I have never seen bare copper wire ends being reccommended as they will oxidize quickly. After years of trial and error I have found that $40.00 cables pretty much sound like $40.00 cables. I have found that cables are a very important component and should not be taken lightly. Why spend thousands of dollars on components and then start scrimping on cables? Good plug for MGD though.
Derrick, as you might have gathered from some of my posts, i have always had a preference towards solid wire. I am intrigued by this three wire configuration though. How are these hooked up ? Two positives / one negative, two negative / one positive, one pos / one neg / one floating or telescoped, etc ???
As to bass performance, i would expect it to be "light & punchy" but lacking in overall weight and extension. Mids and treble should be pretty good with a high level of "clarity" while sounding "unstrained" with a very "free" or "natural" presentation. How far off am i ? Sean
After years of trial and error I have found that cables are highly system dependent no matter what they cost. The cost of $40 or $4000 has little to do with how they sound with your system. You have evidently found a set of cables with properties that are a good match for your other components. That is all you can hope for.
Those who adhere to the "more money equals better sound" theory are doomed to listen to their systems constantly longing for something they cannot afford. There will always be a cable dealer willing to charge as much he thinks he can get. I have no problem with that.
Yes, cables make a difference because their electrical properties are different. Spending more money does not mean you are going to get a set of properties that blend any better with your system.
The point I was trying to make is that I would first question the advise of anyone who is reccommending the use bare copper leaders without at least coating with some solder to stop oxidation or suggesting very regular cleaning. I would also question the strategy of trying bargain cables and hoping for great results. The odds of finding one quickly are small. Herman if you can't hear the difference between $40 cables and $4000 cables I have a really nice pair of cables I could sell you for as little as $3000. They may be a good match for your system. I'll rewire my lamp after your check clears.
Bravo, Herman, Bravo !!!! Thank you for an honest and accurate appraisal that just so happens to agree with my personal point of view : )
The "synergy" that Derrick "stumbled" upon is no mistake. He is using cables, speakers, racks and room treatments from the same manufacturer. Obviously, a "total system approach" has a lot of benefits to it. Sean
Sean: I'd be happy to sell you a pair as well.
My Dear Msnloeth, I can hear the difference between many different cables. I stated my belief that cables do indeed make a difference in my previous post.
My point is that the equation "more expensive = sounds better" is not always true. I have auditioned expensive cables in my system that sounded like crap and much cheaper cables that sounded very nice. These same cables could give the opposite result in another system.
Those that believe the only way to achieve audio nirvana is to buy the most expensive components they can afford are far less likely to suceed than those who seek to find a system of synergistic components no matter what they cost. I hope for your sake that you are not a member of the first group.
By the way, I have read many posts by Sean but have just now realized how wise he is. I think I'll go listen to a record on my $30,000 worth of components wired together with $500 worth of cables. Ahhhhhhhhhhh, that sounds great.
Actually, for the record, from my experiences with some of the newer 6/9's copper(or better???...) wire that now seems to be more the norm in calbes that are coming out now, you don't really need to terminate these cables like you used to!!! It appears the the higher purity copper wire,like the high purity 99.999999% stuff, doesn't really oxidize!!!..for any practical purposes. The problem with oxidization on the old cables and wires, was that the crud and impurities in the wire were what corroded and oxydized! The newer 6/9's type coppers, for instance, are 100X's(or 1000,I forget) more pure than the old stuff, and there for don't degrade!
In fact, I have some home made 6/9's copper speaker terminal jumpers that I use that are absolutely mint looking!....not a hint of oxydizing! They also sound as good as day one(a few months old). I also have a pair of older jumpers, made from older OFC copper speaker wires, that oxydized really really quickly!...I don't use em any more.
I also have a budy who used the Harmonic Tech Pro 9 speaker wires, that use the 6/9's copper, which were missing spades on some ends, just connected bare wire. They were on his system like that for at least a couple of years that way, and not a sign of oxydization anywhere!
So, My theory is that, if the guy recommended just bar wire, and the wire is high purity stuff, he probably will do just fine if he tightens em down good. Also, the higher purity copper cables may just be a better sound over all than his older cables!...maybe.
Yes, then again, the system may or may not be capable of revealing that much of the benefits of better cables, and needs some upgrading or help..who knows.
But, I did pick up some 6/9's copper spool wire the other day that sounds better than a lot of much more expensive older high end cables I used to use!...so it's all possible I guess. You just gotta play around with this stuff to find out I guess. However, I don't think that I would ever ever use any speaker wires and cables that didn't have at least 6/9's copper or silver in it!(there's also 7/9's sivler) They probably sound better for one, and I don't think I'll have to wory about oxidizing any time soon!
Hi Justlisten, I use the Sakura OTA cable. No spades just bare wire. Yes, I have to clean them from time to time. The OTA cable replaced cable that retails for over $10,000.
Hi Herman, I bet I would like your cable over Msnioeth cables. Sounds like Herman listens with his ears and not how much the cable costs. Let me guess msnioeth, do you use Nordmitrnsp? I bet you came to your conclusions from some audio reviewer. I do agree with you msnioeth that cable is very important and should not be taken lightly. Although msnioeth, I have no doubt that YOU have been TAKEN. Taken for a ride.
the wire are 3 twisted runs of cable (the wire is silver) for each lead. So there are 4 runs of 3 twisted wires. I in no way meant this thread to be a plug for MGD or to suggest that I am trying to skimp on costs in my system. I was buying a MGD rack and a person their Mark suggested I try these $40 cables. I did, as I figure if they sucked, it would be worth an evenings worth of entertainment for $40. As it turns out, it will pay off, as I am putting my Yamamura 4000s up for sale. Sean you are also spot on on your description of the sound, the bass actually isnt bad at all, the only reason why I thought it may lack is I played a track from the Annie Lennox "Diva" cd, THE GIFT, and my room didnt reverberate as it usualy does during the bass notes. Overall, the bass in the MgDs have tempo to it. This isnt meant to create a cable debate, but to give listenters out there a chance to try some cables that may do wonders all for less than the price dinner and a movie.
Herman: I've never spent a lot of money on cables. I use Goertz Micro Purl Silver IC's everywhere and Straightwire Maestro II speaker cables (for now). But I also have at least 100lbs. of other cables in my closet. As I've tried more expensive cables, they have improved the sound. I'm done with cables for now but for me at least, I had no luck finding a budget cable that performed the way I wanted it to. Interesting to hear that the newer copper does not oxidize quickly. Everything I've read about that suggested otherwise. I may very well give it a try as my speakers would actually accept bare wire more easily than spades. Justlisten: That has to be a great price for solid silver cables. Good luck with them.
Were the Yamamura a high impedence cable and the new ones lower? That might explain the bass. Do you use SS or tubes Justlisten?
Sincerely, I remain
Brulee: Why so defensive? Why would I have been taken for a ride? Sounds like you bought $10,000 cables you didn't audition first and then replaced with others. Did you buy them based on reviews? Now to me that is really quite a ride.
My system is posted in Virtual Systems in full, in brief:
Fourier Panthere 190W Monoblock OTLs highly Modified
Klimo Merlin Preamp (tube)
Counterpoint Sa9 phono
Audiologic 34 DAC
Audiomeca Mephisto transport
Michael Green Chameleon 3s speakers
I guess to summarize my post, If some one brought these cables over after wrapping them in some thick garden hose cover and slapping some fancy Black Sheath on the outside AND they sounded in my system the way they do and offered to sell them to me for say $300, $400 maybe even $500 I would probably jump at them...for the $40 I paid, I think it is a steal, and I don't know why, as it lacks a nice big pretty spade, doesnt take up 10 cubic feet of area behind my amps. Hopefully, and I never knew, and learned something, they won't oxidize quickly, however, If they do, I plan on trimming them dowm bit by bit as they are now 10ft. and I only need a run of 3 ft.
Keriadums-First of all very unusual moniker, what the hell does it mean??? Secondly copper as pure as your stating I believe was 99.99999% pure is only available from 2 mining plants in the world and doesn't have the typical "tainted" copper color, it is also typically very expensive(for copper anyway), it is usually pink-and when I say pink I mean pink not bronzish with a hue of pink i.e. it is very appearant.
Justlisten-Now perhaps these cables as a whole system approach seem to be giving you good results, but I have noticed that high end cables sound just that high end, and cheap cables sound well like cheap cables-lifeless, dull no exhuberance. And silver forget that, ear piecing in my system, however with all things audio YMMV. I used to use copper cables that where around $600 per pair and recently upgraded to cables that are $2800 a pair and the difference was very appearant-that is to say some of my non-audiophile friends asked what I had changed. So it isn't just me, and I am planning yet another speaker cable upgrade in fall(the ones I am using are borrowed from a friend, fully broken in) and they are a little over 3k and sound simply amazing to me worth every penny. So yea I am agreeing with a post Sean made a while ago about there has to be a way to show on test equipment there are measureable differences in cables, then compound that by a high resolution system and there are huge differences.
I don't think Upgrade allways means more $$ as Herman and Sean says. I don't fully agree with "synergy" always being the answer either. (I used to own an all Pioneer rack system in the 80s) Could it be that my mostly tubed based system needed some forward sounding cable? Or could it be that underneath all that fancy window dressing is 3 similar twisted cables? There is another thread here on Audiogon, re a some interesting findings in a YBA Preamp. There have been some people who have also gutted MIT Impedence Boxes, what they found was pretty interesting. Perception? It really is interesting when some people seek out to upgrade an item, a prerequisite is more money.
Justlisten-Interesting point you bring up, though not always true, I am planning on getting a new CD player in spring and it is significantly less then my current digital system and sounds much much better. Also I think I would upgrade speakers to something with a slightly lower msrp then what I am using and get better performance. Though I have a friend at the moment is looking to blow 30k on speakers for no better reason then he feels that more money will buy better or more suiting speakers for his system, his current speakers are 12k, significant price increase for perhaps not that much of an increase in performance.
What make 6DJ8 is best sounding in preamps
Sorry Msnloetn,I Didn't mean to be so rude. I don't put faith in any review or reviewer. I guess I took offence to your comments on bare wire. Give me an email some time and we will talk. Again, sorry for my rudeness.
Justlisten: Please try to post a follow up on these cables (the sound) after they get 100 hours of playing time on them. At the price they may be silver plated copper as they are too inexpensive to be 120' of 20 gage silver wire. What really matters is the sound though.
Huh? The oxidation rate of copper in a controlled atmosphere is SLOWED by having the copper purer? Gimme a break, huh? The addition of other elements usually SLOWS the oxidation rate (stainless steel is a good example).
Six 9s copper may LOOK shinier, but I doubt that its surface layer is anything but non-conductive oxide. Just like aluminum...and UNLIKE silver.
Subaruguru-I can not testify either way about copper oxidation based on purity, because I don't know. I was pointing out that the very true copper is rareish, and I doubt used in a cable that costs that little, if you have a chance look at a jena labs cable they use very pure copper and it is not bronze but more of a pink color.
Try the two TINY solid-core silver wires in Clear Day single runs and prepare to sell whatever cable you have as whatever price. Just replaced a set of $1,650 Audioquest Gibralter (their best copper) with a pair of $150 single run Clear Day silver... NO CONTEST.
The speaker cable made up of small gauge silver or copper, or silver coated copper, is not exactly new. Kimber, Audioquest and Morrow have variations of this to great results, as does the above mentioned Clear day.
Smaller gauge wire removes the skin effect issue as long as they are individually insulated.
So, everything is great about the $40.00 cables EXCEPT bass definition?
While its true that price isn't always an indicator of performance, a truly great cable shouldn't call attention to itself. Same with phono cartridges.
Just sayin' ...
Pretty good points all around guys. Remember, never buy anything w/o a proper audition.
..another point about ClearDay...... Paul has been willing to send out to the interested party, a review set of cables without charge to hear if indeed ClearDay works well in the system. Even if you have no interest in cable, an offer to listen to something else for evaluation is sure tempting. Remember that all cable sounds different in different systems. Sometimes inexpensive cable "just works".