There is no cheap way out for an effective plinth. It took many hours to develop Albert's plinths and so far many, many months of listening. The first plinth made from Baltic birch was very good and in it the SP-10 MkII trounced the Walker, using identical cartridges. The first Panzerholz plinths were actually made for the Garrard 301 and made mincemeat of the $500 built-up plywood ones from Europe. The single arm Panzerholz plinth for the SP10 was a significant improvement over the layered plywood version and the new two arm version, with its higher mass offered even more improvement, especially in the midrange. Panzerholz is frighteningly expensive and Albert's plinths are very labor intensive to fabricate, so the prices are at a place where very little profit is made. There are very few audio products out there where the cost of the raw materials represent one third of the retail price. The opinions on the effectiveness of these plinths aren't Albert's alone. There are at least twenty longtime and highly critical analog fanatics in his group whose opinions helped shape the design over the last three years.
John |
Nandric, I understand that. I am a person of less than modest means myself. My point is that the creation of an effective plinth is more than just the application of idle woo. There is a lot of work involved and for Raul to casually dismiss it as worthless is unfair to everyone involved. He certainly hasn't tried Albert's plinth so his opinion of it is of no value itself.
John |
that test IMHO was invalid because there were at least 2-3 different parameters that had influence in the quality performance that preclude a precise answers: different tonearm, different arm board and different tonearm wire. Be that as is may, the differences in pace and tracking as well as noise are more attributable to plinth and turntable motor than to the above mentioned. The Walker is sold as a (very expensive) complete package and is therefore destined to go up against other packages as is; so no excuses there. The Walker is a great performer and no doubt many others prefer it to anything else. It was a great shock to find that the humble Technics was preferred by us, especially after a long romantic relationship with the Proscenium. john |
In our case, the power of the direct drive motor made a big difference in keeping up with dynamic passages on certain records. The superiority in that regard was very evident. The background was blacker with the Technics even though most consider belt-drives to be quieter. The Walker got the benefit of the doubt being provided with the better cable of the two. The bass was more solid and better defined with the Technics as well. In what area did we feel that the Walker was superior to the Technics? None - hence the word trounce. Please note that we are talking about preference, just as we prefer the Allnic phono stage to the J&R solid state phono stage.
You may hold differences in preferences but that is no reason to resort to ad hominem attacks.
John |
I don't even think it would be correct to deduce that the drive systems (DD vs belt) made the most difference in the test. It would be reasonable, however. There is a great deal to be said for tight control of the platter's rotational velocity during difficult and dynamic passages. Many in our group promptly traded in their high end belt drives (Basis, VPI, etc.) for the Technics/heavy plinth combination and were rewarded with similar satisfying results. The resurgence in popularity of vintage direct drives is in no small way related to their performance in this regard. John |
The Panzerholz plinths sold by Albert are designed strictly to damp vibration from the cogging action of the powerful DC mother which by necessity is in communion with the platter and the rest of the chassis. In no way is there a claim that it will isolate the cartridge from vibration external to the turntable. The designer has no control over external forces and the plinth is designed to give the user a compact and self contained (as well as aesthetically pleasing) solution to the problem of noise intrinsic to the motor itself without him having to resort to the aggravating hair-shirt method of placing the armboard in a physically detached position from the rest of the turntable.
John |
Perhaps trounced was too harsh a word, but in fact the Technics won out. The judgement and final conclusion were made after many weeks of care listening, discussion, and evaluation by a diverse group of individuals, not a weak one in the bunch who is prone to be swayed by group opinion. Many different kinds of records and music were auditioned, audiophile quality or not, from old blues recordings from the early fifties to the latest release of high quality recordings of Baroque and classical music. No opinions were formed on the basis of listening a single favorite track from the latest Janis Ian release. No one in our group "works the room" to extract an opinion from someone else that is in agreement with their own. Certainly Albert, above all, seeks comment and opinion from his friends to help clarify what exactly is happening with his system.
The original poster wanted to know what opinion people had of the Porter Panzerholz plinth and that is what he got from me.
John |
As an example, we played a Bill Evans Lp that always sounded fabulous with the Walker. But when played on the Technics, a particularly complex and dynamic passage from the piano was suddenly controlled and articulate rather than muddy and garbled. So a heretofore unknown fault inherent to a belt drive turntable became apparent. This was no small, subtle difference. In fact, it was in a way embarrassing that we would think that up until that point everything was fine and wonderful when instead it was flawed. How were we to know that Evans was playing it one way and not the other?
Certainly the overall sound of a system is a product of personal preference, but in this case (among others) the better performing turntable was obvious.
John |
Also my understanding of the panzerholz material used in Albert's plinths is that it is very rigid but lower mass than comparable standard wood materials, so I'm not sure that adds up either. The Panzerholz used in Albert's plinth is very dense. It is made up of European red beech plies compressed under high pressure into a sheet about 1 1/4" thick. It's density is on the order of 85 lbs./cubic ft., which makes it heavier than than all but the densest exotic hardwoods. John |
Aren't the two tables best optimized with different tonearm, and cartridge plus also set up and calibrated differently? Any combo of these could account for a difference. Not to mention dirt accumulated on the stylus, etc. It's not as though we weren't aware of any of those variables. Everything was checked and rechecked with the same result. What I am describing was a the result of the platter being unable to maintain angular velocity which would have been well known to a turntable designer or other expert but not to us at the time. Live and learn. II have a training that permit to know in " hours " what you could take " many months ". I already explained this to you in other thread even you " live " how fast I can detect " errors " or virtues due to that specific training. Well, if I had only known this beforehand. I am now bowing from the knees. John |
On the MkIII, the Cu-180 mat isn't a problem. It's a bit iffy on the MkII, however. It's not about the total mass of the platter but rather its moment of inertia. The amount of correction the MkII servo system makes in case of speed variance is related to a fixed value for moment of inertia. The total moment of inertia with the Cu-180 added is almost twice the stock value, so speed correction will be inaccurate, though possibly not audible.
John |
One of the problems with measuring turntables today is that the tools for doing standard DIN tests are no longer available. Sure you can measure noise with an unmodulated groove on a test record, but then you'd only have a number and no meaningful way to compare. The original Panzerholz plinth was done on a lark and designed intuitively (although after a great deal of research). It worked so well that it was decided to share it with others. You really have to hear it to appreciate it. It is impossible for me to imagine how it could be improved upon. I don't think it could even be made more compact. |
