Am I going insane?

I am not what most of you would call an audiophile, although I do appreciate a nice soundstage. I figured this was a good place to ask my questions. First I want to give you my situation though...

Last year I bought the Sony 40"XBR. I love it. Now it's time to purchase a very modest sound system for HT and 2channel. I don't have ANY equipment yet. I do know that the speakers are the first, most important piece to aquire.

So, I was at a dealer last week. I was listening to the B&W CDM NT1 series in both 5.1 and 2 channel. The sound was clear and I was pretty impressed. This is the B&W series (at least retail) that is in my price range.
Then, the fella helping me switched to the Boston Acoustics VR-M60s, with the matching center and surrounds. I thought that the BAs sounded better...much better...more free, less boxy. Both sets were being played from a Yamaha reciever (not hifi to be sure, but I can't afford good components yet). AM I NUTS? Would seperates make this setup sound better? The room was setup nicely, at least as far as my limited experience can tell.

Since then I have listened to a PSB setup, but wasn't as impressed. I also teased myself with a BEAUFIFUL Sonus Faber setup that I might be albe to afford in about 1000 years. I am looking for other options, but am limited by around a $2000 budget for speakers. If I can get something used that is higher quality (but able to be pushed from a reciever for a while), I certainly will go that way. I read similar posts as this regarding Thiel 1.5s. I am searching for a place to hear these.

I have decided to go with the Velodyne SPL800 or SPL1000 sub, as I really liked how it dissapeared in the B&W and BA setups.

Please help a really green newbie who is trying to get some bang for bucks.

The terrible part of it is that you can already tell the difference in sound quality. A lot of beginners can't tell and can thus fool themselves for years that it doesn't matter. Since you CAN tell, just think about how you can get better sound for more money, if not immediately, then in three months when you've saved up a little more. You'll want to upgrade, again and again. You've got the whole world of high end in front of you to audition and eventually buy. This is the slippery slope. If you're not careful, you'll be in the loony bin with the rest of us.
Well, nobody can blame you for feeling crazy when it comes to hi-fi shopping. I have gone mad over many audio purchasing decisions, too many in fact :)

If I were you I'd check out the Jean Marie Reynaud Twinn MK II first, they far exceeded the performance of the B&W Natilus 805's that we had before the Reynauds. The Twinns are also a heck of alot more reasonable in price. Build quality is top notch as well.

Must you use a center channel? Just curious, also you may want to check into the smaller model Paradigm loudspeakers. They are very good performers, easily resold when its time to upgrade and are well built to boot :)

Good luck!

Thanks Chris. The center channel certainly is for video only, and I may purchase it at a later date. My main concern is for main monitors and the sub for starters.

I don't suppose you happen to know where in the Los Angeles area I could give the Jean Marie's a test drive?
No you are not insane...The answer is probably "Yamaha Receiver" or some other component in your system.

System matching always matters. The B&W's are fine. They most likely do a very good job of accurately reproducing the sound produced by the receiver and your other components. In other words, they just might be too good for your sources. The Boston Accoustics while very nice speakers could be masking some of the system's shortcomings, which is fine when taking the system as a whole.

I do find it interesting that a lot of people will praise or place blame on whatever specific component they are trying out; and never consider the other components in the signal chain.

There is a consumer review of the CDM-1 at, where the writer claims the bass on the CDM-1 is terrible. He was using home-made speaker stands made of wood and marble. Both of these materials resonate their own sound when they vibrate. But he blamed the bad sounds he heard on the speakers.

The important thing--the only really important thing--is to buy what you like. If you like the Bostons, then they are right for you. If you want to be sure, listen to them again with a different amp. But I doubt the amp is a major factor here, unless it was seriously underpowered and clipped into the less sensitive speakers (always a possibility).

Sounds to me like you're going about this the right way. Don't let anybody dissuade you.
You have a real advantage in that you are buying a receiver and speakers together. You should audition them that way as much as possible. Receivers from NAD and Rotel are in the same price range as Yamaha/Marantz/Denon's of the world, and are noticeably better (please ignore all power ratings, as they are truly irrelevant). The B&W's are probably revealing more of the Yamaha's limitations, and that's why, in part, you prefer the BA sound. With the Rotel, you might think the CDM's are better than the BA's. For the Yamaha, the BA's may be better, but don't eliminate the CDM's until you've swapped receivers.
Here we go...

The B&W faithful (is it a cult?) are gonna' come out of the woodwork and tell you that what you really heard was the speakers revealing how poor the rest of the upstream components were. If you were listening to the Nautilus series, I *might* entertain such explanations, but the CDM series, especially the new NT version, is designed to be used in such an application. Just because *some* B&Ws are truly high-end, doesn't mean that the whole line is that way. Come on.'re not crazy. One *brand* is not necessarily better than another (generalization). In your case, you got to hear two different speakers in the same room, using the same front end, etc. Plus, you got to hear them back to back. This is really the ideal way (next to in-home) to audition equipment. Just because BA doesn't have the snob appeal of some other brands doesnt' mean that they don't (or can't) make good products. PSB, Energy, NHT, Paradigm...even Boston Acoustics and Infinity (GASP) all make some pretty decent products at a very attractive price point. Phil Jones (of Acoustic Energy, Platinum Audio, Soliloquy and now AAD) was formerly the lead designer at Boston Acoustics. I say this only to illustrate that there are very capable engineers working for the big companies too. Contrary to popular belief, high dollar, boutique-style manufacturers do NOT have the corner on designing/engineering quality equipment.

Trust your ears. Don't trust ridiculous rhetoric. It's *you* who will be listening to (and hopefully enjoying) your new system. Have fun and take everything found in these forums with the proverbial grain of salt.
Z; insanity is part and parcel of this goofy affliction, so welcome aboard. I agree that speakers come first too-- because they are the most colored and most conspicuous part of your system, you need speakers that YOU can live with and that make you happy.

I am a very strong proponent of good source and amplification components too(and wires for that matter), But as everyone has to start somewhere it might just as well be speakers-- and I agree with Bomarc, you are on the right track. Go for the speakers first and get the ones you like best. You can up-grade other components as budget, knowledge and time allow. Cheers, and Good Luck. Craig
Z, I don't know if there is a JMR dealer in your area but if you can find a pair used that would be the best route. I think they retail for about $1k right now brand new and would be driven very well with your present Yamaha receiver.

Did you read the consumer reviews of the JMR Twinn Mk II at
B&W is British for Bose.
B&W cult? More like a bash B&W cult judging form other Agon theads. Almost every post mentions system synergy, not that B&W is better for all uses.

I owned a pair of Bostons for 11 years. They are actually an excellent choice for receiver based systems. B&Ws are not in most cases, except for maybe the 300 and 600 series. The impedence curve on many B&W speakers is more than most receivers can handle.

B&W's golden era was between 1985 and 1997. They are in some ways a victim of their own success. Some of their new designs are better for HT and not audio. They've also made some changes for production reasons to keep up with demand that have not helped in the musicality department. The original CDM-1 are better than the later SE and NT versions for 2 channel audio in my opinion.

The original post was "Am I insane" that the BA's sound better in my system. Still no, for all the reasons stated by everyone.

make sure your listening test are through and fair

Get music you know well
Get a variety of music: some good recordings, some bad as well as variety of music styles.

make sure the volume is the same loudness when moving from one to another because louder volume allways seems better (even to trained ears).

Make sure you listen ABA in other words the first speaker, the second the first one again. Do this AT LEAST once and more if possible on every piece of music.

Try and get in a longer session on both so you can tell if either of them give you fatige.

make sure you aren’t changing any components except the one your testing so the test is fair (preferably something near your system if you can’t do it in your house.

it helps if you are not rushed and can do the listening without pressure (in other words, send you wife out on a shopping spree. This will cost a couple of bucks, but it will be well worth the effort. You will listen comfortably and your wife will like you, and your hobby, better.

After you feel you have done your homework, buy what you like best regardless of name or price (within your budget of course).

happy listening,
No! Actually I like the Boston Accoustics. I still own a Boston Accoustics T830, which was my first real speaker. That was about 11 years ago. I currently own the B&W CDM1SE and Matin Logan Ascents, and recently sold a pair of ProAC 3.8's and have owned Mirage M3si's and B&W N805's. It's all a matter of preference. So I've played around with different brands. I've heard less expensive speakers that sounded better to me.

Now here's the thing to keep in mind. Many of the mass market speakers like Bostons tend to be on the brighter side. A little exaggerated in treble and some cases bass. This makes them sound good in demos. It's like turning the treble & bass all the way up in your car stereo. After a while, this may lead to listener fatigue and a lower enjoyment of the music. These qualitied may be desirable for some people in an HT setting. So you hae to pick what you like!

I would strongly suggest purchasing used from A'gon. How much was the Yamaha receiver? For around $1,000 you could buy a Pre/pro and very good 5 channel amp from Adcom, Rotel, B&K, or Acurus to name a few. As far as speakers, shop around some more. If you like the BA's try the B&W 602S2. They sell used for $400. I find speaker a very personal choice. If you shop around you'll find one that you'll prefer over the BA's However, with used speakers from higher end manufacturers like B&W, Proac, Dynaudio, and the list goes on, you won't lose alot when you resell them. Then you can continue to upgrade and enjoy this fun (or sick) hobby of ours. I'm confident that the CDM1Se's that I purchases a year ago would still sell for the same price today on A'gon and I did not lose alot selling my ProAc's. You couldn't go to Best Buy buy a pair of speakers and sell them a year later for 40% of the cost. Good luck to you.

If you are willing to be patient then keep your eye out for a pair of Linn Ninka's. They go for around $1000 used and sound incredible. They are perfect for future upgrading because if you stay with Linn amplifiers you can eventually go "active". This makes a pair of $1700 speakers sound like $3000+. In addition, the company has strong research/development roots and they make very nice products that withstand the test of time. I also agree with other members about going for Rotel, NAD, HK, for receivers instead of Yamaha, Sony, Pioneer, etc. Good Luck!
Thanks to all who have replied, and are yet to do so!

So, I am almost convinced to find a decent pre/pro and amp instead of a reciever. I would like to get a pre/pro capable of DTS, and am definitly going to have to buy used. For starters, I am thinking of the pre/pro and a good 2channel amp, adding a 3channel later for center and surrounds.

So I guess along with my request for speakers to listen to, I am also asking what would be a good pre/pro +2channel amp combo for around $1000 used, that would also allow me to add another 3channel amp later for HT?

When I told my wife that would like to buy a nice sounding audio setup to go with the new TV, she first said..."Zach, what's an 'audio setup'? That sounds expensive!. I know how you are!' was the line I many of you have heard something like this, I can only imagine.

So thanks again for helping me down the right path. I'm sure I will appreciate it when I'm listening to whatever it is I end up with!

A speaker worth checking out if you can find a dealer is the new POLK LSI line. I prefer the LSI7 (smaller bookshelf) to the CDM 1NT and it can be purchased much cheaper as can the bigger LSI9 bookshelf. This is based on many listening sessions with the B&W at different show rooms. To my ear the Polk's sound better. They are smooth, not the least bit bright which is a plus when running on a receiver. I'm using a Denon receiver and they sound great together. They seem to be very musical speakers and sound great with movies.

May be worth a listen....
I don't normally join in these sorts of discussions when all the good advice has already been given, but I wanted to second P mmk's post about brightness. It may be an assumption of course that the Boston's are brighter in sound than the B&W's, but if it is true, then the advice is something I have defintely experienced - - the demo sounds good, and then even after you get it home for a while, but after a time you start craving less "sheen" or even harshness and more accuracy/mellowness, which in my opinion usually means more realistic. Also, Jameswei's post is also excellent advice - watch out, you may start wanting to upgrade constantly. The only way out is to buy either the cheapest thing out there (of the decent equipment) and be content knowing it sounds pretty good for pretty cheap, or buy the best you can't afford (credit!) that you won't be able to upgrade for a long time!
That's it, as always though, have fun.
I LOVE hearing direct comparisons made between B&W and Polk. ;-)
JMR dealer in LA area ?
Try Top Audio, Wesminster, corner of Magnolia and Bolsa, next to Bank of America office.
You can find there Paradigm, Totem...
Thanks tqn. I am headed down to Huntington Beach this Sunday for Mother's Day. Wonder how hard it will be to slip out for a bit! ha! Laugh!

Neubilder: I agree that it is good to see B&W being compared to BOSE! I think that people who poo-poo a model based on its manufacturer should have a reality check.
(But I have never heard anything from Bose I could stand.) On the other hand, I loved my B&W DM 7's.

NAIM, KRELL, LINN... etc. have cult followings like B&W. I have heard fantastic sound from all of these manufacturers. I have also heard crap.

A good example of my point can be made with cars....
A VW owner who is into his car is kind of like a cult member who thinks anything B&W makes is king.
Ahh the wonderful 1976-1986 Rabbit/Jetta. Good car if you like to tighten the alternator belt every 5,000 miles, have chronic fuel injection issues and eventual electrical smoke from the dash.
But lord help you if you point that out to a VW nut.
The same is true for the "Nameplate followers" in audio.............
McInto$h... I think would have to be the best example. Rich guy who knows nothing goes in and buys "the best" HA!

There are certainly past models made by Mirage..even Energy (remember those?) that blew away models by B&W. Yet people would leave the shop with an overpriced set of B&W's totally based on "snob appeal". BAH HUMBUG.

Remember when SOTA was a big thing? Oy-Vey. Give me the cheap little Planar 3 ANYDAY! But, there were a ton of people out there that would fight you to the death because of the name. Hey, they cost they must be better, right?

I would like to see people not pay any attention to the name plate affixed to audio gear. Find what you like. Ignore the name, concentrate on the model you are listening to.

Zstokes: I agree with people telling you to trust your ears, while knowing that the sound that is intially impressive for the first half hour...can grate on you later. Make sure you have played a wide range of recordings you like on the speakers/amp(s) and be certain that you bring a few of your favorite movies as well. If the salesman does not want to spend an hour or two letting you play..then find a new salesman.

I recently heard an Atlantic Tech. Flagship setup with 9,000.00 just in speakers. The same ones that they have at the Lucasfilm ranch.... They S-U-C-K-E-D! I thought it was the setup, so I went to another shop offering the same speakers with a totally different front end..(to the tune of about 30k worth of gear)..once again, they S-U-C-K-E-D!In fact, my buddies little Mirage set up, with less than 2,750.00 into the whole thing (including the 349.00 JVC that drove them), blew the AT's away without question (to my ears).

If there is one golden chunk of advice I could give someone looking for a system, it would be to trust thier ears, not thier eyes or salesman!

It is a sad fact that so many people spend thousands of dollars after reading a few reviews..(you think all that crap is for real? Or that the reviewer isn't worried about losing the ad $$$ from a manufacturer?)
True good sound, regardless of your budget, requires many hours of research and many hours of listening. The ultimate judge being your ears.
amen, preach on brother Gumb

brother Tuna
Gumby, I agree with you on most counts - even though I am a devout VW freak as well as a Linn freak. But not blindly so - and I continually re-evaluate my commitment to these brands. I agree that a companies ‘badge’ is only an indication of the products they produce. But as in the tradition of trademarks, craftsman’s guilds, etc, it can also represent a commitment to quality - as long as the company hasn’t sold out. My Jetta Diesel has taken me across the N. American continent twice, up and down the West Coast, East Coast, hell, my VW has taken me to almost every interesting city on the continent. It cost me 120$ in fuel plus 1Litre of oil to drive clear across N.A.- from Vancouver to NYC - 6000km!. I paid 2K for the blessed thing - and its still going strong 5 years later! (knock on wood) The amount I spend on my car every month including all maintenance, fuel, and original purchase price is 35% of what the average person spends on leasing some tacky GM, Nissan, etc. And it’s fun to drive! Fahrvergnuegen – everything is designed as it should be and operates for the experience of driving. I’m not saying it’s a high performance race car – but I don’t want a race car. I want good, basic, well designed, comfortable transportation, that is as high-performance as is logically possible given it’s intended function. I would drive my 86 jetta over ANY new american car in a second! After getting out of an american rental car, or a friend’s car, (Intrepid, Cavalier) - if I haven’t cut myself trying to put the key in the ignition, poked my eye out on the corner of the door getting out, or bruised my knees on the crappy gizmos sticking out all over the place, I am always relieved getting back into my VW. The new generations of VW’s are even better in some ways that the series II, and VW is now encroaching on BMW’s market share because they are so damn good. -
- …..Back to hi-fi. I started out (and still am) a Rega, Castle, Cyrus, Rotel fan. Then I listened to, and bought a used Majik. One step at a time Linn has won me over. The stuff sounds better to me than anything by any other brand that I could possibly afford, it is simple, elegant, discreet looking, it doesn’t subscribe to the hi-fi voodoo school of thought, (though some Linnies may), they don’t change their line-up with the seasons, it holds it’s value…In short, Linn (Clydebuilt) represents what the old school meaning of brand meant – in every respect – even down to the quality of the working environment of their employees. And the fact that they built their factory on reclaimed toxic wasteland that, thanks to Linn, has been restored back to forest and is the setting of thier tasty Richard Rogers(architect) designed factory, attests to this in the most convincing way.
I better get back to work, I've procrastinated long enough. But one last thing, If it’s not Scottish, it’s crap!
- Just kidding , but I thinks pretty funny.
you said, "If it’s not Scottish, it’s crap!" if that is so, your VW is crap, right?...just a thought

by the way, I owned one of those VW Rabbit's referred to above and had exactly those problems...but no others. When it came time to trade the car in (about 80k) because it was "time" for my wife and I to buy our first car as a married couple - plus we were frustrated with the hundreds of dollars worth of maint - we gave the car to my brother-in-law who was handy and needed wheels. He drove the car well past 250k...even with the down time it was a great car and overall was inexpensive (compared to my current Olds and my last Plymouth)
I’ve got other VW Bug stories but that will have to wait for another day, lets just say VW, normally, makes a car for the long haul and their engines are nearly indistructable.

A name CAN mean quality but a name does not ensure quality - usually (exceptions: Rolls Royce - do you think it could be bad? Bose - do you think it could be good :) just kidding - Bose must be good at or for something...let me think? hmmm? Oh yea, most of them are small!

What Bose is good at is making products that appeal to non-audiophiles--which, if you think about it, is very smart business. Yes, their speakers are small (to appeal to people who have other priorities besides sound), and that Bose sound does jump out at you--very impressive unless you realize how unrealistic it is.

There's an undercurrent of snobbery here that doesn't speak well for audiophiles in general. And I wonder if sometimes it's a substitute for actual experience. How many audiophiles who believe that the mass-market companies cannot compete with the high-end "names" on sound quality have ever done side-by-side comparisons of, say, Denon and Rotel? Or are we just repeating a received wisdom that happens to confirm our own brand loyalties?
Bose is at very good at one thing for sure - marketing. They fully understaznd their market segment (heck, they created it) and they are very good at servicing it. None of us may be in it, and i'm sure they are losing untold seconds of sleep over it. Anyway, before this becomes another tiresome Bose-bashing thread ...

Are you really in this for the music or the movies? If it's movies, I'm afraid I would have to beg to differ with the prevailing sentiment here and say that a decent modern receiver (say a Newcastle, Nakamichi, NAD, Marantz, etc) will get you much more quickly and cheaply into a very nice movie experience, and a quite adequate music experience, until you can afford to add a separate 2-ch preamp (with receiver still used in surround processor loop) and a high quality 2-ch amp for the mains. I'm not convinced that a $1000 used pre/pro and amp will be of that much better quality than one of these receivers, especially if you buy one of them used.

I am actually trying to get a system that is little more centered on music, hence the main monitors, sub and electronics first. I am going to try to pick some speakers and a pre/pro that will give the ability to do Digital Dolby/DTS if not great, at least well.

I think I have narrowed my pre/pro & amp choice down to somthing like the Rotel RTC965 & RB1070 or RB1080m OR, a B&K Ref20 or Acurus ACT-3 with a yet to be determined amp. Now, I want to stess that I haven't listened to anything yet, and I am going to 'shop around' for at least another month before I buy anything (unless I find speakers I fall in love with). Anyway, do the above choices make any sense for a newbie, sound first but HT compatible system? I know the electronics also kinda hinge upon the speakers, but I am looking for ballpark opinions here...

Thanks again for all your opinions. I really appreciate your time spent thinking and typeing. I really don't think I could do this without all of your help.

I have to agree with Inscrutable here. I would not rule out a very nice receiver in your search. Pre/pro is a nice way to go too, but I would hazard to guess that you could to MUCH better by purchasing a high quality receiver (NAD, Marantz, Onkyo Integra, Rotel) on the used market and use the money that you saved on better speakers (also used).

Many posters here will instantly discredit mass market gear w/o having ever even heard it. Contrary to popular belief, some of the mass marketers (including Denon and even Sony - ES) do make some very nice gear. It's not all crap. Don't get caught up in the name game.

Anecdotal story: My father has gotten off of the Audiophile Merry-Go-Round and has been using the same gear for a good number of years. Prior to quitting the hobby, he had gotten into home theater (ProLogic!!). He has since parted with all of the surround speakers but kept his Onkyo Integra Pro series receiver. He uses it in two channel mode and, honestly, it sounds terrific. He's driving a pair of old Thiel 3.5s (not an easy load) and it really does a nice job. The point here is that many of the elitists on this site would laugh (literally) at the thought of using a ProLogic receiver to anchor an "audiophile" music system. He would have to spend A LOT of money to do appreciably better.

It's easy to get caught up in the hysteria and lose sight of your goal and objectivity. Take your time, leave your preconceptions (misconceptions?) aside and keep your focus. Who knows...? When it's all said and done, you may not even have a single "audiophile" component in your system....and that's not necessarily a bad thing :-)

I have finally heard a small satellite-sub system worh reccomending. The Accousitc Energy Aego system was surprising musical and satisfying. I have heard the 2 channel setup and have successfully recommended it to aspiring audiophiles.

The supplier has been so successful that they are introducing a 5 channel home theater rig with all the amps and a processor built into the subs...plug in your source and you're done. If it sounds anything like the 2 channel gear I may FINALLY dip my toes in the revolting(to me) home theater pond.

Also, for what its worth, "The Absolute Sound" pretty much loved them in a review earlier this year.

Trust your ears


I listed to the Bostons today at another dealer. They were not setup in a listening room like the first time, and were being pushed by a Parasound amp. Needless to say, they sounded much different. Not nearly as cozy as the little room the first time.

I next went to another place, and listened to the Thiel 1.6s. These sounded much, much better than the Bostons. I expected as much, but not to the level of better that they were....I would absolutly spend twice the money on these.

I listened to these again though, in a much smaller room than what I would be placing them in. You see, my living room connects with my dining area (3 steps up), that is directly below my loft. 20ft ceiling at it's highest point. Am I screwed?

Anyway, I really like the Thiels. I have a few more auditions to go through, but these are definitly tops on the list now. I have no idea what I need to drive them, but I will ask those questions when I have made a decision.

Good Evening!
The Theils will do just fine in your home. Ask the dealer if you can bring them home and it will settle it for you. They will probably lend you the electronics needed too.

I have had the 1.5s in my 11 x 19.5 x 8 which opens into my dinning room. No loft ceiling but this shouldn't hurt anything. I really loved the Thiels, they are a truely great speaker and if the the new 1.6s follow suit, and I have heard they do, then you are buying a truely elegant speaker.

Lots of choices in the 2k range new and even more used. However with the Theils, as with a number of others, you will be proud and happy. Plus these have a very high wife factor. You will of course need a sub for home theater but that will always be true.

If you want music first and video second then I recommend you look to a sub that is better known for music then movies. Rel is my favorite, kinda expensive but no better build quality and they are made specifically for music.

happy listening,

I listened to the speakers I will be buying today...

JMLabs Cobalt 826s. I listened to them being pushed from a Denon reciever, and everything was good. These speakers are so efficient, I can run them (quite well) from a reciever.

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who posted, and I will let know know when I make the purchase!

Glad you found something you really like. I heard a Nak AV10 drive either these or the 816's (can't quite remember) fine as well. They *do* have impedance dips down around 3 ohms I think, but I can't recall at what frequencies ... *might* be covered by the sub ... but most decently powered receivers should handle it ok. Enjoy!
Oh come on, Nue:.....ANY american car??
Also, I said Rabbit/Jetta, not Diesel. The diesels, while still having the electrical issues to a lesser degree, were pretty awesome (though totally gutless) little vehicles.
(Also you should know I have owned 5 of them through the years.) But if you want a REAL diesel, 1984 Camry Turbo-D :)
Same mileage, MUCH more guts and a whole lot bigger. (I sadly had to part with mine @ 200k plus....and it still had no blow-by. (Pull the oil breather off your rabbits valve cover while it will be little run-away..if it has 160k or better, it must hav happned to you at least once or twice (<:)

Zstokes: Your post made me start looking for a dealer to check those JMLabs out. I thank YOU for all the info here!!!!
David Byrne said "The last good looking American car was made in (circa) 1962" - and I completely agree. But as good looking as they were back then, American cars were still behemoths.
I seriously can't think of one American car that I wouldn't trade in for a TDI as soon as it was in my possession. I like small efficient well designed things. I would love the additional power that the new TDI offers over the 54(!) hp that my Jetta has, but they managed to achieve that extra power with no sacrifice to efficiency.
By contrast every American car I can think of either:

1/ looks and drives like fridge,

2/ is a tacky, unrefined, overpowered, and under-controlled "sports car".

3/ is an (fn)S.U.V. or some sort of truck - most of which I would like to see get taxed off the road - unless they are being used for a legitimate purpose (delivery, trades etc.). (and no, having an SUV so that little Johnny is safe -because your vehicle is so big you can cream the other guy in an accident - doesn't count as a "legitimate purpose").

What does this have to do with HiFi? Nothing really I suppose. After all, Krells and Levinsons are fairly benign, just don’t drop one on your toe.

What are impedence drops? And, I am planning on running a sub (actually the dealer suggested Earthquake, but I thought the little Velodyne sounded pretty good, and it would mostly be used for movies anyway).

Please don't tell me this is somthing serious to be concerned with....I really liked these!

In simple terms the resistance of the speakers may be a nominal 8 ohms, but the actual impedance and phase angle change over the frequency spectrum. Lower impedances will demand more power/current from the amp. If you listen at sane levels with a reasonably well built receiver/amp, and the extreme is not too low, you'll be fine. You should notice distortion or overheating as symptoms before anything is damaged.
Neubilder, don't sell yourself short. Automotive/audio analogies are legion. Isn't a Krell 600 just a Viper without wheels (although the 600 should come with wheels, as it's too heavy to pick up)? No other culture could produce these two products; they are both perfectly American (huge, consumptive, powerful, clumsy at times and lacking finesse). But with audio, we get to be multicultural: Brits too laid back for you? Then add an American amp. French too romantic? Add a Danish speaker. My own system is Brit/French Canadian/American. Diversity gives a hifi (society?) balance and synergy that could not occur if it were mono-cultural. Ahh, the many things I've learned in my music room.
What about German products... definite correlation b/ween some of their cars & audio equip. Heavy engineering, tight tolerances, look "authoritative" and built like a tank, go fast; Symphonic Line: MBenz or Audi, Burmester: BMW, Acapella: ? (audi TT?), the speaker guys with the gas tweeter:?... etc.
Speaking of heavy, there used to be a big Gryphon that probably weighed well over 200 pounds / a S-Line too (they came in twos). The Gryphon looked better than the S-L. Neither looked very fragile.
I just took my home theatre and hooked it to that Suburban on . It sounds a lot better than when I had it hooked to my Onan diesel.

Nuebilder:Watch out for my big van man, (said like the Arnold S.) "I will crush you like a bug" :>)

What is your Linn setup by the way?
Been having some interesting email conversations that just may have me taking an old SOTA to play with....
Gumby, that's the very one that I saw the devil driving around in the other day. I love the row of guages on the bar that helps to obscure things like pedestrians, motorcycles, other cars, etc. Heck, all those bumpy guages and other crap in your peripheral vision look just like a dear on the highway or an old lady crossing the street. But who cares! - cause they'd never ding the 3" of steel in the front of that thing anyhow! HaHa (cry)!

- I saw a Sota tt in HiFi+ a few months ago - it had the same arm as my Rega P2 and cost 10x more but damn that thing was beautiful. Apparently it sounded excellent too. If you can get it for a good price why not. My Linn system consists of a Karik III - (that I just bought used to replace my Mimik - but it's at linn right now getting serviced), Rega P2, Wakanda/Kudos module, 2 x LK 140 aktiv, Keilidh. I am also building a pair of Kabers using the leftovers from upgrades. Thay have the 3 bar ceramic tweeters and the most recent version of the Kaber mid/bass drivers. The cabinets are similar to the Audio Physic Tempo 3 with the 5 degree tilt. I haven't heard them with anything other than a cheap CD player and amp because I haven't wanted to take apart my active system - at least not until I get my Karik back and can hear them at their best. That project fulfills my need to tweak with things - and learn a lot about acoustics etc.
B&W sound is very simular in Bose sound. Both will continue to be the 2 top selling speakers.????? The public loves big commercial names. I don't care what the name of the speaker is, just make sure it contains superior drivers. Skaaning Seas Scan-Speak Philips Hiquaphon Raven ESg Accuton, a few others like Focal PHL Peerless. These are tried and proven. I have the B&W 602's because my wife wanted them. Fatiguing is the ONLY word to describe them. Seems some of the "new" concept speakers with more than 3 drivers are making a come-back from the mid 70's. Fashion always comes back around. Funny shapes to a speaker brings up a RED FLAG. As well i'm NOT impressed with a speakers price tag. Any lab making a whole bunch of models becomes questionable.
Nuey my dear.........
That Suburban has more visibility than your Jetta ever thought of having!

Obscured vision my butt ;>)

You dont need to see anything but what is in front of you when you are doing 130 MPH anyway. Ahhh, all that fossil fuel being burned........smells like victory :>)

Long live large Detroit iron!

There, that should keep you happy for a while. Just your kind of thing. Gutless and practical?? Hmmmmmm

The 'Burban will pick both vehicles out of its grill with a piece of spring stock when it gets home :>) hehehe

I am not gonna pay for one. I did not like it I am gonna take one for a whle. I think it is the star ???
Tweeker, give the B&W 800S (well driven) a go. You may be be surprised at the sound quality!
(Of course, if you add the cost of the spekears to the cost of the amplification required to make them chirp, you go a long way; hardly a commercial product!)