Agoners: Need Advice! Have 3K to spend on an Amp, what do I do with no way to audition?

Steve, 

I see this thread hasn't been added to in 2 years, but I figured I would toss in my thoughts &, potentially, resurrect it because there is some stellar info in it!

I would like to throw my "chosen path" to nirvana out there for thoughtful consideration.  Like most folks, my budget was limited [was not blessed with a golden spoon at birth & my profession required YEARS of education & training - lots of "poor years"], so I adapted by purchasing used equipment, initially from eBay <YUCK!> & now almost exclusively from A-gon. Out of that necessity, I discovered that it is massive fun to buy quality used equipment [that I could have NEVER afforded new], use it and either resell it or keep it, if I fell in love with it.  In fact, I even set up a separate checking account for my 'toy fund' - wife fully knowledgeable and very supportive [she has her own expensive hobby- photography].

I actually enjoyed the trade-in/trade-out ability to audition & play with equipment I have lusted for for year to be so much fun, I decided to keep that up.  Now that I am years into my profession, I am extremely fortunate to be able to afford much of the new, high-end stuff.  But, I grew up poor & that impact is deep.  So, I choose to buy/trade/resell/keep high-end used equipment & divert that extra capital towards other things that make my heart smile: charitable support of organizations that support & assist people-in-need & peoples-at-risk.  By no means is my musical enjoyment compromised + I am supporting good works to the benefit of others AND I am setting an example on how to conduct yourself as a good citizen of our world & culture to my daughters.  Talk about a WIN-WIN-WIN situation!

If you truly are dedicated to purchasing something new, instead of the 'big name' brands, google for small-shop craftsmen type vendors/builders.  Yes, substantially more challenging, but again my intrinsic frugality speaks, you're supporting individuals at the local level who still treat their work as a personal investment in an art form.  Odyssey comes to mine as does Emotiva [not truly in the league of Odyssey, but damned nice bang for the buck], as does ModWright [a bit pricier].
Good luck & I hope whomever reads my lengthy response derives some benefit.
http://www.odysseyaudio.com/index.html

Love McIntosh, just can't quite afford it!

Audio Classics in Vestal, New York.

All sortsa pre-owned monsters, and
new stuff, but $3K is not gonna carry
much weight in the NIB class.

Are you a McIntosh lover or hater?

Even their military surplus equipment is
elegant. 

Ended up purchasing a Parasound     A-21 on Saturday, loved the sound, price is great. Loved the rear gain controls for bi-amp adjustments in the future. Great power for jamming out, and low volume listening; had great depth and control. Listed to it on Martin Logans, and KEF Blades.  Loved the Martin Logan sound much better. Can't wait to here it on my 802s when it arrives. John Curl did it right... And for a great price!

Yes Bryston is also very good, but sound wise (in my book) it is still miles behind Pass.

Want to do even better than Pass?
Burmester may be a contender (from 956 to up) but that may already be a taste war........?

+1 for Bryston. I have a 25 year old 3B still running perfectly. Had it serviced at Bryston a few years ago to give it a clean bill of health. I've never experienced better customer service than with Bryston.

The 20 year warranty mentioned above is also transferable between owners.

We all accept Your option but the McCormack (maybe new) is not in the same realm as Pass Labs (maybe old) ...

As others have mentioned, my vote would be for a 2nd hand McCormack DNA500. There is one FS on Canuck Audio Mart at the moment asking $3kUS ($4kCAD), but if you keep an eye on USA Audio Mart they come up FS fairly regularly - http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649325741-mccormack-dna500/

<Krell-Pass owner disclaimer>

Have owned  KAV-2250  and FPB line. For $3k I would take Pass X series any day over the Krell.

<Krell dealer disclaimer>
At $3k you could grab a KAV-2250 and have money left over or possible even an EV2250e if you found a crazy deal.  They have Krell control, Krell bass, load of detail, separation, transparency, soundstage, musicality, realness, etc.  Good luck on your search.  :-)

John, plinius  are very reliable, I have mine the. Original sa100, I choose between the pass lab too, they are both excellent amp, I choose the Plinius I think because of the tube sound and speed, either one can't go wrong..

I agree with the side by side comparison gentlemen, I have two in mind for this s right now, and fortunately, both companies offer 30 day trials!   Thanks!

I find it difficult to try one amp at a time and then move on to another and then go by memory of the sonics of the first one.

Totally agree, phd.This led to the Claylamack playoff in my system.   Without a direct comparison, it would have been very difficult for me to reliably choose which of the three fine amplifiers I enjoyed the most.

When you narrow your search down to a couple of amps it would be great if you could afford to do a side by side comparison of these amps in your system. I find it difficult to try one amp at a time and then move on to another and then go by memory of the sonics of the first one.

Something you can audition locally:

Audio Research DS225 stereo power amp, silver
- solid state ARC amp delivering over 200 watts per channel with much of the beauty of their tube amps. Cool-running and compact. - used - $2700

http://audioconceptsonline.com/demo%20used.htm

Looks like they have a matching pream for sale also.  Personally I am using a Pass INT-150.  Paid a little over $3k for it used.  Lots of good choices  though.

jafant,
I will check out John Fort Audio, thank you for the tip! I've received many recommendations for the Parasound Halo A21, that's the top contender for me right now.

@silverfoxtv1800  Yes, a good amp or better yet, good monoblock amps will clearly surpass any receiver. There are too many compromises with too much going on in one box(e.g. separating power supplies reduces noise). You need to do some listening to some better systems and decide for yourself. Cheers,
Spencer

if this is a 30 year amp, you simply need to audition...milpal likes the A21, I do not, and much prefer the Odyssey's - we're both right !!!

IF you want a brand new one, then you should simply buy a Parasound A21 and spend rest of the money for buying music or upgrading other components in your system.

minorl-

offers poor advice.  Of course the customer has a right to change his mind if he does not like the gear or audition.

cohicks4

there are several excellent Audio shops in the Dallas/Ft Worth area.
Have you been to John Fort Audio? 

i dont see how you can get any of the amps you listed for 3K, even second hand. If you want one that does it all, does it well if not very well, will last......., and stays in the 3K, there is the Benchmark AHB2 which is just quite incredible. However, the speakers being the most decisive equipment in a system, it will also depend greatly on them.

Pass labs if you can find one that’s not over 5 yes old in your price range.

bassdude,

Why must Pass Labs be less than 5 years old?

I have owned many Pass amps including some Alephs from early 90`s. The reliability is second to none. They are made to last from father to son.

Pass labs if you can find one that’s not over 5 yes old in your price range.

2nd would be Parasound Halo A21 - simply Superb! Got 3 of them!

3rd would be "ClassDAudio" SDS 470C - AMAZING SS + TUBE sound for $700 (1st if you consider the value) - it can drive anything well.  Use it the most.
http://www.classdaudio.com/sds-series-amplifiers/sds-470c-class-d-audio-power-amplifier/

You mentioned, "no audition" as a concern.  Both Odyssey and Sanders(Magtech) offer thirty day, no questions returns.  Klaus' amps are made right here in the Indiana and fit well within your budget.

Most of you have been a great help, thank you especially to those who actually understood my needs, and offered solid advice. You now have me watching a few additional brands/models I was unaware of. This forum has been an overwhelming success for me. I'll see you all around Agon...thanks again!
Steve

Thought I'd throw out another recommendation for klaus at odyssey.. kismet reference in the cheaper khartago case stereo amp would be a safe choice and they are built to last, 20 year warranty.  sound is very refined and liquid/no fatigue

My first post, so be gentle.  I just ordered a Job Integrated (designed and manufactured by Goldmund), and it will power Vandersteen Treo CT's.  The amp includes a very good DAC, according to the Six moons review, and for $1700, should prove to be a bargain.  I'll post more after listening for awhile, but am very excited.  Front ended with Tidal/Roon and Sonore Microrendu (I just stream, but have some files on a usb drive as well).  

Don Ivey

If you have a good receiver does a amp really give you that much better sound?

Sorry 2 channel is $1000

Try the new Ming Da tube amps . There reliable the clarity is rare at the price .
 368 KT 120 or the KT150 intergraded amps , can be used as an amp alone

How about buying new...the Emotiva XPA Gen3 2 channel to start you can add more channels later.....2 channel is $2000

Have you heard of the Sanders Magtech, its as good if not better than most of the amps mentioned here AND you can demo one in your house for free, call up Roger at Sanders Sound and try one for 30 days then send it back, if  you like how it sounds look for a used one on Audiogon which go for around 3k.  

I used to sell B&W 802's and they tend to be a bit power/current hungry (4ohms?) so it is possible that the midrange harsh qualities are a bit of artifacts from your other gear...  or your room acoustics... or aging drivers... I had found them to be a fairly "polite" sounding speaker during that era of audio...

I loved the Mark Levinson gear driving those speakers and sold a lot of systems matched that way... hard beat ML build quality... The camac connecters were a little off beat but ultra high quality... Just not compatible with everything else which was mostly RCA inputs and duel banana outputs... not so the ML gear that I remember...  The ML3 as mentioned above was a big serious amp of that era yet, to my ears the 23.5's would be better and there is the problem... "to my ears" it's your ears that count and those ML amps do weigh a lot to ship..  

I love ARC amps too, listening to an old SS ARC 100.2 now and they are proud to offer excellent service on their products... Many to choose from but you will probably find you need an amp with high current capabilities and even used ARC amps can be pricey... do consider them though...   BTW.. It's even possible to talk to a human when you call them...

last but certainly not least...

A big YES to the Brystons for your speakers... I used to sell those too... Not all clients had the $$$$ for the ML gear so Bryston was often my go gear for those B&W 802's
I have an old Bryston 3B that still sounds amazing and had to be serviced a few years back for a wimpy channel... it was past the 20 year warranty and yet I think they charged me for the shipping,  a new box, and not the repairs... A truly reputable company... for those 802's I feel you would be best off with the 200wpc version, the 4B, to get that solid bottom end happening... Brystons are a high current, high damping factor, fast rise time amp always producing much more than their rated power on the test bench... The newer models are of course sweeter sounding so look into those for sure... You can find a used Bryston 4B SST2 with single ended and balanced inputs in your price range and probably still under warranty to boot.  Then I suggest you audition some various cables in your system to see if any remaining midrange hash you hear is caused by cable artifacts... it can be a bit neurotic but also gratifying. 

For the money you have budgeted for an Amp. I'd go Adcom. I've heard quite a few 3K+ rigs and the Adcom Amps are hard to beat. One of my favorites was the GFA-555II...I'm bi-amping with 2 Adcom GFA-5802's and love them. Those Amps would drive a short. There are some great used units on ebay. If I had the money? I'd buy the latest Adcom flagship...The GFA-575se.

Manufacturer-direct is one option. I have and recommend highly the Gilmore Audio Raptor Class D monoblock pair at $2500 . He's a gem to work with and these have both single-ended and balanced inputs . Power 250 watts/ ch. @ 8 ohms , 500 @4 ohms . They worked well with my Klipsch speakers and now also with my Spatial Audio Hologram M3 Turbo S . Most satisfying sound I've heard .

There's a pair of PrimaLuna Prologue Premium monoblocks on Audiogon for just over $3K.  A friend has them, and they're lovely. 

Don't forget to check out a Musical Fidelity M6si.

Given your 3K budget, I'd venture to say some of your narrowed down choices are out of contention.

Plinius sa100 lll  one available on Agon $2100 extra $900 buy HF reveal Cables.one of the best, I prefer this amp to all the amps above.

Plinius makes some very good amps, no doubt. I was considering a SA-103 before I bought my Pass Labs XA-100.5's.

However, especially on older models, service is a concern. Possible cap replacement, etc.
When I contacted Plinius through their website with a question regarding the SA-103, it took over 6 weeks just to get a reply.
Sorry, but I need better service than that. If it takes over 6 weeks to answer an email, I could just imagine it would take at least 6 months to get any service done.

Many great amps. I'll stick with ones I can get serviced in the USA.
If I lived in New Zealand, I would grab a Plinius in a heartbeat.

HF cables are pretty good too. I'm using a couple pairs of the CT-1E interconnects.

Plinius sa100 lll  one available on Agon $2100 extra $900 buy HF reveal Cables.one of the best, I prefer this amp to all the amps above.

BTW, Audio Concepts used to have a good used equipment selection...

many/most of the amps being discussed are available for audition in Dallas, starting with Audio Concepts. Not familiar with Ft. Worth but it's close. Certainly if you're looking for a 30+ year amp, it's well worth the trip.  Might even be fun.

You mentioned class D amps.   I have Nuforce Ref 9 V3 SE monoblock amps.   They put out 175 watts per channel and have great sound.  Even better is the new company that is a spin off of Nuforce--Nuprime.   They make an outstanding amp that is an 8 channel amp, but you can bridge 2 of each adjacent channels and have 4 channels of 400 watts per or just use 4 of the channels and have 400 watts per channel in stereo.  The kicker is that in this last formation, the amp actually sounds better than in the 200 watt per mode.  If you read up on the Nuprime MCH-K38 amp, you'll see that it IS the sound you want in all ways and the B&W speakers will love the extra power reserves the K-38 will give.  Brand new this amp is just under the $3000 mark.  You'll get great dynamics, bass airy highs with tremendous definition, and the mids have a very tube like quality.   Contact John Casler about the Nuprime on Audio Circle.   John says this amp is the best sounding amp he has ever had in his system.   He's had quite a few good amps to use over the years.  

If you actually want the amp to be your last one AND work for 30 years with no issues, then you should go with a McIntosh. (this is what Mac does best....Amps!). Just make sure its a newer double balanced design. (lol newer..they have been making these for 15 yrs or more). Today McIntosh makes very expensive quad balanced designs that are high power (500w 1000w 1200w 2000w), so the 200 to 300 watt ones are going to be pre owned like the MC352 350wx2 or MC402 400wx2. Older designs like the MC2255 250wx2 and non Autoformer (direct coupled) designs like the MC7200 200wx2 stay away from. Find one of the amps I mentioned and the sound will be exactly as you described in your post...Big,wide,detailed,warm,no harshness whatsoever, with great low end control, tightness and excellent tonal balance. The journey is half the fun! :-)


Matt M

To echo what someone said above a great strategy is to buy used, tons of great SS amps in your price range and below. Buy smart and resell and try something else until you settle on your final amp. If done right it can really cost little above your initial outlay. Plus its fun!

Bryston 7Bs for your 802s

I second the Odyssey. It is the best sounding amp to ever grace my living room and there isn’t much out there for under 5 grand that will compete (except for Liberty Audio). I have the Stratos stereo extreme that you can get new from Odyssey for around 2500.00. Although Klaus rates the amp at 160wpc, it has much more power than that (very conservatively rated) with huge power reserves. I bought my amp (he custom builds them for you) without ever listening to it and couldn’t be happier. I have had mine for 7 years and it’s in my 45K two channel system and I have no desire to change. I like it better than the 5,500.00 Magtech amp which a friend brought over to my home for me to audition.