll go by the Dali suite at RMAF to give them one more try. Maybe there was something about the room I heard them in. (That room works with lots of other speakers, but...)
Dave |
The Dalis demand a lot of power to control the bass. I'd be concerned about a tube amp having the desired muscle unless you spend big, big bucks.
I've heard them with about five different amps and the bass didn't really clean up until we got to around 200 watts into 8 ohms. The CJ CA200 mentioned earlier is one of the amps that it sounded pretty good with. It sounded even better with a couple of 500 watt amps (Rowlands). With a 100 wpc Primare the bass was loose and bloated.
Those speakers really need a few hundred hours to break in. The ribbon tweeter can be very unforgiving of less than stellar sources, etc. I'm afraid that when you opted for those speakers you upped the anti on the rest of your system.
Dave |
Damn, I hate stories about blowing drivers. That really surprises me because I was driving them with amps capable of 1000 watts into 4 ohms, with no problemo in a large, well damped room.
When you say "crazy loud" were you sitting there in front of them and actually listening when the driver crapped out?? You shouldn't be turning them way up and listening from another part of the house. You should be able to get 85+dB averages and peaks of say 105 or so without blowing things up. Compressed rock can be played over 90dB averages, generally without harm. Usually a speaker will blow because of a short with power on or underpowered clipping blowing the tweeters. I'm surprised that a speaker of this quality blew at any kind of level that you'd actually listen to.
Dave |
I've got a Conrad Johnson CA200 that I'm going to put up for sale in the next few days (trying figure out where I left the silly remote). Anyway, that'll work with you DALIs.
Still, I'm wondering about ATI incident. 20 feet away means you've got a large room. If you've got a lot of furniture, thick rugs, then you may be driving them too hard. You may need to consider something way more sensitive or move up a lot closer to the speakers. You might move them to the long wall and not sit so far away. That'll give you a wider image and get rid of side-wall reflections. A large room can suck up a ton of power. You might have had them running over 100dB average at 10-ft. That'll do in many speakers.
Dave |
Well the DALIs are a lot less sensitive and they DO need to break in a couple of hundred hours. Have you broken them in? Can you take them back?
I really don't like the bass on the DALIs. It really turns into one-note bass below 40hz. I don't know what music you're playing, but IME, they really have problems with a lot of low frequency music. Some people don't notice that, like Michael Fremer for instance, but it's a real problem with the music that I listen to. I didn't want to rain on your parade so I kept quiet, but you may be running into the limitations of these speakers.
Dave |
Sad to say, I couldn't find an amp that "fixed" the DALIs.
Dave |
Steidlguitars said:
"Similarly, not all speakers appeal to all listeners, like Dave and the Dalis. They are apparently not for him. They are, however, for others. Many others. Viva la difference."
I went to a lot of troubles to make the DALIs' bottom octave work and never found a solution. I really think that the speakers don't have it. OTOH, they have a lot of things going for them in the mids and highs. They're very seductive in that respect. I can see the attraction, but I also see the limitations. There a large number of less expensive speakers that get the bass better, IMHO.
Dave |
Bob said:
"These speakers, like all speakers, are a balanced compromise. That comprise will never please everyone."
Yes, but at this price point the compromise is larger than most of us suspect.
I've tried hard to figure out what was going wrong with these speakers when I listened. (We tried five differrent amps). I've relooked at Stereophile's measurements several times and don't see a culprit there. It must have been room interaction, but other speakers placed right next to the DALIs had no such problems. Others have reported similar problems with the DALIs, so the issue is not limited to room where I auditioned them.
So, maybe they're both amp sensitive and room sensitive.
Dave
Dave |
Dan001, you haven't mentioned a dealer yet. Did you buy the DALIs off A'gon or a dealer? If a dealer, then what amp was he using when you auditioned them? It might have been a smaller room than yours, but it would be a good starting point.
I really doubt that the Bel Canto will do any more for you.
One other thing, how far out are they into the room? They actually like to be relatively close to the rear wall, but away from the corners. You may find them best only one or two feet away from the back wall. You'll run into bass modes there, but if move them out a few inches at a time, listening to a recording with lots of bass AND a female vocal, then you can get that all in balance That close to the wall very small moves make a huge difference.
Dave |
Well, I've heard the very best Rowlands driving the DALIs and it didn't "fix" the problem. I'm told that the Bel Cantos have a little less bass, so that makes me doubtful.
The guy jumping to the 800s after only 50-hours seems like a sign to me. I think he heard the same thing that we're hearing.
Dave |
Whoa, Zear my friend, I have no agenda with the DALIs. When this thread started I thought the OP probably hadn't noticed the issue that I have with the 400s and so I didn't talk about the trouble I've seen with them handling deep bass (going into a one-note character). Only when it became apparent that he might be having the same issue as I did I bring up the issue.
My VAs are not "tiny" in comparison to the DALI H400s. Side-by-side they had much better bass extension and bass tonal character than the H400s. You'll never be able to buy great speakers if you keep shopping at Best Buy and purchase based on size instead of sound quality.
Dave |
Best Buy does NOT carry a full range of VA speakers. If you shop there you'll not be listening to their best.
Dave |
Can you cut and paste the part that signals to you that it's a mismatch for the Dali? I don't see that there.
Keep in mind, he was using the MBL speakers. I think that's the last set of speakers that you use as a reference for testing amps. The C-500 will be best with dynamic drivers that can use the power and present a nominal load from around 3 ohms to 10 ohms. The Dalis fit that general description.
I tried the Dalis with the Primare and the Conrad Johnson CA200 and had the same problems. The cabling was Cardas and Analysis Plus.
Tomorrow or Saturday I'll be listening to the Dalis in Dali's suite at RMAF. That'll likely clear up a few things. For some reason, they may be sensitive to amps and cables, so we'll get to listen through equipment that should be carefully matched (famous last words).
I'll report back soon.
Dave |
Mike60, which SS amp are you using?
Dave |
I tried them with Rowland, Primare and Conrad Johnson with either Cardas Golden Reference or Analysis Plus Solo Crystal Oval 8, so I don't think there was any problem there. I heard depth but no character. I don't understand how them room did this with the Dali, but not other speakers, but I'll try again. If Dali can't show them at their best, no one can.
Dave |
Mike, you're absolutely right about the Primare, at least the 100 wpc unit that I heard. With the Primare the bass was flabby and bloated. The amp clearly couldn't damp the mid and bass drivers.
The Rowland Continuum 500 and the C-J CA200 did a fine job of controlling the bass, but didn't bring out any richness in the bass. As you say, the bass was lifeless. What cable are you using?
One thing is clear, the 400 needs at least 200 watts and a high effective damping capacity. Many tube units are unlikely to provide the damping and control needed.
My guess is that Dali will have these kinks worked out in their RMAF suite. We shall see...
Dave |
Well, Dali didn't have a separate suite. I did listen again in the Soundings second room and noted the same bass problem I've heard before, using Rowland to drive.
Dave |
Sorry Mike. I really thought there'd be a Dali suite, with these things running to perfection. Instead, Dali was referring to Soundings' second suite. They were running it with a REL sub, which was turned off for my listen. I would have like my opinion to be "confirmed" with other associated equipment, selected by Dali, but such was not to be.
Dave |
